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 Old vs. New - Battle of the Beasts

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Old vs. New?
The Old Warp Beasts eat Marines for Breakfast.
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
The New Beastmasters have more options and are harder to kill.
79%
 79% [ 23 ]
I just love gribbly beasts either way, I can't decide.
7%
 7% [ 2 ]
I field RJBs, let's see how some tentacle coated dogs deal with 500 kmh blade bearing jetbikes cutting them apart. Not so well, do they!?!
14%
 14% [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 29
 

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Old vs. New - Battle of the Beasts   Fri Mar 30 2012, 00:48



Greetings and welcome to Battle 5 of Old vs. New.

It's invariable thatsome entries, though obviously connected, now represent VASTLY different options. Such is the situation now. The old (and specialized) Warp Beast Packs face off against the intriguing multi-model assortment available in the Beastmasters. Can old scar covered Wyches compete with new mask wearing hellboard riders? Can googly-eye Warp Beasts ever cope with the swarming beaks of the Razorwings?

Let's find out!

Slot and Cost

As usual, the first basic question is - did they change the cost of the model, and is the model still in the same slot of the codex?

The slots are different now. The Warp Beasts were, officially, an Elite Slot option (though they were also a free pick and didn't count against your Force Org limit of 3 Elites, which is pretty fancy). As a negative to that you could only field one squad per army (except in Wych Armies, where it was 1 per unit of Wyches) and you needed to field a unit of Wyches to field a unit of Warp Beasts...that said, you didn't really ever not want Wyches when fielding Beasts so it was a pretty 'meh' restriction. The new Beastmasters occupy a Fast Attack slot...which is also pretty neat because they have no real competition clogging those spots.

That said, 'free slot' is obviously better than 'FA slot' even if for free slot you had to take one unit of Wyches (which, if you wanted Beasts for h2h power you were probably taking Wyches anyway), so overall it's a downgrade.

This is the first battle where a direct discussion of points is...difficult. After all, now we are looking at two totally different sorts of things. As such (as I suspect I'll end up doing a lot in this battle) I'll just try to compare the closest equivalents - in this case, Beastmaster vs. Beastmaster and Warp Beast vs. Khymarae.

Beastmasters used to be 15 points a model, now they're 12.
We'll explain how that isn't as big of a win as you might think below, but as a basic core consideration it's good for the New.

Warp Beasts were 12, and the Khymerae maintain that 12. The other beasts have different costs, but there's no way to say if those are better or worse.

With costs remaining mostly the same and with the advantage that is 'free slot' I'm basically considering Old to be the winner here, but it's by a thin margin.

Advantage? - Old!

Stats

This should be an easy one to compare. Did they take away or add to the stat line?

The Old Beastmaster
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3 1 6 1 8 6+

The New Beaastmaster
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3 1 6 1 8 5+

At a quick glance you're going to say 'new Beastmaster obv. wins, lawl' but that isn't quite true. Yes, he has a slightly better save and a skyboard, whereas the old Beastmaster is footslogging, so...how can he not win with a 5+ save vs. 6+ and everything else being the same?

Well, it's not the same. Y'see, the old Beastmaster got a 12" assault drug and so was also just as fast as his Beasts, and he also got an Agoniser.
Stock.
Y'know, that weapon that cost 20 points? For the cost of a 15 point model? Yeah...

What about the gribbly beasts?

The Old Warp Beasts
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 0 4 3 1 5 3 3 6+

The New Khymerae
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 0 4 3 1 6 3 5 6+/4++

So, for the same cost the Khymerae get +1 Initiative and a 4++ save?
Ouch.
Hellooooo codex creep.

So, free Aggie versus slightly better init and a 4++. The Init part is really a bit of a wash, generally most things in the game are 4 Init or lower, so a 5 or a 6 means you're swinging first - and honestly having the Aggie be on a different init step is actually an advantage. On the flip side, the 4++ is MASSIVE for the amount of damage it will allow the Khymerae to shrug off as compared to their brethren.

I'm giving the edge to making Beasts into pseudo Wych units.

Advantage? - New!

Wargear

What good are stats without awesome weapons to use them with?

New

The Beastmasters themselves have some options, though limited, are all pretty decent. It's all the usual 'you're a DE close combat character' sort of stuff. Get an Aggie, get a V. Blade, ect. ect. Now, you're limited to only one per squad and also have to buy up multiple Beastmasters as you go.

The real reason for that is to unlock all the Beasts available. We're talking a lot about the Khymerae here simply because, trust me, Khymerae = Warp Beast with new name but otherwise basically the same thing, hur, hur, we changed the name...BECAUSE! (not that I'm bitter). Anyway, a lot of the other Beasts are awesomesauce too. The Flocks are monsters of absorbing abuse and letting you roll handfuls of dice. Meanwhile the Clawed Fiend has some interesting tactical advantages and is, I think, debatable as superior to taking Khymerae (at least beyond the first 5).

Lots of options doth the new Beasts have, and - as you know - I like me my options.


Old

Have I described how awesome the Armory was yet? I sorta feel I might have, but let me clue you in...IT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE OLD BEASTMASTERS COULDN'T USE IT.

You got your free discount Aggie, yes, and you could choose how many Beasts you wanted (3-5) and that was that.
It was a skirmish assault unit, that's what it did, that's all it did, and thank you very much for visiting.

--------------------------------------

I think this is literally the first time the New Codex has won me over on 'options'. Now, yes, they'll be the more expensive unit and really do pay for those options and soak up an actual Org slot to do it with...but they can do skirmish assault, death star, or even tarpit unit all quite well. Also, though it's not by much, they are *slightly* more controlable than Warp Beasts - because they didn't have the old Frenzy rules going (not that those ever came up much, but hey...)

Advantage? - New!


Face to Face in Battle!

If I was to do a maxed point brawl then the Old Beasts might as well not even bother walking out onto the table - they can't compete. Their max build is 87 points. New Beastmasters can build up to 200+ pretty easy. So, as with some other battles, let's have them compete at the max capacity of the lesser option.

Which unit is the better small skirmisher?

Old Beastmaster w. 5 Warp Beasts = 87 points
New Beastmaster w. 5 Khymerae = 92 points

Old Beasts get the charge

Khymerae swing at Init 6 along with Beastmasters from both sides.

15 Khymarae attacks - 7.5 hit - 5 wound - 4.16 Warp Beasts die.
Aggie swings - 2 attacks - 1 hit - .5 wounds - .25 Khymarae die
New Beastmaster swings - 1 attack - .5 hit - .25 wounds...some really small number gets through.

Wow - and that fight is already pretty much over, the one remaining Beast (2 if you sack the Beastmaster to the initial risk of death from wounds) will have 8 swings, 4 hits, and 2.6 wounds with 1.3 getting through after saves. Yeah, they'll bust up the unit but are basically wiped before they can deal with the New Beastmasters.

Meanwhile, if the new Beastmasters get the assault - they basically do what melee skirmishers want to do, and that's wipe the other unit out before they get to swing.

Advantage? - New!

=================================
=================================

So that's my breakdown.

This is a first in a couple of ways. It's the first time a New unit has provided more battlefield options, and also the first time the New unit was unquestionably superior in h2h combat to its replacee. The big win here is the initiative issue, that +1 just dictates the flow and showcases the fragility of the old Beasts. Against MEQ both of these units would perform about the same, though again (with 4++ saves) the new ones would still be overall superior at the job.

Plus, you then have all the other options that are available. The new Beastmasters provide a plethora of builds and, indeed, I think there are multiple good builds available to them. The Warp Beasts have one build, and though it is good (and, despite how bad of a drubbing they took - it is really quite good at its job still as compared to the New Beastmasters - basically a free power weapon and being dirt cheap for a lot of attacks - for an identical damage output the New Beastmasters would be paying 25 more points...which is telling)

That all said - the New are just about as good at affordable skirmishing, and do everything else markedly better (because the Old can't even compete)

Winner in my mind - New Beastmasters.

That's my call - what's yours?

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Beasts   Fri Mar 30 2012, 01:16

New beast unit hands down. In the last codex DE they were terrible.

Baron Sathonyx with a Beastmaster unit i wouldnt leave home without it. Barons gets you first turn and the beasts and flocks soak up fire.

What im looking forward to most is how well the beast units do in 6th edition.
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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Beasts   Fri Mar 30 2012, 01:48

I was never tempted to field them ten years ago. Now, I want them and can't afford them Evil or Very Mad I plan on doing a unit for the Archon's Challenge if I can find a buyer for a good kidney...

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Beasts   Fri Mar 30 2012, 02:09

Evil Space Elves wrote:
I was never tempted to field them ten years ago.
They were pretty functional back under 4th edition when footslogging was more viable and you didn't have pile in moves so you could fight only part of a unit and then skunk them via combat resolution.

But, yeah, under 5th even people who loved them just seemed to call them a good distraction unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Beasts   Fri Mar 30 2012, 02:16

Voted new because....Razorwings + Khymera = Profit Twisted Evil

Seriously, I've looked at this unit and so many times think "Why couldn't they replace The Decapitator for a Beastmaster character who made them Troops"... Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Beasts   Fri Mar 30 2012, 02:37

In a world where Doomrider and Stumper Muskstart have disappeared - I'm actually oddly pleased that Decapitator lives on...even if I never plan on fielding him ever.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Beasts   Fri Mar 30 2012, 03:10

Thor665 wrote:
In a world where Doomrider and Stumper Muskstart have disappeared - I'm actually oddly pleased that Decapitator lives on...even if I never plan on fielding him ever.
HOT DAMN! A Stumper Muckstart reference! I'm buying a lottery ticket! I remember doing a conversion for him back in 95'....ah, I'm old Rolling Eyes Mad

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Beasts   Fri Mar 30 2012, 04:04

Evil Space Elves wrote:
I was never tempted to field them ten years ago. Now, I want them and can't afford them Evil or Very Mad I plan on doing a unit for the Archon's Challenge if I can find a buyer for a good kidney...

I'm pretty sure a cheap way of doing them could be to buy some chaos hounds or zombie dire wolves.

Thor665 wrote:
In a world where Doomrider and Stumper Muskstart have disappeared - I'm actually oddly pleased that Decapitator lives on...even if I never plan on fielding him ever.

kruellagh going was a shame. the model was decent. i still prefer the old models.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Beasts   Fri Mar 30 2012, 04:12

@ESE - Just wait, later I'll bring up Ollanius and gripe about the silliness that is Derp Abnett making him an immortal dork-wad. Wink

As some additional cheap option thoughts to Farmer's I actually use old Warp Beasts as an affordable option for Kymarae, and was able to get three bases of Razorwings out of a pack of one. I've also seen some good stuff done with bat swarm miniatures and even old Scaraabs (the *old* Scarabs, the metal ones with wings).


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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Beasts   Fri Mar 30 2012, 04:33

Thor665 wrote:
@ESE - Just wait, later I'll bring up Ollanius and gripe about the silliness that is Derp Abnett making him an immortal dork-wad. Wink
Well played sir, well played Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Beasts   Fri Mar 30 2012, 15:19

Old ones win hands down. That 4++ makes a huge difference, and you didnt even include razorwings (the gems of beasts) Sadly though I miss my free agoniser. The current Beastmaster even comes with one base (although I guess its just a CCW now)

Although my vote went to the gag vote. But that is because old or new, I always use Reavers Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Beasts   Fri Mar 30 2012, 15:59

Shadows Revenge wrote:
Old ones win hands down. That 4++ makes a huge difference, and you didnt even include razorwings (the gems of beasts)
As noted, I was just trying to match them up as close as possible. I guess I could have done 2x Beastmasters + 4x Razorwings = 84 points.

Warp Beasts get charge

All the Beastmasters go first;

New get 4 swings, 2 hits, 1 wounds, .833 Warp Beasts die.
Old gets 3 swings, 1.5 hit, .75 wound

Then beasts and birds.

Warp Beasts get 16-20 swings (depending on what you risked to the wound above), 8-10 hits - 5.33-6.66 wounds - 4.44-5.55 wounds.
Birds get 20 swings - 10 hit - 3.33 wound - 2.77 dead Warp Beasts.

And that's pretty much it again, the Birds are a little less effective at killing the Warp Beasts, but will still tend to win after losing 1-2 of their number (likely 1 with additional wounds to a second) regardless of who gets the charge. So, actually, Khymarae are superior at killing Warp Beasts and the Razorwings will overall absorb more damage.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Beasts   Fri Mar 30 2012, 17:08

I can't get Beast Charge anywhere else.

Vote: NEW

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Beasts   Fri Mar 30 2012, 23:56

Never really liked the old models, I guess they changed the name cos they're trying to separate Commorragh and the webway from the warp.

As the owner of 9 reavers, 10 scourges and 15 hellions the beastmasters don't get a look in (yet, I may get some eventually, if only for the fiend model)

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Beasts   Sat Mar 31 2012, 08:30

Woosh! I think we can call this one a runaway landslide already, I'll try and get up a new poll over the weekend, I should have time.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Beasts   Sat Mar 31 2012, 13:52

hey, its not a full runaway. RJB still have a chance for a comeback Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Beasts   Sun Apr 01 2012, 22:45

Bought some back in the day, but never bothered using them. but now, I love the Razorwings (but like everyone else, need to find a cheaper way to represent them).

New wins without any contest in my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Beasts   Thu Apr 12 2012, 03:42

I have not used them yet but I do have a game coming this weekend and thinking of trying the news ones out.I will have to say I used them all the time in the old codex.Very fast and they could tie up other bad guys.There is something also pretty cool that I dont think you got to.If I rememer right didnt they not take up a slot as long as you had a Wych Squad?I dont remember.So the Jury is still out.Let you know after this weekend.
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