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 Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus

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Old vs. New?
The Wych Lords are going to bend over the new Succubus and spank her.
47%
 47% [ 16 ]
The Succubus crushes the old fuddy-duddies with affordable awesome!
15%
 15% [ 5 ]
Mostly I just love Wychever Wych...see what I did there?
9%
 9% [ 3 ]
Wait, come back to me later, I'm still stuck on that spanking imagery.
29%
 29% [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 34
 

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Tue Mar 13 2012, 19:25


Greetings and welcome to Battle 4 of Old vs. New.

We've already settled the question of the Archon, and the question of the Wyches - but what about where those two aspects combine? Yes, now is the time to assess the leaders of the Cults, the deadly Wych Lords/Succubus


Slot and Cost

As usual, the first basic question is - did they change the cost of the model, and is the model still in the same slot of the codex?

In the Old Codex - the Wych Lord was an HQ choice, just like the current Succubus. Now, the Wych Lord came in two flavors - the Archite and the Dracite. We'll delve into that a little bit more later on - but for the purposes of our discussion here it's probably fairer to discuss the Archite as far as pure cost goes. In any case, the Archite rang up as 70 and the Dracite at 45.

The current Succubus comes in at a somewhat middle split of 65 points.

On a pure point glance obviously the Dracite wins, but to get closer to the current stat line we would need to discuss the Succubus versus the Archite - plus the Succubus has access to, overall, slightly better army wide rules. Consequently, as usual, the New Succubus is a champion of affordable win.

Advantage? - New!

Stats

This should be an easy one to compare. Did they take away or add to the stat line?

The Old Archite
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
6 6 3 3 3 8 3 9 6+/4++

The New Succubus
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
8 6 3 3 3 8 4 9 6+/4++

And, for completeness' sake;

The Old Dracite
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 5 3 3 2 7 2 9 6+/4++

Obvious standouts, the new Succubus got a significant jump in WS to the unearthly level of 8(!) and also got +1 A over her closest competitor, much less the cheaper Dracite. Also, though it is relatively minor, the old Wych Lords had to pay out for their plasma grenades and even pistols and CCWs - whereas the Succubus gets them included in her base cost. The Old Wyches probably had better inherent drug rolls as most of their effects are more powerful than what the Succubus gets, but I don't see that winning this for them considering the WS donks and starting with grenades, pistol, and CCW which really is nice even if it only cost us +3 points overall (and we only ever paid +2 since no one took the CCW).

Another slight wrinkle - back in the day Wyches were Elite only. But by taking an Archite it made your army a Wych Cult army - Wyches would count as Troops (and you could take 6 squads of them) and Warriors would become Elite only options.

Also, though we'll really discuss this more during the Retinue battle - Archites could take a Retinue of Wyches and couldn't take Incubi/Warrior combos. Let me just say, the old Retinues were a thing of amazing and would easily allow the Wych Lord to win any given battle with a Succubus if I allowed them.

The Retinue thing is huge, but hard to quantify fairly, and on the whole I think most will agree that not being obligated to a certain HQ for Wych Troops is a plus, in addition the Succubus is just dang functional and affordable for a great stat line. Possibly one of the best values in any codex.

Advantage? - New!

Wargear

What good are stats without awesome weapons to use them with?

New

We all know she's affodable as sin...but we also all know that this will probably be a pretty quick section when discussing her options.

She can take any one of the 3 Wych weapons - generally speaking no one does this because it's a dumb idea as her other options are better.

She can also nab the workhorse known as the Venom Blade - a decent and affordable option. Or she can go for something fancier with the questionable Electrocorrosive Whip, or a generic power weapon. Finally, there's pretty much the 'yes, she's taking this, just include it in her cost' option - the Agoniser, which is an excellent weapon.

She can also take a Blast Pistol (very little reason to) and has access to Haywire Grenades (very often taken)

That's it - I've literally just discussed every option she has. It's workable, she has a decent selection of h2h options, and really that's what she's built for, so...yeah, that's it.


Old

Have I described how awesome the Armory was yet? I sorta feel I might have, but let me clue you in...IT WAS AWESOME ON A STICK AND WRAPPED IN CHOCOLATE COVERED BACON.

Want a Splinter rifle and a Shadowfield on your 'sniper Archite'? Done.
Want a Punisher and Tormentor Helm for your custom built Archite - Drazhar's Daughter who fights for her father's approval? Easy.
Want to put your Archite on a Skyboard and lead Hellions into battle with a Hellglaive? Posh.
Want to build Peacey McHuggle-poo, the Archite who brings no weapons to battle and just dances around showering love and affection on all? You can do that too.

Let me just spell this out simply - the Old Archite/Drachite had an ungawdly ton of options above and beyond what the New Succubus does. There are dozens of weapons to choose from, multiple defensive tools, and even a massive collection of assorted meta-tools.

Just some highlights;
T.Helm and Punisher combo - +1 Str 2 Handed weapon, and a hat with a gun on it so you still got +1 A anyway because...y'know, screw not having +1 A.
Shadowfields for Archites - 'oh, no, my 2++ save is gone...guess I'll use my 4++ save now!
Jetbikes/Hellboards for Wych Lords - want to get +1 Str and be able to turboboost with a Wych Lord turn 1? Thought so...
WWP for Wych Lords - not a massively used strategy, but at least we had the option of doing it.

Also, we had options that basically duplicated every single option the Succubus has (except the Electrocorrosive Whip and...who cares?). Though Also I'll note the Archite's Wych Weapons were different (and superior...and more affordable)

--------------------------------------

Just like there's no question which of them is more affordable, there is also no question which has better wargear options - from being able to take a bike, to a Shadowfield, to shooting tools, to even more h2h weapons than the Succubus, it is clear who is superior here.

Advantage? - Old!


Face to Face in Battle!

But all that aside, let's talk about them in the manner that matters - kicking in teeth and taking names! Obviously if we just allowed any point total than the Old Archite would mudstomp the Succubus and walk it dry. If you wanted a potent engine of Wych destruction on the table the answer is obviously that the old Wych Lords gave you a better creature to center your army around - anyone who argues different has been sniffing too much glue.

That said - we CAN have an honest discussion at which one of them provides the better cheap and affordable butt kicker.

Let's see;
New Succubus - Agoniser, HWGs - 90 points (and, incidentally, within 15-20 points of her maximum build)

Old Wych Lord Dracite - Agoniser, Combat Drug Dispenser, Wych Weapons - 91 points

As I said, there is no question that a kitted Archite will stomp a Succubus - indeed I think it would be easy to kit an Archite and *give* the Succubus the charge and still walk out as the winner on the 2nd round of combat. It's silly, the Old Archite wouldn't even need to swing the 1st round and would statistically still win. However, with these two builds we see a not uncommon build for either of them - both built to serve as minor assault threats, perhaps to go hunt a MC or IC off on its own, or small isolated squads.

Let's see how she flies (and as usual - ugh on figuring all the drug stuff, I'm so happy there are only a few drug battle left);

For the Succubus, the +1 WS, +1S, +1 Pain Token, and Assault boost drugs are all functionally equivalent and will not affect the fight.

Succubus charges Dracite

Succubus swings first;
5 attacks on charge (Wych weapons weaken her) - 2.5 hit (her WS is 4-5) (3 with bonus attack drug) - 1.25 wound (1.5 with re-roll wounds and bonus attack)
Dracite takes .6 - .75 wounds making him most likely half dead since he only has 2 wounds, though maybe he's fine.

Dracite swings back;
3 attacks - 1.5 hit - .75 wound.
Succubus takes .375 wounds - probably walks away fine.

2nd turn, Draacite gets drugs - takes swing first, +1 Attack, and re-roll misses)
Dracite goes at initiative 'first'
4 attacks - 3 hit with re-roll - 1.5 wounds, Succubus takes .75 wounds.

Succubus swings back.
4 attacks (5 with drug) - 2 hit (2.5) - 1 wound (1.25 or 1.5 depending on drug)
Drachite takes .5 wounds.

-----------------------------------

Okay, this one looks fairly clear, at this stage the Succubus has a slight leg up, and will continue to hold it. It's certainly possible for the Drachite to get the win even at this stage, but it will be a tight thing for him and he'll need the dice to fall favorably more so than the Succubus does.

Drachite charges the Succubus

Dracite gets drugs - takes swing first, +1 Attack, and re-roll misses)
Dracite goes at initiative 'first'
5 attacks - 3.75 hit with re-roll - 1.875 wounds, Succubus takes .937 wounds.

Succubus swings back.
4 attacks (5 with drug) - 2 hit (2.5) - 1 wound (1.25 or 1.5 depending on drug)
Drachite takes .5 wounds.

2nd turn.

Succubus swings first;
4 attacks (Wych weapons weaken her) - 2 hit (her WS is 4-5) (2.5 with bonus attack drug) - 1 wound (1.25 with re-roll wounds and bonus attack)
Dracite takes .5 - .6 wounds.

Dracite swings back;
3 attacks - 1.5 hit - .75 wound.
Succubus takes .375 wounds.

This one, despite his lower number of wounds, actually puts the Drachite into the driver's seat. He's able to clip off a wound initially from the Succubus and then is able to start trading wounds on a favorable basis where he risks .5 wounds a turn pretty much regardless and is making her risk between .3 and .75 wounds a turn. It's still a very close match, but he's decently likely to walk away from it.

Now, all that said, we were very much fighting the match on the Succubus' terms, and allowing it to be dictated as a minimum point consideration. What I think is important to recognize is that, at the minimum point consideration where the Succubus is Queen, the old Wych Lords are almost as good (while having one less Wound). At every consideration above that the Wych Lords reign supreme. Also, if we were to go lower points, the Dracite would start winning soundly, because he can build a much more deadly unit at, say, 60 points, than the Succubus can, because in reality he can be cheaper, he's almost like taking a Haem, but having it provide Wych combat potential.

Overall, since, playing to the Succubus' core purpose the old Wych Lords do it almost as well, and since they can do many other things beside that, I think it's clear who is the superior head to head fighter.

Advantage? - Old!

=================================
=================================

So that's my breakdown.

The Succubus has many strong points...well, actually, let's be clear, she really has one strong point: she is affordable as sin for what you get. She's a one trick pony, but she does the trick exceedingly well.

The Wych Lords are not one trick ponies, they are a cavalcade of options ranging from light and cheap skirmishers, all the way up to beatstick deathstar, and everything in-between. It's interesting to see something painted so clearly - we *are* seeing codex creep, insomuch as looking at the core statlines it's kind of silly to justify that there was any sense made when pricing at least one of these three things. Yet, at the same time, we're also seeing the weakness of GW's streamlining: the Succubus is good, but only if you play her exactly like GW wants - because she can't do anything else. Meanwhile the old Codex is a little more wild and wooly, and offered you a plethora of deadly choices to suit your army need.

Now, of course, I'll admit I vote with a possible nostalgic bent. But at the core of things I want an HQ that provides me options, and that's what the Old Wych Lords did - they let me build a Wych Leaader to ddo what my army needed it to do, and didn't trap me into what is, for all intents and purposes, an expensive Sarge upgrade in the New Succubus.

I'll take options all day, any day - and I also love me my combat potential that the Old Lords brought.

Winner in my mind - Old Wych Lords.

That's my call - what's yours?

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Tue Mar 13 2012, 19:47

I agree, the Succubus is just too much of a one trick pony tail (wych? ponytail?). That being said most of our HQ's are really just melee beatsticks, and for me the Succubus gets kinda lost in the mix. I vote Old!

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Tue Mar 13 2012, 20:32

the old HQs just have so many options it just wasnt even funny. And yes I ran a dracite once with no weapons just so see who could kill her first Razz Old one wins my vote

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Tue Mar 13 2012, 20:39

Succubus with Punisher, Shadowfield and JetBike? Yes please )
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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Tue Mar 13 2012, 21:54

I'm going to stick my neck out here, yes, I think options such as a jetbike would be great for the succubus, but I like the way the new HQ's have a clearly defined role. Granted, I never played DE under the old codex, but it sounds like the only differentiation previously was the statline? By limiting the options and wargear it's clear what does what in the HQ section now, which I must admit I like.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Tue Mar 13 2012, 22:29

mmm chocolate covered bacon... XD

I would like the option to toss my archon, or succubus, or... well... anything on a jetbike or skyboard if i wanted... archon jetbike WWP assault would be amazing!

Also, I think the archon would be a better match-up here, since he's more similar to what it seems the old wych lords were than the succubus is...


please dont double post. That is what the edit button is for Wink SR

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Tue Mar 13 2012, 22:58

I miss my Punisher/THelm combo.

Vote: OLD

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Wed Mar 14 2012, 00:57

The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Granted, I never played DE under the old codex, but it sounds like the only differentiation previously was the statline?
You mean between the Archons and Arcites?

The prime differences came with what they did to your army. Archites made Wyches Troops, Archons left Warriors as Troops. There was also a difference in their retinue units - Archites could only take Wych Retinues, whereas the Archon allowed for Incubi to be taken (he could also take Warriors, or even a mix n' match of the two).

It was exceedingly common to see either an Archite or Archon fielded along with a Dracon or Dracite - one to be a beat stick and set the theme of the army, and the other to be a secondary beatstick and perhaps allow alternate unit options (I personally liked Fielding Lelith along with a Dracon in order to get an Incubi retinue running around - and I took Dracites often to work as uber Wych squads or to field a 4th unit of Wyches in an otherwise Kabal army.

Also their statlines were different Wink

Ruke wrote:
Also, I think the archon would be a better match-up here, since he's more similar to what it seems the old wych lords were than the succubus is...
We already did Archon vs. Archon though - and the Old Wych Lords would spank the New Archon just as well.
I'll agree the role of what the Succubus is shifted dramatically (as did Scourges, Beastmasters, and Haemonculi just to name a few others). I'm not worried if they have a totally different role in the codex now, the discussion is just about which was better/more useful as far as a unit goes.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Wed Mar 14 2012, 10:31

I dunno, the succubus is about one of the very few place I would even consider a blast pistol , mainly because you pay the same as a squad leader does for it but get to shoot it with bs6, ofc I know she will be running often but at higher points games I have found that once you have filled up your vehicle and darklight spots as usual the pistols are worth throwing in to increase your close range volumes, sadly darkligt is all about volumes ......

The new succubus is fail T3 and a 4++ and no way to cause instant death means she is all but useless vs any character with an invuln , yup she can kill a couple of marines a turn ? barely a leg up on a hekatrix really.

power fist = delete (all the time man all.the.time. and dont get me started on Archon/Shadowfield)

She's frankly rubbish , yup shes cheap but in this case you get what you pay for .....

I voted old purely because the new one actually serves no real purpose in the new book, you are better off with another 5-6 wyches with an agoniser hek and haywires for around the same points ...


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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Thu Mar 15 2012, 22:20

Sorrowshard wrote:
I voted old purely because the new one actually serves no real purpose in the new book, you are better off with another 5-6 wyches with an agoniser hek and haywires for around the same points ...
Though the Succubus can be packed into a Transport that you already bought as opposed to footslogging.

But, yeah, the Succubus serves a very narrow field of need - it's her biggest drawback, because you need a specific situation to really benefit from her being on the table (basically - wanting a super affordable assault HQ)

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Fri Mar 16 2012, 13:27

While I love the old one, I will admit Im getting fond of the new Archite just as much (she will never be a succubus to me). There was no reason to take her before other than being fluffy and unlocking wyches as troops. Nowadays she has a defined role, abeit a really tiny one. If only she had something still super special awesome, like the option for a bike or skyboard. Now that would be something I would use alot more. Funny thing is there is a comment kelly through the Dias in because every existing DE player already had the model, well what about our converted Reaver Archon's huh??? This would of been the perfect place to give us that option!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Fri Mar 16 2012, 14:38

Thor665 wrote:
Sorrowshard wrote:
I voted old purely because the new one actually serves no real purpose in the new book, you are better off with another 5-6 wyches with an agoniser hek and haywires for around the same points ...
Though the Succubus can be packed into a Transport that you already bought as opposed to footslogging.

But, yeah, the Succubus serves a very narrow field of need - it's her biggest drawback, because you need a specific situation to really benefit from her being on the table (basically - wanting a super affordable assault HQ)

But she's not a very good assault HQ ? "ooh take two wounds you nughty man" *save* "ok one wound" ... is that a ? you wouldn't Shocked *splamf* powerfist upside the head . The.End

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Fri Mar 16 2012, 14:56

Kills for point, the succubus has a great value against most MEQ.

6 attacks, 4 hits, 2 wounds with an agoniser. Pending the drug that would be 3 kills...

Compare that to vect who manages 4 kills but is 3 times the price...

With a unit of wyches or blood brides she should take minimum attacks back and as for the power fist scenario (which i see so often used but almost never see on the table occouring thanks to tactics ensuring she is not threatened by it) - most WS4 models with 2 attacks (Sarge with fist) have approx 40% chance to kill her. Yep thats high but between her 2-3 kills, the succubus 1, the 8 wyches 1-2 and careful placement you should never be threatened by a fist.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Fri Mar 16 2012, 15:08

Fist just has to be not directly engaged and within 2 inches of someone she is engaged with, opponent can play careful positioning too.

2 meq kills per turn and having to hide from other cc characters does nothing to light me on fire sry.


Also vect has a couple of other things going for him as well as double kills.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Fri Mar 16 2012, 15:37

I agree she is subpar for sure - its just for her 85 points (double the cost of a succubus equiped the same) you get twice the kills.... in that light she is ok

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Fri Mar 16 2012, 16:29

Im sorry sorrowshard but IDK what you are looking for out of 85 points, but she is a steal for what she is. Compare to a SM captain w/ Relic Blade. He is 125 (40 points more) and for what? T6 and T4? Well against basis rank and file marines he charges with 4 attacks, and does 2.219 wounds (4*.666*.833=2.219) pretty much the same output as the succubus (6*.666*.5=1.998 wounds without drug modification) for a third of the price.

Oh, and for some comparison. She is worth what... 9 wyches? well lets see how well 9 wyches do against marines. That comes out to 1.497 wounds (27*.5*.333*.333=1.497) again under her damage output. So that arguement about her being worth 9 more wyches is a falacy (unless you consider they score). For completionist sake lets compare her to 6 wyches w/ hekatrix w/ Agoniser (also worth 90 points) That outputs 1.998 wounds (18*.5*.333*.333=.998 wounds, while the hekatrix does 4*.5*.5=1) so that evens out nicely. But you have to remember she actually gets alot form the WS combat drug (makes marines hits on 5s) so that is huge.

So basically she has the damage output of 5 regular wyches and an agoniser hekatrix... for 5 points cheaper... That sounds like an amazing deal to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Fri Mar 16 2012, 16:42

She dies so much easier than those wyches, I'd take the squad every time.

Relic blade at str 6 can deal with arm our properly and wound most things on 2's not to mention instakilling said succubus who will fail to kill him, and t4 and at least a 3 plus is significant.

Face it man shes not very good

conversationally how much is a chaplain and what do you get ?

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Fri Mar 16 2012, 17:19

a chappie you say??? well lets see.

a chappie is 4 attacks on the charge (no one takes away that pistol unless he is in termie armor) so that is 1.776 wounds on the charge against rank and file marines (4*.666+(1.336*.666)*.5=1.776) again just under our succubus. Also you get re-rolls for his squad. A decent ability, and well worth the 15 or so points difference when adding in the difference in WS, I, T, A, and his 3+.

Also you have to remember the chappie strikes at the same time as regular marines, so he can just as easily be ganked by smaller units, unlike the succubus who has the potential to kill off a 5 man squad before they even hit.

There is no comparison, for per points worth she is amazing. Im sorry our army isnt T4... but your arguement about being instant killed by power fists is null in void. T4 is also ID by powerfists. Both the captain and chappie have the same chances of being instant killed by a power fist sarge as the succubus. Atleast our succubus gets a chance of actually having that chance lowered by getting the WS drug (hence that sargie needs a 5 to hit) and does it again... cheaper than both of those choices.

Each of the HQs said above have their places, but point per point she is the best out of those 3, and I dare you to find an HQ that can out point her for her kill ratio
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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Fri Mar 16 2012, 17:38

A Chaplain/Succubus comparison might be interesting.

I'm certainly not in awe of the Succubus, but she isn't bad in h2h combat compared to other h2h HQs of similar cost. They usually have similar advantages and weaknesses. The Powerfist isn't a unique problem - if you wanted to focus on unique Succubi problems you'd probably want to discuss Str 6 causing insta-death - that's a unique foible that is pretty much just the Succubi's.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Fri Mar 16 2012, 17:47

I'm with Shard here, though I used to be a fan. Yes she is great value for points. Just not capable of doing anything impressive enough to include her - if I want killing power I'll take a killy unit over her (Wyches, Incubi).


Shadow wrote:
I dare you to find an HQ that can out point her for her kill ratio

Most HQs are taken because they are force multipliers (Chappy), not death machines, so you'd be hard pressed finding a fair comparison that's actually fielded competitively. Maybe an Ork Warboss will take this challenge on, but I can't think of anything else off the top.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Fri Mar 16 2012, 17:59

The New is a kill-bot. I think people are underestimating how easy it is to kill her with a Powerfist Sarge (she's an IC, have to be in B2B, so careful placement can save her easily, which isn't too hard since its not like you want to shoot with her)....but, she's still just a kill-bot. A Cheap kill-bit...

The Archite on the other hand, was both a good kill-bot (Old Wych weapons were nice), and a force multiplier (Wyches are Troop). Yes, she cost more...but versatility....
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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Sat Mar 17 2012, 01:33

As I stated before, they do not need to be in b2b just unengaged and within 2" of a model fighting them.

it can be set up so the fist does not end up in cc fairly reliably.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Thu Mar 29 2012, 23:42

Sorry for the lack of an official call here - I'm a little V/LA at the moment. That said, it is pretty clear that the Wych Lords of old, much like their Archon Brethren, still reign supreme. The Succubus mayhaps will find consolation in all the voters wanting to witness the spankings.

Keep an eye out for the Beastmasters/Warp Beasts battle later on tonight.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Wed Apr 18 2012, 21:35

Thor665 wrote:

Want to build Peacey McHuggle-poo, the Archite who brings no weapons to battle and just dances around showering love and affection on all? You can do that too.

That just won me over in favour for the old Wych Lord. The versatility was outstanding.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus   Tue Apr 24 2012, 20:22

While the old wych lords could technically be better due to the armoury, it really wasn't very fluffy to have a wych with a tormentor helm, punisher and shadowfield, so I much prefer the new one just because it's fluffy but still works excellently. The Archon performs that role, there's no need for the Succubus to do it too.

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