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Sorrowshard
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PostSubject: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Thu Mar 01 2012, 16:42

This may come as a surprise to some people so I'm just going to come out and say it. The DE book sucks ass in 5th....

just roll that around in your head for a moment, do you agree ? If not why not ?

on the tail end of of GK and Necrons I feel I am comfortable stating this: The DE book has all the hallmarks of a 4th edition codex, it would have been great in 4th. I am almost certain that the book was meant for that edition. If it was not then GW deliberately made the rules subtly weak, it was good enough to confuse people long enough to sell models but in the grand scheme of things DE are fatally flawed.

Yes they should be squishy, thats not the problem and I actually like having a fragile army, but at the same time I have a fragile army that cannot damage its opposition even half as well as its opposition can damage it.

Lets look at two broadly comparable units in comparison just to highlight the point

6 Henchmen (GK) 3 x meltas in a psybolt razor - 116

5 warriors Blaster in venom with FF's = 125

not having the GK book handy I dont know the exact points difference , but both are used for the same thing and you will often see multiple units of each.

now if we break it down, the DE get less special weapons (a codex wide problem rly) they pay more for that special weapon and it is significantly worse at its job ?

the acolytes cost less than half per man, ok the DE get extra ws and bs and the possibility of FNP, but as a scoring mini unit with AT capability the henchies win by a country mile, they have greater access to much better gear and support buffs too.

Now, I think the raider is a good transport, I do however think it is overcosted (possibly because the base price on darklight is completely out of whack with this edition)

open topped is as much a blessing as it is a curse so its not really a cost factor, raider is lower armoured however the FF does help to compensate (against single hits) but that brings its price to 70 points , now a psybolt TL heavy bolter and a dark lance are different things however assuming both out armies will come up against each other and just for the sake of arguement assume we have six of these in each troops slot , we have a (likely) situation where these units come into direct conflict.

raiders shoot razors = not alot happens (six shots hitting on threes pene on rolling on table on 3+) , even if you get the drop its likely they have 4+ or even 3+ cover (conversly to get our version of smoke we have to move and doing so means anything that gets through is even MORE likely to blow us up ....great) however rszors shooting raiders is significantly dangerous, 18 twin linked shots fours to do something with +1 on the table, as we know forcing multiple saves on our nitro planes is the way to do it . whats worse is that they can switch over and kill infantry plenty good too (denying our fnp)

This sad story plays itself out through much of our codex.

I'm going to use GK as a benchmark here as it is considered to be a top tier 5th army.

Archon or Grandmaster ? (conversationally the GK characters for the most part piss all over DE ones)

Librarian or haemo ancient (he should more or less fill that role)

Inquisitor or standard hemo

Brotherhood champion or succubus ?

Dark lance - psycannon (not just the base stats but cost and availability also think about the platform these are available on)

trueborn/scourges - purgation squads (also compares with quad psycannon purifiers)

Incubi/ Harlies - purifiers

Ravager - psyflemen

storm Raven - void raven

psychic powers or arcane wargear (Roflol it hurts it hurts )

thats not everything but you get the idea.

Demonstrably (and this applies to other common troop choices in the game) our stuff is less effective, more fragile and costs more than the nearest equivalents, I'm all for fragility and elite pricing, but to balance it out we need to hit proportionately harder.

there is alot of gimpy wank all through the DE book and plenty of 'dead' units and useless wargear. we dont even get proper melta. It is not a proper 5th edition codex.

I'm going to start working through our book and bringing into line with GK and Crons IG, spacewolves.

I'm sick of GW not bothering or deliberately nerfing Xenos books I just want to play on an even footing and I dont want to have to go and buy the latest book /an army I'm not really into to compete.

Anyway I'm going to do a unit by unit breakdown analysis comparisonand rebuild of each unit , Ill post the final rules fot your critique and comment, anyone who would care to go out and test it I would greatly appreciate the feedback.

I will make this into a full offcial fandex with all the bells and whistles + fan art, once it is done. It will see use in a big narrative campaign me and a friend are planning on (fully bat-repped and written up) he's going to start work on a similar project for the nilla marine dex.

I'm not on about making this broken, just to identify the problems and fix them and maybe add where things are glaringly missing in terms of flavor.

Thanks and Ill be back with the first in the series soon.

PS. I wont be running this on the blog , This is a separate project I wanted to do and its something I wanted to share with all the die hard DE players on the Dark City., better to do it on the down low, needless to say the finished product will go up on the blog.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Thu Mar 01 2012, 16:52

I disagree with a number of your points but the main one that sticks out is the comparision.

Firstly, the henchmen are not troops without wasting 100 points on a subpar HQ thus lessening the options and effects possible.

Second, the henchmen are slower. Much slower.

Lastly, cross codex comparisons are always flawed due to the way they are written and different writers involved.

I think the dex is very definatley less than perfect for 5th but i think 6th will see it right. I also believe that internally, the balance of the dex is excelent with few poor (mandrakes) choices.

I will be keen to see what you do with the ideas you have and how its presented as i think the DE book is perfectly servicable now against most forces... ironically i think its at it strongest against grey knights in most cases!

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Thu Mar 01 2012, 17:35

actually I think the comparison is completely valid.

and they are not that much slower, they can move twelve and get out to shoot exactly the same, the speed is pointless when your opponent outranges or has equal range to you with guns that kill you more efficiently than you can even suppress things back.

I don't see how 6th will help at all, at best we see some flyer rules and a fix for dark lances, In some ways I could live with that, flyrs seem likely but I wont hold my breath on the lances.

well wracks are actually a poor choice , and blood brides are totally pointless, incubi were ok but not worth taking in the current environment, only character that really sees use is the baron and no one uses Hellions competitively. harlequins fail utterly without psychic support, drazhar and decapitator are bloody awful characters, homo ancient is a totally dead/fail entry , Beastmasters are actually ok but GW priced them out of playability in financial terms even my local GW manager wit his half price discount says he will never buy any for his DE . talos and cronos are rubbish , the razorwing will be spot on with flyer rules but the void raven gives me nerdrage fits.

Scourges are utter total rubbish , a complete fail, easily on par with mandrakes especially so as it's a crime those models wont see the table as much as they should.

Like all xeno books it has one or two 'serviceable' builds, and honestly in the current environment I think Venomspam is dead.

Conversationally , 40 player local tourney had ONE DE player even the eldar had three players ?

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Thu Mar 01 2012, 18:14

In all honesty i'm happy with the DE dex. 40k in general isnt a balanced game and is designed just to sell pretty models, of which the DE are the prettiest. Saying that i've won just as many games with my DE as my wolves, against the same players in my group. While GKs are unbalanced I think 6th edition could iron out some of the kinks. If we want a truly balanced game then 40k isn't the answer, and comparisons can be really wonky as a result.

But i'm watching with thread with interest.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Thu Mar 01 2012, 20:14

Only things I think would be nice to be fixed(not needed codex is good enough for me to have winning average)
1) mandrakes and decapitator
2) dais with FF, NS, aerial assault
3)cc options for trueborn, like venom blade instead of blaster and pw instead of splinter cannon, option to take ghost plate unit wide would be nice too.
4)venom for harlequins(including cwe), it was there transport 1rst after all
5)incubi with a tormentor that does something(even if its just says that is were the 2a come from, like the mandiblaster in eldar codex), option on klaivex for phantasm grenades would be nice too.
6) drazar with a dodge( they could give all the phoenix lords a 5++ while there at it for that matter, they did it in 3rd, wd article said all terminators in every codex now have 5++, terminators were rarely seen before that) and give him his disembowelers back(demi-klavies that cause 2 wounds would be nice)
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Fri Mar 02 2012, 01:24

@Sorrowshard wrote:
actually I think the comparison is completely valid.

Fair enough - we can each have our own opinion. What i will say from her on is that i like lively discussions so my comments are not meant to be an attack but as a set of my opinions to set some debates moving - no offence is intended

@Sorrowshard wrote:
and they are not that much slower, they can move twelve and get out to shoot exactly the same, the speed is pointless when your opponent outranges or has equal range to you with guns that kill you more efficiently than you can even suppress things back.

But your looking at it in a vacumn. You need the HQ choice to make the comparison valid and your not taking into consideration the rest of the forces involved, table lay out mission etc... math hammer has its place but 'The White Room' effect is a dangerous place to compare units.

@Sorrowshard wrote:
I don't see how 6th will help at all, at best we see some flyer rules and a fix for dark lances, In some ways I could live with that, flyrs seem likely but I wont hold my breath on the lances.

I expect the help to come from the changes to the damage chart and vehicle rules in general where multiple hits mean something. The biggest issue i find is not the hit or damage but stacking lots of light damage with little effect. The rumoured changes in the PDF make lots of hits more worthwhile - something the DE very well. I don't expect lances to change at all and the flyers should be very good going by the rumoured PDF.

@Sorrowshard wrote:
well wracks are actually a poor choice , and blood brides are totally pointless, incubi were ok but not worth taking in the current environment, only character that really sees use is the baron and no one uses Hellions competitively. harlequins fail utterly without psychic support, drazhar and decapitator are bloody awful characters, homo ancient is a totally dead/fail entry , Beastmasters are actually ok but GW priced them out of playability in financial terms even my local GW manager wit his half price discount says he will never buy any for his DE . talos and cronos are rubbish , the razorwing will be spot on with flyer rules but the void raven gives me nerdrage fits.

Ok, now i am going to disagree more. Wracks are very good for torrent of attacks with poison weapons and combined with liquifiers can deal with just about any non vehicle unit. The big weakeness is vehicles and thats it. They don't tarpit as well as wyches but they are durable thanks to starting FNP, very cheap and can be made troops if you want. I agree on the bloodbrides - its not that they are bad as such, just that the normal wyches do it almost as well and are scoring to boot.

I field incubi regularly and find them very effective - once the enemy is out of a vehicle i get a tonne of milage. On the Characters, i have used the baron, will be using the duke (who is point for point perhaps the best character in the book) and Vect later in the year. I have seen hellions used in a competative play both online and in person - i intend to do so myself at some stage!

Not sure why you think harlies are fail - you don't need doom & fortune with them. They are mobile, durable and dangerous. They can engange anything you put infront of them and fill gaps in the dark eldar list quite well. I will argue strongly that Drazhar is awful. Darting strike is insanely good and keeps him alive much longer than you think it will. I used him at a tourney less than 2 months ago with great success. I will conceed Decapitator is on par with the mandrakes Rolling Eyes . The acient Haemy is also a wasted opportunity - i would have liked to see LD 10 on him as well as shield options. The beasts are only too expensive if you buy genuine models - i see plenty of converted ones. That said - i have a 4 master pack with genunine models which i bought over time or got as gifts - and think about this - i live in australia where we pay MUCH more than the rest of the world.

The talos is GOLD with haywire blaster - i would happily use 3 even without a WWP. The chronos not so much but its still cheap, durable and a force multiplier. The razorwing is INSANE as it is - giving it flyer rules will make it much worse for the opponent. The void raven is also acceptable and is only overshadowed by how cheap the ravager is.

@Sorrowshard wrote:
Scourges are utter total rubbish , a complete fail, easily on par with mandrakes especially so as it's a crime those models wont see the table as much as they should.

How so? Good range of weapons, mobile and cheap enough to use them...

@Sorrowshard wrote:
Like all xeno books it has one or two 'serviceable' builds, and honestly in the current environment I think Venomspam is dead.

I disagree - the DE book has many viable builds both for fun and competative play.

@Sorrowshard wrote:
Conversationally , 40 player local tourney had ONE DE player even the eldar had three players ?

The last event i went to was 56 player and i counted at least 6 dark eldar not including me.

I have more to say but am at work so i will post more later!

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Fri Mar 02 2012, 02:21

@Levitas wrote:
In all honesty i'm happy with the DE dex. 40k in general isnt a balanced game and is designed just to sell pretty models, of which the DE are the prettiest. Saying that i've won just as many games with my DE as my wolves, against the same players in my group. While GKs are unbalanced I think 6th edition could iron out some of the kinks. If we want a truly balanced game then 40k isn't the answer, and comparisons can be really wonky as a result.

But i'm watching with thread with interest.
I'm with Levitas on this one. Are there problems with the codex? Yes, but not in ways that makes bringing the army to tournaments an auto fail. Are GK's broken? Of course, but I don't think that this invalidates the fair;y balanced list that we have.

That being said, I'm also watching this thread with interest.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Fri Mar 02 2012, 10:16

Fair enough - we can each have our own opinion. What i will say from her on is that i like lively discussions so my comments are not meant to be an attack but as a set of my opinions to set some debates moving - no offence is intended

No worries, I was not taking it as such, I expected some of this when I posted, I accept some of you will be in denial and that it may take some work to remove those rose tinted glasses. For the record there more than a few people who consider DE to be sub par (and falling) go see Staleks updated Army rankings for a start , I rerely entirely agree with him entirely and have clashed in the past but his opinions match my own on this subject, you will also see some other peoples veiws on the subject by floating around, it was seeing so many other people disgruntled and a little sad that gave me the urge to kick this off.

But your looking at it in a vacumn. You need the HQ choice to make the comparison valid and your not taking into consideration the rest of the forces involved, table lay out mission etc... math hammer has its place but 'The White Room' effect is a dangerous place to compare units.

No I'm not looking at it in a vacumm, both armies are subject to the same core rulebook, both are going to play on the same tables and against the same opponents , both will have to operate at the same points levels and using the same army chart, the only way to truly start getting any idea of how an army stacks up is to compare it with other armies and also of course play with it vs all those other armies, we are over a year down the line now thats alot of playing against other armies, and I honestly sense more than a little dissatisfaction with elements of the book.


I expect the help to come from the changes to the damage chart and vehicle rules in general where multiple hits mean something. The biggest issue i find is not the hit or damage but stacking lots of light damage with little effect. The rumoured changes in the PDF make lots of hits more worthwhile - something the DE very well. I don't expect lances to change at all and the flyers should be very good going by the rumoured PDF.

So really we will still have to pump ridiculous amounts of overpriced darklight into targets to kill them ? great, currently a blaster is 50% more expensive than a melta gun, less available and generally on a more fragile platform ? there is no explicable reason for this, I'm not sure what they could do with 6th that would make Raiders worth 60 points ?

going to disagree more. Wracks are very good for torrent of attacks with poison weapons and combined with liquifiers can deal with just about any non vehicle unit. The big weakeness is vehicles and thats it. They don't tarpit as well as wyches but they are durable thanks to starting FNP, very cheap and can be made troops if you want. I agree on the bloodbrides - its not that they are bad as such, just that the normal wyches do it almost as well and are scoring to boot.

Heh, we are going to keep disagreeing on this , wracks are bad really they are , and they are not really that cheap really are they ? the best use for Wracks is that @ 30 points they are the cheapest access to either a venom/raider or pain point.

I field incubi regularly and find them very effective - once the enemy is out of a vehicle i get a tonne of milage. On the Characters, i have used the baron, will be using the duke (who is point for point perhaps the best character in the book) and Vect later in the year. I have seen hellions used in a competative play both online and in person - i intend to do so myself at some stage!

this is the problem though you see and your statement admits it "once out of a vehicle" really says it all, De genuinely struggle to open mech Lances are very hit and miss in terms of actual real lasting damage and the yare pretty much all we get and they are expensive and restricted, yup, I have had incubi be really quite effective, they do however bounce fairly often too, when you consider the lack of grenades when other armies get the kitchen sink they start to be frustrating, certain GK builds force your incubi to esssentially spend the game hiding as I6 str 5 power weapons lol all over them , to be fair even a semi reasonable invuln causes incubi problems.

I ran Duke for ages, his bonuses are really just a bit gimmicky , admittedly he's not 'bad' but nothing to get all happy about. no DE player worth his salt relies on a favourable drugs roll anyway (and it's still random) the poison is nice, its actually quite hard to really get the most out of his various stuff. Vect is just very expensive, and really his rules do him little justice ( I dont mean his combat ability either) helilions can be quite good , I think they are a little expensive personally coupled with their fragility and limited ability to threaten Mech they are workable but not top shelf material. a reasonable baron squad is 300 ish points on (15) t3 models ?


Not sure why you think harlies are fail - you don't need doom & fortune with them. They are mobile, durable and dangerous. They can engange anything you put infront of them and fill gaps in the dark eldar list quite well. I will argue strongly that Drazhar is awful. Darting strike is insanely good and keeps him alive much longer than you think it will. I used him at a tourney less than 2 months ago with great success. I will conceed Decapitator is on par with the mandrakes Rolling Eyes . The acient Haemy is also a wasted opportunity - i would have liked to see LD 10 on him as well as shield options. The beasts are only too expensive if you buy genuine models - i see plenty of converted ones. That said - i have a 4 master pack with genunine models which i bought over time or got as gifts - and think about this - i live in australia where we pay MUCH more than the rest of the world.

Drazhar is a terrible character, he has no invuln, NO invuln, darting strike is semi useful but any half decent character with an invuln will laugh him off with a couple of saves then kill him so all he's really only any good for is blowing up meq troops, you would be better off simply spending 200 more points on Incubi, he's really bad , really really.bad. take him to any semi competitive event and you must expect to get punished... this is really not an attack on you but I really must question the quality of your opponents?

You entirely need fortune and doom on them, they are night and day with and without , durable ? oh lol, they are t3 with a 5+ save and cost a lot of points, and if you dont roll a few sixes they are screwed , just recently I had a full unit of harlies dragged down with 4 bases of scarabs .....after charging , no rends (happens often) followed by a few lucky saves and I was having to take those lovely 5+ saves. I WANT them to be good but they are not, they are only even a vaguely solid entry in the Eldar book with heavy psychic support.


The talos is GOLD with haywire blaster - i would happily use 3 even without a WWP. The chronos not so much but its still cheap, durable and a force multiplier. The razorwing is INSANE as it is - giving it flyer rules will make it much worse for the opponent. The void raven is also acceptable and is only overshadowed by how cheap the ravager is.

I would rather pay for the ravager , it can actually do something at range , mostrous creatures fail in 5th (see many successsful Nid armies about ? and their Mc's are better ;o) also GK and Crons have pretty much made haywires a dead choice. I

How so? Good range of weapons, mobile and cheap enough to use them...

Sorry buddy, this makes me think you are on a different planet, that much points for a t3 model ? you mad brah ? reavers cost the exact same and are overall just much better (another reason you wont see scourges) unless you kit them for anti infantry (which you can cover more efficeiently with the rest of the book, half the models will be twiddling their thumbs whenever the unit shoots , damn thats some expensive fragile ablavative wounds to get enough special weapons to really guarantee good results you are spending over 200 points , on 10 t3 models ?

I disagree - the DE book has many viable builds both for fun and competative play.

Agree on fun and theme , completely.Your thoughts on competitive simply does not follow through in the tourney results and is only getting worse. at best De are struggling to hold position around the middle of the field on average

The last event i went to was 56 player and i counted at least 6 dark eldar not including me.

Not exactly stellar is it when you consider the book is still relitively new and has a fabulous model range ?

I think there were 16 DE players at throne when I went (I think it was 250 players) only two of us made it to the top 10 tables and only I made it to the top 5 (took best DE general) the rest of them were way down the bottom apart from one guy in the middle tables.


I have more to say but am at work so i will post more later![/quote]

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Fri Mar 02 2012, 11:11

I'm sorry, but i also disagree with most of the things you've said, except about Mandrakes, and certain Special Chars.

I've been playing DE since they came out, had several run-ins with Necrons and a game or two against GK (the ones you seem to complain the most about), and i've actually only had problems with Mech IG.
It seems to me, from your complaints, that it's a matter of learning to use your units correctly, and how to counter those armies specifically

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Fri Mar 02 2012, 11:15

Posting excessive points cost is prohibited - either post all points added together next time or not at all. Certain posts has been edited. /mod

That aside, I think that it is quite harsh to compare the DE codex to Grey Knights, which as it seems is pretty much the 40k equivalent of WHFB Daemons of Chaos. Compared to armies like Orks, usual Marines, Eldar or Tyranids, I think DE are a very good codex, and that as mentioned before, only a few of the units are bad. But as many others before me, I am also quite curious about what exactly you want to change.


One thing I could point out, is that harlequins have this gimmick that they have the shadowseer instead of a ttransport, just so you know (was mentioned in WD when the new Eldar codex was released).

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Fri Mar 02 2012, 11:37

lol, I have been playing DE since before the official release date and I have many many games under my belt.

I rarely loose (not bragging simple fact) I rarely loose with Eldar either (and you cant deny thats not a bad dex for 5th) I'm pretty damn good at 40k, does not mean I do not feel at a distinct disadvantage with my DE in many cases if I just wanted to win I would have switched armies ages ago.

alot of GK builds are managable, thats true (especially paladinstars and termy spam), but at least two of the competitive builds you will have to be able to beat and will prob face in a current tourney delete DE.

I'm surprised you have only one or two games with GK they are unavoidable over here with at least 25% representation of the entire feild at my local tourneys being GK ?

Generally I have coped well with IG, because you can outmaneuver them and use supression on them De can cope if you know what you are doing, remember crons and GK essentially ignore or shrug off alot of surpression and that hurts when they are jamming multiple str 6-8 hits in your face.

Err clearly you did not read my last post properly, I came 3rd out of a major 250 player uk tourney , being the highest pointed De player there, the only reason I am not attending the UK GT is that RL stuff took over and I had to relinquish my ticket. Ithink I might know my way around the army/ units and their uses/abilities by now. in fact it's entirely because of that I feel qualified to even suggest this project.

@ Saintspirit

De completely annhillate nids atm and yeah we can do ok against the bad/middlle of the road books, EDIT: but if we are doing ok how are we going to be doing after an edition change and they ge an update ? history dictates that we will not see another DE book for years. .

Er the shadowseer is exactly as you say a gimmick, the protection is random at best and is useless agains the stuff thet will just erase tham anyway you put it in because you have to not because its worth 30 points, they should just have come with it , I am very familiar with harlequins I ran a footdar harlequin army for quite a while because I liked the idea of it, as stated before , Harlequins are indeed very good , with psychic support.


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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Fri Mar 02 2012, 12:26

Biggest problems I feel are the fact that almost 50% or more of the armies you face are T4 with a 3+ save. Their guns wound us on 3's and ignore our armour. We on the other hand wound on 4's (even if it is against anything) but they always get that save against it.

We are therefore far more vulnerable to the weapons that are seen the most. Also Lances aren't really all that great. Sure everything is armour 12 but you still only have a 1/3 chance of getting a pen and then 1/3 of actually wrecking what you shot at. I had a game last weekend where I had 3 Raiders, 2 Ravagers and 2 four man Blasterborn squads. I shot every weapon I had at a Land Raider (I know, not the best of targets) and at the end of the game all I had done was immobilise if and knock off one gun....... And that's from our "anti-tank" gun.
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Fri Mar 02 2012, 12:36

Why do you keep mentioning their toughness? Ok, so they're weaker and more fragile than MEQs, and their leadership isn't as good, but the rest of their statline is comparable or better. We're often hitting them on the same in shooting and combat, and we get to go first or simultaneously most of the time. Yes, mandrakes are largely pointless, and bloodbrides don't bring much, but I think most of the other stuff in the codex has a place in a DE army. Don't understand your hatred of Drazhar - whilst a dodge save would make sense, he's still an eternal warrior who will probably strike first, with either a high number of power weapon attacks or high strength power weapon attacks. Plus he makes Incubi fearless, which is great with their less than stellar leadership. He's pricey, but not a lot more than a fully kitted out Archon, and he's more survivable.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Fri Mar 02 2012, 12:48

@Sorrowshard wrote:
No worries, I was not taking it as such, I expected some of this when I posted, I accept some of you will be in denial and that it may take some work to remove those rose tinted glasses. For the record there more than a few people who consider DE to be sub par (and falling) go see Staleks updated Army rankings for a start , I rerely entirely agree with him entirely and have clashed in the past but his opinions match my own on this subject, you will also see some other peoples veiws on the subject by floating around, it was seeing so many other people disgruntled and a little sad that gave me the urge to kick this off.

I was hoping this discussion would stay polite but your comment comes off as arogant and condescending. I was genuinely interested to see what you had to say but quote internet communities about thing being sub par means nothing more then your or my opinion, and i have little to no time for YTTH...

@Sorrowshard wrote:
No I'm not looking at it in a vacumm, both armies are subject to the same core rulebook, both are going to play on the same tables and against the same opponents , both will have to operate at the same points levels and using the same army chart, the only way to truly start getting any idea of how an army stacks up is to compare it with other armies and also of course play with it vs all those other armies, we are over a year down the line now thats alot of playing against other armies, and I honestly sense more than a little dissatisfaction with elements of the book.

Comparing the points value of 2 units with no outside influences is almost the definition of a vacumn.

@Sorrowshard wrote:
So really we will still have to pump ridiculous amounts of overpriced darklight into targets to kill them ? great, currently a blaster is 50% more expensive than a melta gun, less available and generally on a more fragile platform ? there is no explicable reason for this, I'm not sure what they could do with 6th that would make Raiders worth 60 points ?

The blaster comes practically everywhere! I agree the price is a little too high but thats more about the meta then the system as we pay for the punch vs Av13+. What i mean was that each hit will have cumulative effects, not just shake and repeat with no bonus after the first

@Sorrowshard wrote:
Heh, we are going to keep disagreeing on this , wracks are bad really they are , and they are not really that cheap really are they ? the best use for Wracks is that @ 30 points they are the cheapest access to either a venom/raider or pain point.

I only field a little unit for variety but can see that they are better than you make out. 130pts gets 10 with 2 liquifiers and an acothyst - all T4, FNP, 2 poison 4+ CCW each - thats cheap for what it is

@Sorrowshard wrote:
this is the problem though you see and your statement admits it "once out of a vehicle" really says it all, De genuinely struggle to open mech Lances are very hit and miss in terms of actual real lasting damage and the yare pretty much all we get and they are expensive and restricted, yup, I have had incubi be really quite effective, they do however bounce fairly often too, when you consider the lack of grenades when other armies get the kitchen sink they start to be frustrating, certain GK builds force your incubi to esssentially spend the game hiding as I6 str 5 power weapons lol all over them , to be fair even a semi reasonable invuln causes incubi problems.

Incubi are not for hitting vehicles - i never said they were. Once you are out a vehicle, most units just desolve from an incubi charge. As for bouncing fairly often? really? what are you charging with them? Yeah - lack of grenades sucks but try more then the 4-5 the internet tells you to use - then laugh as you loose 1-2 and wipe the enemy. I agree that halberd purifiers suck but apart from that - point for point - incubi win almost every other combat vs the GK dex.

@Sorrowshard wrote:
I ran Duke for ages, his bonuses are really just a bit gimmicky , admittedly he's not 'bad' but nothing to get all happy about. no DE player worth his salt relies on a favourable drugs roll anyway (and it's still random) the poison is nice, its actually quite hard to really get the most out of his various stuff. Vect is just very expensive, and really his rules do him little justice ( I dont mean his combat ability either) helilions can be quite good , I think they are a little expensive personally coupled with their fragility and limited ability to threaten Mech they are workable but not top shelf material. a reasonable baron squad is 300 ish points on (15) t3 models ?

I am at a tourney tomorrow with the duke so will have more feedback later but in the tests... he is way underpriced for just his combat stats... the free DS, 3+ poison and dual drugs is just gravy. I agree vect is over priced and should have eternal as after the seize he does nothing. Its not hard to get S5 hellions which with 15 of them will mess up parking lots very well. I agree they are a little over priced but still - of all the choices in the dex, our FA are the ones left wanting the most. That said, none are an outright bad choice.

@Sorrowshard wrote:
Drazhar is a terrible character, he has no invuln, NO invuln, darting strike is semi useful but any half decent character with an invuln will laugh him off with a couple of saves then kill him so all he's really only any good for is blowing up meq troops, you would be better off simply spending 200 more points on Incubi, he's really bad , really really.bad. take him to any semi competitive event and you must expect to get punished... this is really not an attack on you but I really must question the quality of your opponents?

Now i am going to get grumpy. Because you are attacking me - regardless of your denial of it. Questioning my quality of opponent because i made a 'subpar' character work? Really?? I can play the 'how awesome am i' game as well - I have multiple event wins under my belt including the 2004 GT with 3rd ed daemon hunters. I can actually play the game and will place well in 99% of events i go too. Draz does not need a ++ save - running him solo lets you control the combat so effectivley he never takes any serious heat from enemies. When he died while i used him - it was being exposed to multiple (10) Ig melta guns after smashing a 30 man blob squad. Other than that i had him take out crowe, a GKGM and numerous other enemies without trying. is he over priced- yep - a good 50 points or so i reckon - is he terrible - no.

@Sorrowshard wrote:
You entirely need fortune and doom on them, they are night and day with and without , durable ? oh lol, they are t3 with a 5+ save and cost a lot of points, and if you dont roll a few sixes they are screwed , just recently I had a full unit of harlies dragged down with 4 bases of scarabs .....after charging , no rends (happens often) followed by a few lucky saves and I was having to take those lovely 5+ saves. I WANT them to be good but they are not, they are only even a vaguely solid entry in the Eldar book with heavy psychic support.

I use them very successfully in my eldar lists with no psychic support. They are durable as heck thanks to veil of tears - by the time the enemy see's them your charging. Its a rare thing to harlies to fail if you have lined them up right. Why on earth would you chargee scarabs with harlies - you were never going to win that. Thats a tactical error more then a unit fail.

@Sorrowshard wrote:
I would rather pay for the ravager , it can actually do something at range , mostrous creatures fail in 5th (see many successsful Nid armies about ? and their Mc's are better ;o) also GK and Crons have pretty much made haywires a dead choice.

A talos with HWB will reliably stun lock vehicles all day long while it advances. Nids don't get T7 which is a massive thing. I will also point out that while GK & Crons tend to ignore the HWB, they also lack the ability to stop a talos at range reliably...

@Sorrowshard wrote:
Sorry buddy, this makes me think you are on a different planet, that much points for a t3 model ? you mad brah ? reavers cost the exact same and are overall just much better (another reason you wont see scourges) unless you kit them for anti infantry (which you can cover more efficeiently with the rest of the book, half the models will be twiddling their thumbs whenever the unit shoots , damn thats some expensive fragile ablavative wounds to get enough special weapons to really guarantee good results you are spending over 200 points , on 10 t3 models ?

Again with the attack - its not necessary and is just making me more grumpy. Sorry - T4, 5+ vs T3, 4+... they are about the same in terms of survival. I run them as 5 with 2 HWB - effective at shutting down vehicles and can keep safe easily in cover and at range. Its also able to redeploy as needed and will have a chance at survival in the open - unlike reavers.

@Sorrowshard wrote:
Agree on fun and theme , completely.Your thoughts on competitive simply does not follow through in the tourney results and is only getting worse. at best De are struggling to hold position around the middle of the field on average

Who's results? Yours? Which state/country?? What works in 1 meta may not else where - hence the disagreements i think between us.

@Sorrowshard wrote:
Not exactly stellar is it when you consider the book is still relitively new and has a fabulous model range ? I think there were 16 DE players at throne when I went (I think it was 250 players) only two of us made it to the top 10 tables and only I made it to the top 5 (took best DE general) the rest of them were way down the bottom apart from one guy in the middle tables.

Not every one likes the difficulty curve - they are tough to use when your used to 3+ saves.

Depending on where you are in the world i would love to meet up and play - i am on a round the world trip later in the year and have been given leave to get some games in by the good lady - not a challenge but a chance to talk in person, a drink or 2 and a friendly exchange of ideas.

I really want to see your actual fixes so i won't derail the discussions any more until changes are made available - i am genuinely interested in what you think is the fix to the issues you encounter. Who knows, maybe a new perspecitve, from else where in the world will help sort things out.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Fri Mar 02 2012, 14:29

Okay, I can understand the reason of arguments whether fixing the book is needed or not, but considering that this is rule development, I believe I will have to move it if there is not actually going to be development of rules here... Neutral

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Fri Mar 02 2012, 14:55

I was hoping this discussion would stay polite but your comment comes off as arogant and condescending. I was genuinely interested to see what you had to say but quote internet communities about thing being sub par means nothing more then your or my opinion, and i have little to no time for YTTH...

You ar right, re reading my stuff its probably a bit blunt, I can get a little intense on this subjust so you ahve my apologies, I think in person you would understand my intent a bit better, the joys of the interwebs ...

Comparing the points value of 2 units with no outside influences is almost the definition of a vacumn.

lets just agree to disagree and move on as clearly neither of us are agoing to change our minds on that subject.

comes practically everywhere! I agree the price is a little too high but thats more about the meta then the system as we pay for the punch vs Av13+. What i mean was that each hit will have cumulative effects, not just shake and repeat with no bonus after the first

Well at least we agree on the pricing, as for blasters, I think their acess is a bit restrictive, to be honest I dont think warriors should get two in a squad but it being a better weapon would go a long way to helping, tbh I don't have a problem paying 15 points for a gun if it is worth that. the thing is essentially we just have to keep plugging away until it dies or we run out of lances , usual;ly by the time you have done enough to get enough sahkes/stunns stacked you are probably spending as many lances in the long run, I am sceptical as to it's inclusion in 6th anyway

I only field a little unit for variety but can see that they are better than you make out. 130pts gets 10 with 2 liquifiers and an acothyst - all T4, FNP, 2 poison 4+ CCW each - thats cheap for what it is

Again lets just move on, no point either of us beating our head on a wall when the intention of this post was not to debate the dex, admittedly this stuff is worth having here for posterity and at least discussing initially so I can bear it in mind whilst working on the tweaks.

Incubi are not for hitting vehicles - i never said they were. Once you are out a vehicle, most units just desolve from an incubi charge. As for bouncing fairly often? really? what are you charging with them? Yeah - lack of grenades sucks but try more then the 4-5 the internet tells you to use - then laugh as you loose 1-2 and wipe the enemy. I agree that halberd purifiers suck but apart from that - point for point - incubi win almost every other combat vs the GK dex.

no but you said things had to be out of its box for Incubi to do anything, and they cant really help out with that either and the army sometimes struggles to open a tin for them to do something , if their transport gets knocked down they end up walking around with not alot to do against a fully meched ooponent. (many match ups) also if you take ten of them, lets assume you do get a charge on something de meched your lack of grenades causes problems but the worst part is that MSU is very common now, yup your 10 incubi will vaporise 5 meq, then are quite likely to get mangled by your opponent next turn etc, simply making tormentors maybe count as frag grenades would pretty much be everything they need 9hough I would prefer a more colourful solution).

I am at a tourney tomorrow with the duke so will have more feedback later but in the tests... he is way underpriced for just his combat stats... the free DS, 3+ poison and dual drugs is just gravy. I agree vect is over priced and should have eternal as after the seize he does nothing. Its not hard to get S5 hellions which with 15 of them will mess up parking lots very well. I agree they are a little over priced but still - of all the choices in the dex, our FA are the ones left wanting the most. That said, none are an outright bad choice.

as I said workable, I have had good success with hellions and actually like them, they just need a points drop.but it can be tough getting to to said parking lot with anything like the numbers you need. I dont mind vect stats but he needs more genius mastermind stuff and he is a fat points sink, maybe reserves manipulation and disruption giving out scout and stealth in a similar way GK GM's dish out USR's and abilities ? dunno , currently he's just a deathblender, admittedly quite a good one but surely there would be better ways of rpresenting his character ? what actually sets the duke apart is his ability to actually wound stuff , I did like him when I used him, I think I said he was alright, just for the record he is, I doubt I would change anything.

@Sorrowshard wrote:
Drazhar is a terrible character, he has no invuln, NO invuln, darting strike is semi useful but any half decent character with an invuln will laugh him off with a couple of saves then kill him so all he's really only any good for is blowing up meq troops, you would be better off simply spending 200 more points on Incubi, he's really bad , really really.bad. take him to any semi competitive event and you must expect to get punished... this is really not an attack on you but I really must question the quality of your opponents?

Now i am going to get grumpy. Because you are attacking me - regardless of your denial of it. Questioning my quality of opponent because i made a 'subpar' character work? Really?? I can play the 'how awesome am i' game as well - I have multiple event wins under my belt including the 2004 GT with 3rd ed daemon hunters. I can actually play the game and will place well in 99% of events i go too. Draz does not need a ++ save - running him solo lets you control the combat so effectivley he never takes any serious heat from enemies. When he died while i used him - it was being exposed to multiple (10) Ig melta guns after smashing a 30 man blob squad. Other than that i had him take out crowe, a GKGM and numerous other enemies without trying. is he over priced- yep - a good 50 points or so i reckon - is he terrible - no.

I agree a 50 point reduction would see me at least give him a spin from time to time, tell you what I actually want to like Drazzy, would you consider breaking down and explaining how you are getting such good milage from him ? I would really genuinely appreciate it, perhaps you are doing somthing I had not thought of ? I'm open to trying to understand why you think he is not utterly terrible. I'm sure a few others could do with a walkthrough too ?


@Sorrowshard wrote:
You entirely need fortune and doom on them, they are night and day with and without , durable ? oh lol, they are t3 with a 5+ save and cost a lot of points, and if you dont roll a few sixes they are screwed , just recently I had a full unit of harlies dragged down with 4 bases of scarabs .....after charging , no rends (happens often) followed by a few lucky saves and I was having to take those lovely 5+ saves. I WANT them to be good but they are not, they are only even a vaguely solid entry in the Eldar book with heavy psychic support.

I use them very successfully in my eldar lists with no psychic support. They are durable as heck thanks to veil of tears - by the time the enemy see's them your charging. Its a rare thing to harlies to fail if you have lined them up right. Why on earth would you chargee scarabs with harlies - you were never going to win that. Thats a tactical error more then a unit fail.

uhm, well scarabs are pretty fast and it was a case of charge them or be charged ? not ideal but was the best tactial option, to be honest it was terrible dicefail as had the fusion guns not missed I think they would have won comfortably. having run harlies both with and without psychic support I would never run them without, ever perhaps thats just personal pref but I would never reccommend anyone ot do so either...

A talos with HWB will reliably stun lock vehicles all day long while it advances. Nids don't get T7 which is a massive thing. I will also point out that while GK & Crons tend to ignore the HWB, they also lack the ability to stop a talos at range reliably...

I dont see T7 as much at all , would ultimately ahve an invuln or 6 wounds ,most of the stuff you have to worry about will wound you on at least a 3+ and ignore your armour gk will psycannon it to bits !! not that they really need to bother ....

Again with the attack - its not necessary and is just making me more grumpy. Sorry - T4, 5+ vs T3, 4+... they are about the same in terms of survival. I run them as 5 with 2 HWB - effective at shutting down vehicles and can keep safe easily in cover and at range. Its also able to redeploy as needed and will have a chance at survival in the open - unlike reavers.

Not at all, reavers can get flat out saves and handle themselves better in cc, not to mention drugs give them a chance to just start with a pain point, HWB's were quite funny for a while and actully works ok in fives, thats the best possible use for scourges really, except in competitive events you can expect to play some GK and crons, no point having a unit that may be useless in up to half of your games is there ? also I just hate the fact that to use scourges they just have to skulk in cover, they are grossly overpointed IMO 15 points is prob about right , I still would not take them over the reavers even then, perhaps if they got jetpacks/relentless from their wings ? and/or could take 4 weps per 5 men ? in their current format IMO they are a dead entry unworthy of the models/concept. (prob would have been ok in 4th Wink

@Sorrowshard wrote:
Agree on fun and theme , completely.Your thoughts on competitive simply does not follow through in the tourney results and is only getting worse. at best De are struggling to hold position around the middle of the field on average

Who's results? Yours? Which state/country?? What works in 1 meta may not else where - hence the disagreements i think between us.

Dunno I think if I remember correctly DE scraped middle feild at 3++ con, they got slapped about at out local tourney just last weekend er (Australia I think) I pretty much check any and all tourney results that get posted up , if a DE list does well Ill try and seek out the list for potential ideas. Uk GT is coming up soon I will be glued to the results, I have friends going so will hopefully know how DE are doing as the even unfolds, I suppose this years tourneys will ultimately tell us how DE came out of 5th in the wash, ultimately.


Not every one likes the difficulty curve - they are tough to use when your used to 3+ saves.

Or are they just tough to use because they are not very good ? been playing eldar elves and dark eldar for around 15 years or so now, only fell of the wagon once to do a spacewolves army that turned into more of an art project than a competitive exercise.

Depending on where you are in the world i would love to meet up and play - i am on a round the world trip later in the year and have been given leave to get some games in by the good lady - not a challenge but a chance to talk in person, a drink or 2 and a friendly exchange of ideas.

Come on down matey, I'm in the Uk I run a games club so tables/beer will not be a problem will be good to talk face to face, DE vs DE games are horrific anyway and wont actually prove anything in relation to this debate as we are talking about DE vs everyting else, I have alot on with tournaments /club/other hobbies this year , already booked in for two have another one thats a probable definite and it looks like my club will be running one. Ill try and remember to ping you an invite for that on the off chance it coincides with your travelling somehow. will give you an opportunity to assess the difference between your environment and ours .

I really want to see your actual fixes so i won't derail the discussions any more until changes are made available - i am genuinely interested in what you think is the fix to the issues you encounter. Who knows, maybe a new perspecitve, from else where in the world will help sort things out.[/quote]

yup yup agreed

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Fri Mar 02 2012, 18:54

I actually agree with most of Sorrowshard's points, so I guess we must have similar metas. I also would like the hear how anyone has made Drazhar useful, because frankly he always gets screwed by power weapons when I've used him.











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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Fri Mar 02 2012, 19:01

Hm well, I can't say I don't think Drazhar should have an inv save - or at least a dodge save - considering how lithe he supposedly is, so I can agree with that...

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Sat Mar 03 2012, 14:05

I would dissagree with sorrrowshard about Drazhar completely as although he is usless against power weapons i normally use him and a unit of incubi in a venom and target shooty units that are weak in close combat where he will slaughter the entire unit. Also most units in the new codex are very good and the new DE codex is far easyer to win with than Tau, my other army.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Sat Mar 03 2012, 21:09

A 200 + point character that is useless vs power weps = fail

Sadly any other character in that price range (from a 5th edition book) is better.

of course the DE are better Tau are a book from a previous edition ?

Anyway, we have established that there is some contention, Ill introduce the first unit and maybe we can discuss it a bit, then i'll proffer a modified version (if required) , we can then discuss it and make any tweaks.

also I am curious how does drazhar kil crowe without getting his "hand of death" on the way out ? and how you solo sqauds with any decent weapons in, he'll have to wipe them all out to not get hit ?

Okies,

Looking at the book I would like to leave the SC's for last partially because the standard template characters should be covered first.

So lets talk about the Archon.

I think he's almost there, two things that annoy me personally, he's just a beatstick, he adds nothing to the army beyond being an ok CC force multiplier.

background wise archons are great intellects, extremely old and very experienced in command, they also have access to batshit insane technologies and artefacts even to some stuff that pre dates the fall of the eldar.

Personally I think he is a bit weak in cc, I have run him through thick and thin in many configurations and find he lacks punch and is subsequently too fragile, honestly I don't know about other peoples experiences but I cannot seem to pass more than 2-3 shadowfeild saves ever , I can only think of a handful of games in the last year or so where it has proved any good to the point where I am trying a clone field and considering going without entirely as I have found often if he fails to kill his target first he just dies anyaway.

I really think they need something to show the way they do things/command and should really bring more to the table than just cc beatsticking, I think a gives out d3 usr/bonus' is a good mechanic I always found it very strange he/she has no way to mess with reserves ? i'm not sure what is more fitting, controlling the DE reserves or messing with your enemies ? maybe you could do either but not both and choose at the start of the game ?

Just throwing this out there to get things started and the first things that came into my head.

can give D3 units either.

Spoils of war - the archon commands these hand picked warriors with a specific task, -become scoring

Surprise attack/ambush - outflank/scout

meat for the grinder, the Archon sacrifices his worthless minions for tactical advantage - do not give up a kp (only the unit itself )

Splinterstorm - a non vehicle unit armed with splinter weapons given this bonus can re-roll ones to hit and to wound ?

Theres prob plenty more you could come up with but you get the idea.

I doubt I would actually touch his stats, I quite like the idea of differentiating the character of various Archons with a simple set of options like the SW sagas, IE a few set choices/buffs of which you can have one ? I'll have to work on some characterful/original ideas for this , copy pasta of space wolves ones would be lame lame.

other than that maybe a little look at his available wargear.

How he interacts withe the court/the court will need looking at, as currently I don't think I have ever seen one used, mine is still in it's blisters, I have them for completions sake and they will get painted maybe last and used for casual games, they are nice models Its a shame you don't see them.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Sun Mar 04 2012, 00:44

In fairness, I don't think that's just an issue with the Archon, it's a point I've made elsewhere on the forum, but there's a lack of tactical options in general in 40k. Personally I'd have gone with D3 special rules unique to each dex but as recompense you lose an equal number of stat points (no more than -1 from each stat) to allow for the HQ to have spent more time learning strategy instead of weapons proficiency.

That being said, I'd have to go along with what many have already said, DE isn't a bad codex, though from what I gather, GK is overpowered. I personally disagree with even the principle of having one in the first place but that's a topic for another post.

I'm struggling to see how your tournie comments support your view. 2 DE players in the top ten? There are 14 different races/armies you can choose from, sounds like decent representation to me given it's a relatively new dex. What were the other 8? Interestingly, if you split the 250 players by the number of armies available, you should get 18 of each type assuming an even spread. DE are always going to have a smaller representation for two reasons. 1-They're not space marines, which are always going to be the most popular option, it's GW's signature creation after all. 2-They're not easy to use. It's the kind of dex that's intended to win big or lose big, which puts a lot of people off.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Mon Mar 05 2012, 10:41

umm, tis pretty simple really, some codex are essentially unplayable or see very little representation , for example at the sam tourney there were 3 necron players ? you tend to see newer Dex's in higher quantities, there was of course all the marines of the rainbow there, but if you think at the time DE were the second newest book I would tend to expect more, this would definitely tend to be more exaggerated for an army perceived to be very good, hence the current GK spam.

Space marines would be less popular if the balance of power /support was more evenly spread, gw does more books/support/models for marines so they get more marine players, simples , it's self perpetuating.

I see way more guard armies in this edition than ever before, its because they have a solid book that has remained competitive in spite of subsequent releases.


Do you not think that if all the books were of a similar power level that all the races would see a more even representation ?

I maintain that they are not easy to use because they are underpowered.


anyway if you would like to continue this convo I'm happy to go to PM but I would like to not derail the thread any further.

Thanks

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Okies,

Looking at the book I would like to leave the SC's for last partially because the standard template characters should be covered first.

So lets talk about the Archon.

I think he's almost there, two things that annoy me personally, he's just a beatstick, he adds nothing to the army beyond being an ok CC force multiplier.

background wise archons are great intellects, extremely old and very experienced in command, they also have access to batshit insane technologies and artefacts even to some stuff that pre dates the fall of the eldar.

Personally I think he is a bit weak in cc, I have run him through thick and thin in many configurations and find he lacks punch and is subsequently too fragile, honestly I don't know about other peoples experiences but I cannot seem to pass more than 2-3 shadowfeild saves ever , I can only think of a handful of games in the last year or so where it has proved any good to the point where I am trying a clone field and considering going without entirely as I have found often if he fails to kill his target first he just dies anyaway.

I really think they need something to show the way they do things/command and should really bring more to the table than just cc beatsticking, I think a gives out d3 usr/bonus' is a good mechanic I always found it very strange he/she has no way to mess with reserves ? i'm not sure what is more fitting, controlling the DE reserves or messing with your enemies ? maybe you could do either but not both and choose at the start of the game ?

Just throwing this out there to get things started and the first things that came into my head.

can give D3 units either.

Spoils of war - the archon commands these hand picked warriors with a specific task, -become scoring

Surprise attack/ambush - outflank/scout

meat for the grinder, the Archon sacrifices his worthless minions for tactical advantage - do not give up a kp (only the unit itself )

Splinterstorm - a non vehicle unit armed with splinter weapons given this bonus can re-roll ones to hit and to wound ?

Theres prob plenty more you could come up with but you get the idea.

I doubt I would actually touch his stats, I quite like the idea of differentiating the character of various Archons with a simple set of options like the SW sagas, IE a few set choices/buffs of which you can have one ? I'll have to work on some characterful/original ideas for this , copy pasta of space wolves ones would be lame lame.

other than that maybe a little look at his available wargear.

How he interacts withe the court/the court will need looking at, as currently I don't think I have ever seen one used, mine is still in it's blisters, I have them for completions sake and they will get painted maybe last and used for casual games, they are nice models Its a shame you don't see them.


Ok I was hoping do discuss any issues before doing a full statline/wargear runthrough , I'll Do up a first draft full unit entry with options and meybe you fellas can feedback.

Archon - 80 points ?

Composition- 1 Archon Unit type- Infantry Wargear - Kabalite armour, CC wep, pistol, plasma grenades

Special Rules Archenemy, Archetype , Fleet, Night vision, Power from Pain, Independant.

Archenemy - Staying at the top in commoragh requires a certain 'Je ne sais quoi' Archons always have a masterplan, a trick up their sleeve , a contingency. These master schemers possess a vicious genius and a gift for ruthless terror warfare.

At the beginning of the game after both sides have set up the Archon may nominate D3 units, choose ONE of the following, each unit gains the described effect for the game.

Whats mine is mine- The Archon is here to collect certain artefacts or creatures for his collections, hand picked teams have been tasked with their retrieval, = the unit becomes scoring.

The trap is sprung- The Archon uses his main force to distract the enemy for a crushing flank attack = The unit gains ouflank.

Lying in wait - the Archon has manipulated his hapless foe into engaging on his terms = units gain scout.

The Butchers bill - The Archon sacrifices his worthless minions to gain tactical advantage. = The unit is worth no kill points Applies only to units, not transports.

Archetype- No two Archons are the same and their eccentricities and abilities define both them and their Kabal. Some love nothing more than the visceral thrill of personal combat, where others may delight in the honing of their intellect and strategies.(one each, no duplicates in army)

Black knight- Re rolls to hit in Close combat + 15 pts

Master Manipulator - gains the ability to +1/-1 reserve rolls + 25pts

Pirate Prince- Gives em a broadside - Lance strikes in lieu of shooting/running = ??? points (will be very similar to extant rules)

Arcanist- acess to Arcane wargear , and equipment becomes Master crafted. = 15 points

Menagerie - Beast packs become troops, If the Archon joins the unit his movement becomes the same as theirs. - ??? points

Right, thats as far as I have got, obviously the Archetypes need work and there are possibly more fitting ones or better ways of representing the current ones, I see it as a system much like the Saga's.

I was going to to the wargear at the same time but I think I am going to revise the whole warger section in one go and then decide what he gets access to.





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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Mon Mar 05 2012, 12:48

I love You Sorrow.

Not in romantic/erotic way.





Anyway I think Lance rule need serious overhaul vs. AV 10-12. It's most common armor range that happen to "negate" lance rule. Rule yet we pay premium for .

In fact, in world where Meltagun cost 10 points, I call 15 points for Blaster BS. Not only it have AP1, but also Melta as backup (not to mention some troops can pick 2 Meltaguns and Combi-melta - more than enough to fry ANY tank (even LR variant from Forgeworld, one with Thunderfire Cannon))

So lance need change. I propose AP1 for anything not AV 13+ (so heavy tanks get only AV reduction)

Next, Blasters in troop units. Limit of one Blaster per Warriors unit is another genius idea of Phil. I didn't liked 'ardboyz limit, nor this one. Also we aren't marines, so this "special + heavy" weapons loadout is... stupid .

If I can change it, then:
You can pick Shredder/Blaster instead of Lance.

Bam! 10 warriors in Raider is now really useful unit. Also 20 Warriors are nice alternative, 3 Blasters? Me gusta.

Wyches could get option of Blast Pistol instead of Wych Weapon.

Wracks NEED... something to deal with tanks (maybe... option to take 1 Grot per 5 Wracks?). Or price reduction, since now they are just awful 'ardboyz/"golden ticket" for vehicle.

Raiders are way too expensive. I guess GW didn't included discount for dead troops lol. 45-50 points is IMHO best with current Lance rule, maybe more with something better.

25 points for Lances is pure ripoff. 15 points for Blast Pistol is pure ripoff.
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Mon Mar 05 2012, 14:49

Well, I can't say I don't like what I am seeing...
+1 on what is in the two posts above. Indeed, the darklight weapons do cost too much, and indeed, you should be able to take more than one blaster/shredder - I really can't see why you can take two of them when you can take two lances/SCs.

Dunno about putting grotesques in wrack squads, I prefer having them as a separate unit; rather something... I dunno... Well, perhaps some sort of machine their haemonculus have lended them?

I like the bonus rules you can give to the archon, though I am not so sure about arcanist (considering that is a pretty large part of the reason to take a haemie). That would if so be taking up to one, I'd say.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing De 5th Ed project   Mon Mar 05 2012, 15:14

@Saintspirit wrote:

Dunno about putting grotesques in wrack squads, I prefer having them as a separate unit; rather something... I dunno... Well, perhaps some sort of machine their haemonculus have lended them?

Some sort of Powerfist upgrade would do too. Anything that hit with decent strength or damage tanks somehow.


Right now Wracks hit tanks like a girls.

In fact, even worse due to lack of Haywire Grenades.
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