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 Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches

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Old vs. New?
Old Wyches - the classic Tarpit o' Doom
31%
 31% [ 12 ]
New Wyches - Redefining drugged out gladiators
54%
 54% [ 21 ]
I can't decide - they are both amazing with no clear winner
3%
 3% [ 1 ]
I approve of Deldar in thongs!
12%
 12% [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 39
 

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PostSubject: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Wed Feb 29 2012, 04:41


Greetings and welcome to Battle 2 of Old vs. New.
Let me again make clear - this is NOT about the model, we can leave that to that section of the Dark City. What we're talking about is raw battlefield power - which Wych squad was the superior warmachine?



Slot and Cost

As usual, the first basic question is - did they change the cost of the model, and is the model still in the same slot of the codex?

In the Old Codex - Wyches were Elite only, though you could take an HQ option (Archite) to make them count as Troops (and also to make Warriors count as Elite).
In the new Codex Wyches are Troops - and have an upgraded version that can be taken in the Elite slot as well.

Old Wyches cost 12 points a pop (+8 to get a Succubus - the equivalent of today's Hekatrix)
New Wyches cost 10 (10 for a Hekatrix) and Bloodbrides rack up as 13 and 10.

I'm going to mostly manage not to make annoyed remarks about changing the name of the sergeant upgrade in the new codex and using the name of the old sarge as a new HQ and blargity-blarg for no reason...not bitter. Anyway, New Wyches are more accessible and don't require HQ options to make them troops, and their cost is better on average.

Advantage? - New!

Stats

This should be an easy one to compare. Did they take away or add to the stat line?

The Old Wyches
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3 1 6 1 8 6+

The Old Succubus
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3 1 6 2 8 6+

The New Wyches
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3 1 6 1 8 6+

The New Hekatrix
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3 1 6 2 9 6+

So, totally identical except for the fairly nice leadership buff on the sarge upgrade - to top it off they get plasma grenades stock (the old Wyches had to pay for those). Other (slight) change - the squad size for new is 5-15 but for old was 5-20...not that anyone ever took 20 except in very specific WWP builds.

Advantage? - New!

Wargear

What good are stats without awesome weapons to use them with? What could the Wyches bring to help them unleash hell on the battlefield?

New

I suspect everyone is fairly familiar with what Wyches bring to the table. The squad gets the option of taking Haywire grenades that are pretty boss. They also have access once for every five Wyches to snag a Wych Weapon - generally these are just about providing extra attacks, but they can also take Shardnets to lock down opposing power hitters.

The Hekatrix has access to the basic tools of the trade - able to claim a Blast Pistol to help shoot vehicles, or to snag a grenade launcher to grant defensive grenades. Also, she has access to the options of a V.Blade, an Aggie, or a Power Weapon.

The squad, along with the army, also gets a drug roll effect; 2d6 pick highest for run, +1 WS, +1 S, +1A, re-roll failed wounds, or get a pain token at game start.

They can also nab a Raider.

Old

One of the first differences new players might not be aware of is this - old Wyches (indeed, all units with drugs) rolled their drug roll separately. So you could have different effects across the army. This was kind of nice because you could plan your assaults a little smarter (+1 WS guys would be focused more on tarpitting, +1 S would go and brawl with T4 opponents, that sort of thing)

We also had a slightly different drug chart then;
No re-roll wounds, we re-rolled attacks.
No 2d6 pick highest roll...instead we got 12" assault range just like Beasts...yeah, I miss that.
Also, no Pain Token - instead we got a drug effect that gave us an Initiative of 'first' Yes, that isn't Init 10 - it is Init 'First'
Do you halve my Init? That's cute - my Init is still first.
Does your Init become 1,000 on the assault? That's cute, my Init is still first.
Oh, you're in cover and I don't come stock with grenades so I strike at Init 1 - that's cool, because I still strike First.
Miss that one too.

I will admit the FNP thing is pretty awesome for new Wyches though Wink

What else is different? Old Wyches paid twice as much for Haywire grenades (that sucks) and also had to pay 1 point each to have Plasma Grenades (I often fielded armies without them). We also had a different sort of setup for Wych Weapons that really needs to be explained (and for the old Archons out there - I'm using the updated codex with the stamp, so - sorry - no explaining the old Hydraknives and stuff to the newbs, sorry Smile ).

For starters - it was a +1 point upgrade per Wych, and the whole squad had to pay for it (making it markedly cheaper than New Wych Weapons). What did we get for that? Well...mostly we got to troll anything that attacked us.

We made it so any unit we were fighting counted as not having an extra CCW/pistol (trolololol!)
If your unmodified Str was 5 or less you halved your WS when attacking us (so if we got +1 WS drug MEQ hit us on 5s)

Cute, huh? People hated that.
Oh, yeah - we could also take Shredders and Blasters in the unit. Very Happy 2 of them, no matter how big or small the squad was. The Blasters cost 5 points (the Shredders cost 10 - in a usual GW derp-da-doo moment). Blasters only had 12" range back then - but Wyches could actually serve as sort of the precursor to the Trueborn of today - imagine what you would do with Trueborn that were deadly in assault? Yeah, that's what we used to do with Wyches.

As for the Succubus - she'd have access to the Armory and ALL THE OPTIONS! Now, as I've said before, the Armoury was a list with prices of wargear...and basically any character in your army could get anything listed there as long as you had the points.

So the Succubus could buy a Shadowfield or something. As a consequence she could get a Punisher/T.Helm combo (+1 S and +1 A) a combat drug dispenser (pick your drug of choice) or any of a dozen other weapons and tools. However, much like today, usually people just bought the Agoniser and called it a day, so I won't bore you with all the other options available.

--------------------------------------

Old unquestionably has more toys to play with. Also, it is my opinion that the old Wych Weapons were superior, though I will happily accept if you want to argue that. Probably one of the biggest shifts is the presence of the option of taking Blasters/Shredders in the squad - as even with more expensive Haywire Grenades it made the Wyches a dramatically more dangerous force on the tabletop. If the enemy are in vehicles - shoot them. If you can't out assault them - shoot them. If you can't out-shoot them - assault them. It was an amazing increase in the options available to the Wyches. The New Wyches mostly show a greater ability to survive damage, but have become more pigeon-holed as far as what they could or couldn't do on the table top. They assault stuff - if that doesn't work then you probably wasted points bringing them.

As usual - I favor adaptability on the board, and consider the old Wych Weapons superior for the core tarpit/grind goal of Wyches.

Advantage? - Old!


Face to Face in Battle!

Now for the important question - who wins in a straight up fight between the two? This is a *very* complicated matchup, because there are a lot of variables. Do the old Wyches get to sit in their Raider shooting Blasters? Do the New Wyches get to try to Haywire a Raider to death after surrounding it for the instakill effect? What about drugs - there are so many permutations of drugs available to them, what shall we do? This isn't even getting into roles - the old Wyches could be run as 5 man squads with Blasters as super affordable tank hunters and tarpit tools, and even new Wyches have some alternate builds.

For my own sanity I'm just going to go with a simple concept - two 10 Wych squads versus each other, equipped to be basically the same and in the same ballpark of cost.

I'll also try to provide info on differing drug effects as we go. Let's check out our squads;

10 Old Wyches w. Succubus w. Agoniser.
All have Wych Weapons and Plasma Grenades and 2 have Blasters.
178 points (Raider would have been 55 points)

10 New Wyches w. Hekatrix w. Agoniser
All have Haywire Grenades and I gave 1 Razorflail and 1 Hydra Gauntlet to the squad as well.
170 points (Raider would be...well, let's be honest and say 70 points Wink )

I think both new and old players will agree these are fairly representative squads if the goal is to inflict damage upon your opponent in the most direct smashmouth way possible. Both builds are also very likely to be seen in tournament play. I did cheat a touch with the New Wych Weapons - I just figured I'd split the difference on them since I know there's a debate as to which people like better. One is better in specific situations, the other is more reliable but can occasionally weaken a drug effect.

No shooting at each other - we'll just presume they would use fleet to assure the charge.

New Wyches Assault Old Wyches
Their Inits are identical, so everything happens at once (unless Old Wyches have strike first drug effect - I'll do that one later)
New Wyches lose 10 attacks due to Old Wych Weapons.
20.5 attacks (Hydraguantlets accounting for the 3.5) - 9.25 hit - 4.625 wound (Razorflail is 1.777 hits and 1.333 wounds additional) Aggie = .5 wounds -- 6.45 wounds overall - 3.22 after saves
+1 S drug = 20.5 attacks (Hydraguantlets accounting for the 3.5) - 9.25 hit - 6.16 wound (Razorflail is 1.777 hits and 1.57 wounds additional) Aggie = .5 wounds -- 4.11 after wounds
Re-roll wounds = 6.9375 wounds + Razorflail's 1.333 Aggie = .75 wounds -- 4.5 after saves
+1 Attacks = 6.625 wounds + Razorflail's 1.687 Aggie = .75 wounds -- 4.53 after saves
+1 WS = no change (shifts WS from being 2 to being 3 - big whup)
FNP = no change.

If Old Wyches got +1 WS then, on average, there are about 33% less wounds that are going to be inflicted. So, it drops from 3.22-4.53 wounds to 2.14 - 3.02.
If Old Wyches got 'strike first' drug then all the numbers become a pain to assess - but basically 2.63 New Wyches would be dead before they swung - being around 25% of their attack power - so the numbers would shift from 3.22-4.53 wounds to 2.41 - 3.39 wounds.

The best situation for Old Wyches is to get +1 Attack to help mitigate the old Wych Weapons and to also hope the new Wyches didn't get either +1 WS or 'Strike First'

Old Wyches strike at the same initiative.
18 attacks and 3 Aggie swings - 9 hits and 4.5 wounds and 1.5 hits and .75 wounds -- 2.63 wounds after saves
if they got +1 WS - 12 hits and 2 hits - for 3.5 wounds after saves.
If they got +1 Str - 3.375 wounds after saves
If they got +1 Attack - 3.875 wounds after saves
Re-roll misses - 4.5 wounds after saves
Charge = no change (though it does suggest they wouldn't be in this situation Wink )
Strike First is covered above.

If New Wyches got FNP the damage range shifts to 1.31 - 2.25

So their range is 2.63 - 4.5 wounds inflicted.
If New Wyches got FNP the damage range shifts to 1.31 - 2.25 (<-- actually it's not that bad, I got lazy about tracking the Aggie wounds...um, I'm too lazy to try to fix that now, sorry Wink )
The best combo for them is to get +1 WS which maximizes their defense and offense and they want to hope the New Wyches don't get FNP.

This is pretty shocking - *receiving the charge* the damage output for the Old Wyches is generally as good or better across the board - I suspect this is because of their situation as preeminent tarpitters.

The oddball consideration is that if the New Wyches have FNP (especially if they got it from a Haem and thus could have some other drug/furious charge benefit they would start performing much better.

On average - lacking a Haem - the Old Wyches are going to win this grind down fight (New Wyches will start only generating 1 attack each on all later rounds).
I honestly don't even see any reason to crunch the numbers for the Old Wyches having the charge - it's quite clear that their 31 attacks vs. a return attack of 11 swings is not even going to be a contest - I bet they win that easily even if the New Wyches get FNP.

Advantage? - Old!

=================================
=================================

So that's my breakdown.

There are some surprising results here. I always knew how tough Old Wyches were, but I was shocked to see how well they could stomp their new opposition (they were always good at killing stuff that was T3) The other interesting takeaway though, is what FNP is doing to the mix - that dramatically reduced the Old Wyches impact (even with me donking the number worse than it deserved, it was assuredly getting them about 1 less dead New Wych in every situation) If you consider that most New Wyches are fielded with FNP via Haem that's a pretty big twist to a straight matchup (of course, with 50+ points given to the New Wyches I'm not sure what you'd do to re-balance the fight - maybe give the Old Wyches a Dracite or something? But that would be a lot of extra power weapon attacks and would skew things again.

I think the clear takeaway is that FNP is indeed an amazing tarpit tool for survivability.
But the old Wych Weapons were also shockingly good at it as well (indeed, in assault - provably better versus most opponents).
The big win with FNP was its ability to help protect us *outside of assault* and there's no question the New Wyches are better at that.
Old Wyches also had the interesting foible of more wargear options and the deadly 2x Blaster option - I would gladly pay the old 12-13pts per Wych to have the option to add on Blasters to the squads. It would redefine what we could do with our Elite slots and would allow us to not need to spam Warriors in Venoms, but rather spam Wyches in them

My final call is - I would rather have old wargear options and old Wych Weapons (and, even old Drugs).
I would rather keep FNP via Power From Pain.

On the whole, my desire leans more towards the old stuff,a nd I think except for an army wide special rule the Old Wyches are clearly superior - since it's an army wide rule and not a Wych rule, I have to decide that it's not the New Wyches which are better, but rather our new army wide rules. So that can't count for as big a win for the New Wyches

Winner in my mind - Old Wyches.

That's my call - what's yours?

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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Wed Feb 29 2012, 13:50

Old Wych weapons are what it comes down to for me. While I don't mind the new drugs the lack of the old weapons makes them not as good as they were. That and I am thinking of dropping them from my lists. Despite how awesome the models are they just don't work for me, I fail 95% of their dodge and FNPs (if they even get to use the FNP).... I still love them though and that's the real shame that my dice don't co-operate with their use.
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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Wed Feb 29 2012, 15:45

I must say, 4++ with FNP on top in CC is rather impressive.

But I like killing stuff, so Old Wyches are win in my book.
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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Wed Feb 29 2012, 20:41

@Local Ork - to be honest, I'm actually pretty sure that New Wyches have a better damage output possibility on the whole via their Wych Weapons which can be used to increase damage. What Old Wyches were better at was not taking damage. Though I'll admit the Blasters and ability to take a really amped up Succubus might shift that assessment.

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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Wed Feb 29 2012, 21:23

New Wyches win out in my book, as they are Troops -alongside- Warriors. Losing Beast Charge hurts but I find this easy to forgive. Losing the Blaster hardly made any difference to me; all the more reason to Fleet and get stuck in with haywires ftw!

Verdict: NEW

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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Wed Feb 29 2012, 21:24

New Wyches are a little better in current book then old wyches, i use them mostly to troll Dreadnaughts, like the look on my mates face when i dissasemble his Blood Talons from Furioso.Thats a truly adrenalin, we bet who will beat who , one bad roll and one side down.

Old Wyches sure win due to blasters , i'd love to have a squad that can both blow transport and assault passengers, thats kinds lacking in the book right now, with that job being primary handed to venoms.
Voted for New Wyches nonetheless, they are in a good spot.

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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Wed Feb 29 2012, 21:52

@Thor665 wrote:
@Local Ork - to be honest, I'm actually pretty sure that New Wyches have a better damage output possibility on the whole via their Wych Weapons which can be used to increase damage. What Old Wyches were better at was not taking damage. Though I'll admit the Blasters and ability to take a really amped up Succubus might shift that assessment.

Yes, multiple Blaster shots make them less helpless vs. mech. Hekatrix + attached Succubus do help slightly tho.

I hate killing tanks in CC if I have 6+ armor since most weapons have AP6.
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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Wed Feb 29 2012, 22:23

@Raneth wrote:
New Wyches win out in my book, as they are Troops -alongside- Warriors.
That is a good point, being able to use both as Troops at the same time is pretty sweet.

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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Wed Feb 29 2012, 22:39

Even better - You can mix Wych and Warriors both in Troops and Elites.
Or field 150% more units of certain type.
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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Thu Mar 01 2012, 01:47

True, though I would note when Wyches=Trueblasters there was less need for that. Also, you use to be able to take Wych squads in the HQ slots as part of a retinue - so even in a non-Cult army you could field 4 units of Wyches - and in a Cult army you could field 8.

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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Thu Mar 01 2012, 16:26

Wow, the New Wyches are pulling away in a landslide.

Is it the FNP winning the bout for them, or the ability to be a Troop choice without an HQ?

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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Thu Mar 01 2012, 16:31

personally its the old wyches for me. Those old(ish) wych weapons really pull it out for me. Making Marines hit you on 5s and you always hit on 3s is so amazing its not even funny. Plus old drugs and you got yourself a winner. I wouldnt mind paying old prices if we got those two things back Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Thu Mar 01 2012, 16:59

The irony is that the very first Wych weapons are very similar to the ones we have now!

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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Thu Mar 01 2012, 20:37

It's only ironic insomuch as GW took them away to simplify things, and then brought them back in the "more simplified" ruleset.

Heck if I can figure that one out Wink

The old Hydraknives were better than the Hydragauntlets though.

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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Sat Mar 03 2012, 10:23

No way,I love the old wychs alot better then the new.Yes feel no pain is good but come on the whole army can now have that not just Wychs.I f Wychs were the only ones to have Had Feel NO Pain then fine the new ones would be better.
So I vote for the Old Ones....This for me is the biggest problems with this new Dex.I used to run a total Wych army.Now I have to learn to Play the DE all over again .Sux Evil or Very Mad
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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Sat Mar 03 2012, 14:38

@massaen hence why I said oldish Razz

I really miss those wych weapons though. always hitting on 3s and reducing incoming attacks is like our current WS drug and shardnet all rolled up into one. That is huge in my book. Sure the new weapons provide diversity in roles and the ability to kill more (relatively) but I think that modifying the dice rolls is a great way to do the same thing. Always hitting on 3s and wounding on 5s rounded it out to half anyway, and you add the chance to make Marines hit you on 5s... that is huge, and it would fit our glatator women. Sadly then I think they would be too good at 10 pts per model, and wouldnt be the inexpensive tarpit we have now. But I think I would pay the price to have those abilities back

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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Sat Mar 03 2012, 17:23

You still hit on 4s, it only lowered the opponent's WS when they swing at us, not when we swing at them.

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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Sun Mar 04 2012, 18:29

Interesting, going into the weekend the Old Wyches were starting to close the gap, now the new ones are pulling ahead by a solid margin again.

I'm guessing it's the easy access to being a Troop slot that wins it for them, in basically every other way Old Wyches are provably superior.

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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Mon Mar 05 2012, 01:48

Old one ruled CC more than new ones do but they are troops off the bat and get access to FNP and now actually can survive when their Raider explodes. I even had many epic moments with my Wyches soaking a lot of fire do to the 4+ cover/FnP combo. I'm blessed with a good FnP roll.

So yes, I miss the old Wyche Weapons but I'm glad my wyches survive better than before. I also like it better in the old drug system that you had to roll separately for every squad. This gave you different specialists and one bad roll didn't nerf the wyches that much.

So, a draw for me, since I used to play Wych Cult.
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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Mon Mar 05 2012, 17:04

@Thor665 wrote:
I'm guessing it's the easy access to being a Troop slot that wins it for them, in basically every other way Old Wyches are provably superior.
And cheap! Don't forget cheap. Old Wyches are like, Bloodbride expensive. Perhaps Old Wyches vs Bloodbrides would even be the fairer comparison.

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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Mon Mar 05 2012, 17:26

I think cheap is pretty debatable - personally.

The individual model is cheaper - but when building a unit if you're going for Wych Weapons then the Old Wyches got those cheaper and it balances, and if you're going for anti-tank new Wyches need to buy Haywires individually while old Wyches get cheap Blasters and an Aggie that can hurt vehicles. Also Old Wyches got their Sarge upgrade cheaper. The cost comparison is pretty dang close.

Note that my direct comparison only had a difference of 8 points - and Old Wyches had cheaper Raiders.

EDIT: Actually, with the Raider point shift - you always used to get Old Wyches cheaper than you get New Wyches. Not that I'm denying the New Raider with FFs isn't nice, but cheap and quality are different debates.

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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Mon Mar 05 2012, 19:59

Personally, I voted for the Hags (term for old witch lol) rather then the young ones despite being a newbie with Dark Eldar, the power of the old Wych Weapons combined with better Drugs (Feel No Pain excluded of course) and basically better Trueborn with Assault power is amazing, though New Wyches do get the scoring nod and Feel No Pain is still awesome.

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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Tue Mar 06 2012, 17:49

@Thor665 wrote:
and Old Wyches had cheaper Raiders

Trudat, but since that isn't restricted to Wyches I hadn't accounted for it... nevermind the current Wych weapons being horribly overcosted. I'm just trying to be positive about the current situation here, there's already too many grumpy nostalgics in the world Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Tue Mar 06 2012, 20:39

I'm not closing this one, but it's Tuesday - so it's time to call a winner, and with a solid lead of five votes, looks like the word is that New Wyches are superior to the Old Wyches.

Make sure to check out the new poll of Vehicles vs. Vehicles.

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Grumpy Kwi
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Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : San Jose, CA

PostSubject: Re: Old Vs. New - Battle of the Wyches   Thu Mar 08 2012, 14:35

I miss the Archite plain and simple, care less about old versus new stats or weapons with wyches. I suppose I like the new because I got tired of hearing how the old wyches were broken every time I won.

Wych Cult theme was easier to run with the old codex. Now, they do not seem right and everyone is too tempted to put haemys in them (and still call it a wych cult, bah!) - no Archite with Haemys and Hekatix's living together in mass hesteria, apocalyptic.

I am happy to see people trying to play Coven lists but I can not tell you the last time I saw anyone try a good themed Wych Cult.

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@Sorrowshard wrote:
Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....
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