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 When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?

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stapebren7502
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Tue Apr 17 2012, 05:03

Ok So I played the same guy again with his GK.I changed my list up a bit.I used the Duke Succubus,2 squads of wychs one was the Brides.Lots of troups on Raiders.Trueborn on a Venom and # Ravangers.I got smoked.Well for one my dice were really bad for me and he couldnt miss a safe.

He had 2 dreads,two razor backs two squdes of troops Vin assasin 3 squad of termms,Lib was in the HQ squad.

I was dead my turn 4.Once all his Term came in at the same time it was all over.They just have answers for everything that comes there way.Its very very hard to fight them.If your dice fail you have no chance against them.Am I missing something?

Help me cause my DE are about to get put up.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Tue Apr 17 2012, 07:16

No, you are not missing anything, thats just how it is, they have all the answers, you dont.

Gk is an OP book , DE is a flawed one, playing 'well' only gets you so far...

I felt the way you do after playing them a few times, I kinda just avoid games with them, if I get them at a tourney, Ill give it a go, there is no shame in loosing when you are not being defeated by your oponents ability, you are just playing the book for the most part.


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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Tue Apr 17 2012, 12:12

Amusingly, one of the best units to assault Grey Knights with are (certain) Khorne daemons, which is surprising considering the purpose of GK. They are also immune to the effects of force weapons, as force weapons (when activated) inflict Instant Death, which daemons are immune to...

Anyway, here's a handy guide on how to beat GK with DE:

1) Either kill or hide from any vehicles with a 48" range. The more of those he has in the army, the harder your fight will be. Said vehicles are: Psyflemen (Dreadnoughts with two twin-linked autocannons with Psybolt ammo), Razorbacks, Land Raiders. If you see a Land Raider, laugh heartily and nuke it with lances. Psyflemen are more annoying, and are cheap too.

2) All shooting on GK infantry maxes out at 24". Our shooting is 36". Factoring in movement (most GK stuff is either an assault weapon or has an assault profile), you only have 6" "wiggle room" to avoid being shot at. Nightshields will double this, and importantly will make it easier to hide from 48" vehicles too (you still won't be able to out-range them). Nightshields wreck GK and Necron shooting completely.

3) Wyches laugh at cleansing flame. Actually laugh. The Psychic power that causes so rage just bounces off them. Firstly, it is classified as a close combat attack (see GK FAQ) so we can take the 4+ invul save against it. Secondly, as it permits armour saves to be taken, we can take FnP against it.

4) Wyches also deal with Psyflemen very well providing you can get them close enough. They get their 4+ invul against the close combat hits, and more importantly can (slowly) take it out with Haywire Grenades. My Wyches have Enhanced Aethersails on their Raiders mainly for intercepting back-line Dreadnoughts ASAP.

5) Incubi are our main marine killing tools. GK with Halberds are Marines +1. Don't throw Incubi at them unless a) they have grenades so keep their I or b) you are assaulting a unit that is already locked in combat from a previous turn. And finally, never ever ever assault GK with Halberds unless you have Furious Charge. This will tie you for initiative, and while you will lose a lot of guys, they will lose a lot too. Against Purifiers, Incubi with a pain token are even better at shrugging off Cleansing Flame too. Hopefully the two squads will wipe each other out. However, if you have an Archon with them (likely to give them grenades via the Phantasm Grenade Launcher), the Archon should take out quite a few first, thus increasing your chances of survival.

6) Your list was quite bad in general, let alone to go up against GK. Sorry!

Apologies to go against the train of thought here, but GK are actually quite an easy army for DE to deal with. The only real thing that causes issues are Psyflemen - everything else either dies quickly or can be kited around the table. DE - despite having some good CC units - is not a close combat codex. Stop trying to play it like one. DE have every tool going to take on GK and can pack them all in an all-comers list.


edit: And please don't bring Apoc into balance discussions - Apoc isn't designed for balance. At all. Not even close.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Tue Apr 17 2012, 12:39

Easier said than done with the Land Raider. I've had several games where I've played against one, fired every lance I've had at it for 3 or more turns and barely scratched the paint let alone blown the thing up. I am firmly of the opinion that lances take out transports only. Big tanks like that you are probably better off with Haywires as you can't stunlock the damn things as they are Space Marines and have the stupid Machine Spirit which negates the only real viable tactic we have against AV14.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Tue Apr 17 2012, 14:35

Quote :
Don't throw Incubi at them unless a) they have grenades so keep their I or b) you are assaulting a unit that is already locked in combat from a previous turn.
Doesnt help, since Incubi are I5 and GK are I6, however smart way you are assaulting they gonna hit first...
wounding on 2+/3+ and ignoring armor and FnP.

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Tue Apr 17 2012, 14:59

Grey Knights are a hard army to play against because they can tool themselves up to deal with any situation. I've played two guys with GK. The first maxes out paladins and generally doesn't know how to effectivly use them and can be beaten with manouverability and nightshields. The second knows exactly how to use a GK list and has only been beaten when it has been an objective game with lots of Scenery. If he sits at the back in cover with a half decent list you will struggle to budge him. I usually go for a mech list against GK and rush everything down one flank maximising LoS, Cover from vehicles and him having to shoot through his own men and simply overwhelming small groups of men and vehicles down one side with an entire army. Never try a fair fight against GK because there codex prevents this from ever happening. I would just suggest overwhelming them, make it as unfair as possible and hope to get those cover saves. GK once they have lost there dreadknights/noughts etc can be more easily picked off but are still a tough army to beat, don't think they are as hard to beat as a mech IG list though.

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Tue Apr 17 2012, 15:14

Sami wrote:
Amusingly, one of the best units to assault Grey Knights with are (certain) Khorne daemons, which is surprising considering the purpose of GK. They are also immune to the effects of force weapons, as force weapons (when activated) inflict Instant Death, which daemons are immune to...

actually not really... Sadly their force weapons go around Daemons ID protection, as for every wound Daemons have to make a leadership test or be removed from the game. It doesnt happen often, but it still possible.

GKs hurt, but they arent unbeatable. Your targets are simple. First off its any Psyflemen, secondly its the next longest range target (so Razorbacks, then men on foot). You dont play them any different then any other army. De-Mech them and make them walk across. Be careful of where you assault, as stuff like Incubi can be wrecked by their I6 power weapons. Wyches are also hurt by being wounded on 2s after hammerhand. Your basic job is to shoot them to death, and then maybe assault small squads.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Tue Apr 17 2012, 15:28

Shadows Revenge wrote:
GKs hurt, but they arent unbeatable. Your targets are simple. First off its any Psyflemen, secondly its the next longest range target (so Razorbacks, then men on foot). You dont play them any different then any other army. De-Mech them and make them walk across. Be careful of where you assault, as stuff like Incubi can be wrecked by their I6 power weapons. Wyches are also hurt by being wounded on 2s after hammerhand. Your basic job is to shoot them to death, and then maybe assault small squads.

100% agree with this
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Tue Apr 17 2012, 16:04

Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
Don't throw Incubi at them unless a) they have grenades so keep their I or b) you are assaulting a unit that is already locked in combat from a previous turn.
Doesnt help, since Incubi are I5 and GK are I6, however smart way you are assaulting they gonna hit first...
wounding on 2+/3+ and ignoring armor and FnP.

Hence the next line was "And finally, never ever ever assault GK with Halberds unless you have Furious Charge", which would give you I6 with the Incubi.

Urien Rakarth wrote:
Easier said than done with the Land Raider. I've had several games where I've played against one, fired every lance I've had at it for 3 or more turns and barely scratched the paint let alone blown the thing up. I am firmly of the opinion that lances take out transports only. Big tanks like that you are probably better off with Haywires as you can't stunlock the damn things as they are Space Marines and have the stupid Machine Spirit which negates the only real viable tactic we have against AV14.

The tactic we have against Av14 is that the expensive box becomes Av12. Any LR fielded against us is a waste of points. 2 Psyflemen would be far more effective and harder to kill. If you see a LR, the first thought should be working out what part of their army they've had to compromise to fit it in, and then exploit it.

Shadows Revenge wrote:
Sami wrote:
Amusingly, one of the best units to assault Grey Knights with are (certain) Khorne daemons, which is surprising considering the purpose of GK. They are also immune to the effects of force weapons, as force weapons (when activated) inflict Instant Death, which daemons are immune to...

actually not really... Sadly their force weapons go around Daemons ID protection, as for every wound Daemons have to make a leadership test or be removed from the game. It doesnt happen often, but it still possible.

The test is for unsaved wounds. On Daemon models with 1 wound this doesn't matter, as if they failed the invul they would be removed anyway. That, and it's a leadership test, and virtually every Daemon has Ld10 (i.e. all but Fateweaver, who has 9). They will pass the test 91% of the time, and this only applies to multi-wound models.

As for Khornate daemons, nothing normal GK have (Dark Excommunication is the only power which can strip it) can ignore "Blessing of the Blood God" which grants a 2+ invulnerable save against wounds called by psychic powers or force weapons. Bloodthirsters (for 5pt), Khorne Heralds (same), Flesh Hounds (free) all become harder to kill when being hit by Grey Knights in close combat.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Tue Apr 17 2012, 18:24

Shadows Revenge wrote:
Sami wrote:
Amusingly, one of the best units to assault Grey Knights with are (certain) Khorne daemons, which is surprising considering the purpose of GK. They are also immune to the effects of force weapons, as force weapons (when activated) inflict Instant Death, which daemons are immune to...

actually not really... Sadly their force weapons go around Daemons ID protection, as for every wound Daemons have to make a leadership test or be removed from the game. It doesnt happen often, but it still possible.

GKs hurt, but they arent unbeatable. Your targets are simple. First off its any Psyflemen, secondly its the next longest range target (so Razorbacks, then men on foot). You dont play them any different then any other army. De-Mech them and make them walk across. Be careful of where you assault, as stuff like Incubi can be wrecked by their I6 power weapons. Wyches are also hurt by being wounded on 2s after hammerhand. Your basic job is to shoot them to death, and then maybe assault small squads.

Khorne Daemons normally come with Blessing of the Blood God, which gives them 2+ ward vs. Force Weapons. GK, being an army with all Force Weapons, gets lol'd on by something like Skulltaker (vs. Paladins especially).

I agree with your second point about GK. If you kill all his long-ranged firepower, his retaliation vs. you will be severely limited. Everyone in GK shoots my army at 18" because I take NS on all my units. Force them out of cover by loading them up with wounds and things get very frustrating for the GK player.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Tue Apr 17 2012, 18:33

Problem with this is that lances suck at killing psyflemen , or even suppressing them .... remember that it's possible to give them 3+ cover quite easily, DE dont have enough long ranged lances to reliably do jack to them, to get enough lances in range means blasters (ie short range) which means getting shot apart hideously by psy spam in retaliation .

also mounted GK squads have an effective 39 inch range with psycannons, move 12, get out 2" + base = 1" plus 24" range , 4 shots is more than enough to almost guarantee a deead DE vehicle.

you cant get away and at best night shields will buy you a turn ....

And a GK player that know about the wych interception will prob just bubble wrap the dreads or stick something infront in can shoot over and gain cover from but blocks your assault

Incubi are useless vs GK it's not even worth getting them out of the box, how are you planning on getting them 2 pain points ? the game will be over before that happens.

You cant out shoot them and you cant out fight them , you cant even really out maneuver them either , a solid GK balanced competitive list in the hands of someone vaguely competent has all the advantages from the outset.

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Wed Apr 18 2012, 02:05

Thats what I was saying.I dont really get the fact that there is no real down side to these guys.My buddy always say "Well they have a low model count,they are expensive for what you get.I have to make test for all my abilitys......By the why he likes terms withe the lib.So he can take Quick silver to get that ten inish.Halberds heavy..I know its a big learning curve.Its just said when a SM army Swings harder faster and better then are best cc Wychs.Hammerhands make them stronger and stronger.

I dont know.I agree thow that yes my tactics are very last codex.Yes I know the Dark Eldar have changed and I tryinging to relearn them.So thank you for all the help.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Wed Apr 18 2012, 02:12

The low model count thing is total rubbish , GK can run as many models as any other book, more if you include henchmen into the equation.

And the next person that says GK is a short ranged army gets an internet slap, lol

Taking tests for his abilities ? what on ld 9-10 ? poor baby, DE have jack diddly psy defense so just get to take it all in the face , quicksilver is pointless if already running halberds ?

if they did not ignore stun/shaken and could not so literally spam the best guns in the game for killing DE vehicles, (multiple high str shots with good range)

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Wed Apr 18 2012, 05:29

Bear in mind, point for point, incubi are better than every GK in PA and TDA with the exception of purifiers or paladins with halberds. Strikes, interceptors and normal terms get beaten even with halberds point for point

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Wed Apr 18 2012, 08:28

If any of you will try to kill GK in Close Combat - only 2 units can do this Helions and Beastmasters.
Preferably Helions with 2 PT, at least they will have the benefit of i7. Both units can soak a Shooting up to a some degree.3+ FnP and some wound allocation. Helions became from something mediocre to something medioce that wont be shred in first round of assault unlike all other options.

They can eat Strike Squads easily, not so purifiers, but they have chance with them as well.

Its all becoming more grim and grim in my parts, its not just 3 Psyflmens, its 4 Psyflemens and purifier spam ).
Hell if knew what to do with this )

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Wed Apr 18 2012, 08:46

Say "good game douche" and find someone with an interesting list to play instead ?

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Wed Apr 18 2012, 14:51

Massaen wrote:
Bear in mind, point for point, incubi are better than every GK in PA and TDA with the exception of purifiers or paladins with halberds. Strikes, interceptors and normal terms get beaten even with halberds point for point

well, lets see. The normal Setup I see for a regular strike squad is TH Sargie, Psycannon, 3 Hailberds (personally I dont like this, but we will go with it) So 5 Incubi charge these 5 GKs and they sucessfully hammerhand. They kill 1.249 Incubi (3*.5*.883=1.249) So lets say 1~2 for roundness sake. So the 4~3 Incubi strike back, killing 4~3 marines (12*.666*.5=3.996 or 9*.666*.5=2.997) So for 4 Incubi all thats left is probably the TH Sargie, which strikes back with .83 Kills (2*.5*.833=.833) or if both him and the psycannon lives, then you are looking at his kills plus another .138 from him, which equates to another Incubi total.

So in total we have lost 2~3 Incubi, and they have lost 3~4. Not to bad for a unit that costs just as much base, and they took upgrades Very Happy

As for purifiers why arent wyches good against them? Considering their cleansing flame we get both our 4++ and FNP against, and if they do that they arent hammerhanding us and wounding on 2s. So that means those wyches will bury them in attacks. Considering we are losing 1.25 to cleansing flame, and then .999 if the 3 without psycannons have hailberds, So those 7 wyches left will hit for .999 Marines, while the Aggie kills another 1. So they pretty much just broke even, even with their super duper power (not counting our drugs and any wych weapons that are in the squad)

@Azdrubael What Ive found to work wonders against GK Dreads is haywire wyches. If you take a basic 7 man squad with a shardnet and haywires, they can by T2 tie up the dread for almost the entire game. Sure they can bubblewrap them like Sorrowshard has pointed out, but in doing that they leave some of their psycannons on babysitting duty, which means less incoming fire onto your planes. That threat alone allows you alittle more movement freedom, and if the oppotunity arises, take it and watch him cry as his main source of AT gets drowned in grenades
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Wed Apr 18 2012, 15:03

I have run most of the incubi numbers and can confirm that point for point, its just purfiers with halberds they loose hard too...

The loose to the pallies due to the fact nothing dies quickly enough - not due to lack of wounds

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Wed Apr 18 2012, 15:16

I really don't think Incubi have a place VS GK, though having said that every time I play crons they utterly kick ass...

you wont be first turn haywire charging psyflemen, not if you opponent has two braincells to rub together, they WILL shoot down the raider, they WILL cripple the wyches with shooting and or tie them in CC to buy more shooting from the psyflemen, psyflemen simply delete DE vehicles, if he can even buy a second turn of his 3 (or more) psyflemen shooting it's highly likely you will be six + vehicles down just from them.

Not to mention the inevitable deluge of psycannon shots.....


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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Wed Apr 18 2012, 15:37

@Sorrowshard, i have always found the games challenging but have beaten a purifier spam force (featuring drazhar no less in the list)

You paint a picture that is unrealistic to me - terrain has a massive impact for starters

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Wed Apr 18 2012, 16:05

not really , only if you use alot of BLOS terrain, tlos makes it very hard to hide anything properly , GK simply don't really care if you have cover or not as they roll enough dice to more often than not get rid of you regardless, especially if they prioritize targets, like a raider full of haywire wyches on the way to a psy dread ?

I guess Drahz could kinda work against five man purifyer squads ? not convinced though, if even one survives his attacks you are looking at fairly certain damage ?

I just sat here and rolled a whole bunch of psyflemen vs flat-out/cover raider sets, 8 out of ten attempts resulted in a dead raider ? I think the numbers tend to support my assertions.

FYI, we do play with at least one or two pieces of BLOS terrain as GW suggests, always some roughly in the middle of table.

I guess this must somehow boil down to area differences, though my situation is indicative of the UK tourney scene...

I do beat GK , but it's usually because the guy playing them relies on them being uber good/auto win rather than having good 'game' someone who knows waht they are about is prob going to beat me and I'm known around here for being very difficult to beat with any other army.


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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Wed Apr 18 2012, 16:19

Azdrubael wrote:
If any of you will try to kill GK in Close Combat - only 2 units can do this Helions and Beastmasters.
Preferably Helions with 2 PT, at least they will have the benefit of i7. Both units can soak a Shooting up to a some degree.3+ FnP and some wound allocation. Helions became from something mediocre to something medioce that wont be shred in first round of assault unlike all other options.

They can eat Strike Squads easily, not so purifiers, but they have chance with them as well.

Its all becoming more grim and grim in my parts, its not just 3 Psyflmens, its 4 Psyflemens and purifier spam ).
Hell if knew what to do with this )

Wyches can reach I7 with FC too... and so can a lot of our units. If you want to compare Pain Tokens, Incubi can put out a lot more power weapon wounds than any other unit.

But in all honesty, if you guys are looking to beat Halberds in CC, you should probably take on another strategy.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Wed Apr 18 2012, 17:51

Quote :
Wyches can reach I7 with FC too...
Wyches cant soak ranged damage and are generally less usefull then Helion blob. They also rely on a raider against an army which is created to erase our raiders.
Unlike other units there is no way of getting 2 pain tokens as easy as with Baron and Helions.


Quote :
But in all honesty, if you guys are looking to beat Halberds in CC
I dont looking, i already saw it succeded.


Last edited by Azdrubael on Wed Apr 18 2012, 17:55; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Wed Apr 18 2012, 17:54

Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
Wyches can reach I7 with FC too...
Wyches cant soak ranged damage and are generally less usefull then Helion blob. They also rely on a raider against an army which is created to erase our raiders.


Quote :
But in all honesty, if you guys are looking to beat Halberds in CC
I dont looking, i already saw it succeded.

OK, then your previous post is confusing Razz
It sounded like you're saying only those units can reach I7, which isn't true.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Wed Apr 18 2012, 17:57

It is true, in a way. I7 is only meaningfull if you start with it, not if you gain it in the middle of the match.

You dont start wyches with 2 Haemies, nor you will do same things with Archon and Incubi, thats simply cost ineffective.

Only Helions realistically can start with 2 PT right away.
And only they can maximise Power from Pain to its full potential, being able to do FC every our turn, have a good cover save with FnP and be resilient fearless troops.

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