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 When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?

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stapebren7502
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PostSubject: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Mon Feb 20 2012, 05:39

First Things First

This is my first post,so here goes.I took a long break from 40k.This was my first game back.My buddy was playing GK.Heavy HQ squad.Term and Libraian.2 more term squads.2 reg troop squad in Razor Backs.Dread 2 twin aoutocannon.Landraider redemer.

I had Vec with Incubi squad raider
3 Wych sqauds in Raider with Haemonculus
5 Incubi in Venom
3 jet bikes
3 Ravengers

Long story short He out shot me,hit harder in CC and didnt fail to many saves...when did we loose are close combat crown..
Shocked It seemed to be over when I got into CC

Some one give me advise.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Mon Feb 20 2012, 06:51

We took a hit to our close combat capability with the new Codex when GW decided we shouldn't be one of the best at both shooting and assault. We're now slightly above average in assault and got even better at shooting and slightly better at speed and survivability.

His army was okay, but if you'd been using more of our potent shooting you could have rolled it pretty well I suspect. Especially with GK Terms (which I'm guessing were Pallies?) Those things need to be killed via big honkin' handfuls of dice while being kited, and our shooting does that best.

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Mon Feb 20 2012, 10:43

To clarify, we still are very good at combat... but Purifiers with halberds are just silly...

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Mon Feb 20 2012, 12:40

To answer your question of when did Grey Knights get better at CC than us, it was at exactly the moment they gave Mat Ward the book to write. An entire army with 3+ or 2+ saves and everything has a power weapon..... good call. Even before you chuck in some of the most ridiculous wargear ever created.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Mon Feb 20 2012, 13:31

When they decided that longer stick called Halberd give +2 bonus to initiative bringing them on par with us, who suppose to pay for extra iniative with complete lack of armor, drugs and lightness of body.

They even change their background, so Grey Knights now hunt their brother marines who actually saw long sticks in battle. Such a grand secret must be protected, because you know only Gray Knights allowed *long sticks*, you know they need them to hunt normal marines who learn sectrets about long sticks...so they strike like fastest race in the universe, strike those who knows the secret of long sticks...

Clearly such a grand military secret is an utmost military treasure of the Imperium...

Just feed them shattershard and enough lance shots, they have worst invul then Hammenators.
And take Wyches instead of Incubi, sadly thats just exactly GK that changed Incubi from viable unit to a situational.
They are now not a part of all-comers list.

And judging by your list maybe little less CC and little more Lances, Blasterborns etc..
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Mon Feb 20 2012, 15:50

Ouch. Yeah, not the best return to the hobby in facing the games most controversial dex. I used controversial to avoid saying broken. Oh. oops.

Most people that dont run them can't stand them. It just wasnt a well thought out dex. But GK bashing aside (which is morbidly fun by the way) they can be beaten.

As said above, volume of shots and hits. Vect and the incubi are maybe not the best tools to play them due to the amount of inv saves they can pull. They also have a ridiculous amount of twin linked str 8 so raiders go down quickly. Trueborn with 4 blasters should be directed at any dreads.

Wyches still get the dodge in combat, but need a drug boost. So Dukes buff helps there (plus he is cheap)


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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Mon Feb 20 2012, 17:07

@Massaen wrote:
To clarify, we still are very good at combat... but Purifiers with halberds are just silly...
I never said we were bad - I just said we weren't as good as we once were.

There might be an interesting possibility of pitting old vs. new here...

@Azdrubael wrote:
They even change their background, so Grey Knights now hunt their brother marines who actually saw long sticks in battle. Such a grand secret must be protected, because you know only Gray Knights allowed *long sticks*, you know they need them to hunt normal marines who learn sectrets about long sticks...so they strike like fastest race in the universe, strike those who knows the secret of long sticks...
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They developed long sticks prior to the dark age of technology where the capability for the Imperium of Man to make long sticks was greatest. The earliest examples are apocryphal records showing that the Custodian Guard used long sticks in battle. Now, only a few STCs secreted on Mars and guarded in the ancient vaults of the Mechanicum can create long sticks - they are treasured relics of the Chapter and the battle history and honor of each long stick is well recoded within dusty tomes of the Administorium. Few Chapters outside of the First Founding have more than three long sticks in their armory.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Mon Feb 20 2012, 17:38

I think it may be daily dose of Sisters blood... like men's "this day of the month".

Everyday. Bloody Vengeance Day.


[on offense intended, unless You are Matthew Ward]


And no, I'm not joking. Ward screwed Orcs and Goblins because fluff say so. "Fixed" War of the Ring because "good guys won in book". And totally PG'ed BA and GK because they are Marines and Marines kick bottom parts of anything that live.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Tue Feb 21 2012, 08:31

I had a stonking Apocolypse game over the weekend, and of course the beards turned out with GK's a-hoi-hoi. As it was a Calth related game due to Abnett's release of 'Know no Fear' i was looking forward to a bit of fun with my Ultra's army (i like them, i make no bones, i love that Helenic/Roman look of a very well painted Ultra's army, and with the forgeworld upgrade a smurfs army can look superb!)

Although both Ward dex's, i just couldn't believe the amount of power creep that GW corporate have let him get away with; win/lose or draw i almost always have a good bit of fun gaming .... Apart from this time. Levitas was almost subtle. I won't be; Broken, broken, broken.

I will be looking for ways of utterly destroying the silvery menace from any and all TT's across the south of Britain!
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Tue Feb 21 2012, 09:49

If someone remembers times of the end of 4th edition there was recently updated Eldar codex and Harlequines in Falcons raped positively everything, consoldating from Combat Into Combat.

When 5th hit, achetype was naturally dead.

Maybe that will be the case with Grey Knigts..maybe they will become weaker in CC, or maybe we will become stronger. If Leakbook have any merit our high and mighty WS will at last have a meaning. Hitting on 2+ and all that.



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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Tue Feb 21 2012, 15:49

their assault capacity is only decent at best. You still have to remember the pricetag they are paying for those power weapons (and they dont even get an extra attack for two CCW) charging grey knights his hilarious since you just watch statistics work their magic as they flounder most of their attacks.

What really ticks me off is their shooting potential. first off they are all walking around with weapons that before you had to pay 40 pts a model to field in mass (Terms). Then 5 points for an extra point of strength army wide for their shooting is stupid. Sure, S4 to S5 isnt that bad in the grand scheme of things, but when you go from S7 to S8, or S6 to S7 with rending... thats when things get bad. On top of that they have set new precendents in established rules (like being able to make Tank's score, as well as add the bonus strength before the multiplier) just keeps making it worse and worse.

I will say that GW was absolutely brilliant when releasing these guys though. I cant remember a bigger bandwagon jump ever, and it was relatively cheap to build an effective army, meaning even the most frugile had little to gripe about. That being said who knows what impact it will have on the community long term, but Im sure them plus the re-release of dark eldar really help them make that huge profit they made last quarter.

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Tue Feb 21 2012, 18:13

In my neck of the woods we had multiple GK players sell their armies. It got so bad that they either felt bad beating players or got tired of the 'broken' comments and generally being the bad guy in the store. I know true power gamers and ard boy vets wouldn't be put off and enjoy Wards unholy creation, but for most decent gamers they just decided it wasn't a fun army and moved on.

I totally agree, GW did a great job in wheeling them out. But man, they ruined the game for me for a few months.

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Tue Feb 21 2012, 18:44

IG was brilliant. Lots of excellent/cheap tanks, lots of excellent/way-too-cheap infantry, lots of possible builds via LEGO-like Infantry Platoons and lots of models that share same parts.

GK are just shameless plug. I think BA were better for them.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Tue Feb 21 2012, 20:30

@Azdrubael wrote:
... They even change their background, so Grey Knights now hunt their brother marines who actually saw long sticks in battle. Such a grand secret must be protected, because you know only Gray Knights allowed *long sticks*, you know they need them to hunt normal marines who learn sectrets about long sticks...so they strike like fastest race in the universe, strike those who knows the secret of long sticks...

Clearly such a grand military secret is an utmost military treasure of the Imperium...

I spit tea all over my laptop on that one, thanks for the laugh!

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Wed Feb 22 2012, 00:11

I would write something eloquent and meaningful , but ultimately I completely agree with the OP, to me playing DE VS GK I got the distinct impression GK were written to erase DE, not deamons.

This thread repeats itself on a thousand threads on a thousand forums, anyone without the GK dex asks themselves these kinds of questions every time they make rough comparisons between stuff in the gk dex

Dark lance ? we got psycannons

Heamo arcane warger ? check out our librarians uber repeto shatter shard and stealth field

light skimmers army wide? psyflemen ...

Incubi ? Purifiers

No AP1 ? Fortitude

Whats worse is that they have answers like these for everything in every other book and they are universally underpointed , head scratching continues.

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Wed Feb 22 2012, 08:04

They are well undercosted. Also for a time some GK players were saying that a 5 point falchion upgrade gave them +2 attacks - +1 for the extra weapon, +1 for the weapons 'ability'. Because +2 force weapon attacks for 5pts isn't broken... even in a GK codex. Shows that when you give an inch some people will take a mile.

I think the solution is mass cannon spam as the volume of shots should take them down. The fact that Paladins can also get an apothecary (the only frigging unit to get one in game..) and have 2 wounds and have different weapons is very stupid. I envisage that in 6E you will have to endevour to remove whole models where possible meaning that the draigowing cheese will get a subtle nerf
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Wed Feb 22 2012, 08:42

Draigowing is fortunately less dangerous to us then normal psy-cannon spam and more popular among GK players cause its cheap and fast to collect.

I dont really know what more to advice, in this edition thats a clear counter-match up for us.
Crap, demons have more chances then us against them.I recently read battle-rep from ETC 2011 where our demon player destroyed top-defender of german team who played Grey Knights.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Thu Feb 23 2012, 16:05

@Phototoxin wrote:
I think the solution is mass cannon spam as the volume of shots should take them down. The fact that Paladins can also get an apothecary (the only frigging unit to get one in game..) and have 2 wounds and have different weapons is very stupid. I envisage that in 6E you will have to endevour to remove whole models where possible meaning that the draigowing cheese will get a subtle nerf

completely not true. Have you played the FAQ DA yet??? 215 pts for 5 man TH/SH Termies, which is alittle over C:SM cost, but they can also get a tyhoon missle launcher... and an Apothecary... and a Banner that gives them +1 attack at all times... To up that if you play dualwing... well you have a bike squad with an Apothecary and +1 attack Banner as well!!!... Man Marines get all the cool toys Razz
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Thu Feb 23 2012, 17:05

I understand both camp's arguments on this topic. If I may put in my two cents worth.

Grey Knight Strike Squads get power weapons. Cool. They're tactical marines with spooky mind powers, a gun with more dakka, and power weapons. But throw wyches at them? They're still tactical marines in close combat. Yes, we don't get FNP against their shiny toothpicks. We get more attacks that (with the exception of those long pointy sticks) go first. And we get combat drugs! Not to mention our inv. save. And agonizers. And...and...more wyches for the points of a Grey Knight Strike Squad.

Yes, Purifiers are just silly. So are Paladins. But, everything they have, we have a potential counter for. Some units might not be that great to take against them (cough...cough...Incubi), but I really don't feel that Grey Knights are the be all to end all against our humble codex.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Thu Feb 23 2012, 17:55

In the hands of a neophyte player against a skilled opponent they are not nearly so scary. However, put them in the hands of a good player and they become very nasty.

Everyones got force weapons, so no FNP (DE and BA)

The majority of their combat squad will strike at I6 thanks to halberds, but instead of striking at I6 like a feeble space elf, they strike at s5 or better. With force weapons. And just for giggles theres the s10 thunderhammers in there. All thanks to Hammerhand.

A typical draigowing will have 5 paladins+ draigo. With current wound allocation shennanigans you can take 7 wounds before you have to lose a model. Its the rock of all rocks.

Im sure it was a massive success for GW. It was a very cheap army to start up and very powerful.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Thu Feb 23 2012, 18:13

Yeah and wyches fail on purifiers, cleansing flame is utterely stupid, then Its I6 halberds that nerf fnp and wound on two's, you cant outshoot GK your vehicles cant survive them and you got nothing that can fight them in cc ?

oh, and fotitude makes lances even crapper than they already are at their price point.

Honestly a proper GK army run by someone with half a brain will eat you, people I know who could never ever beat me with any other army have managed to do so wirh Gk.

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Fri Feb 24 2012, 20:07

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
their assault capacity is only decent at best. You still have to remember the pricetag they are paying for those power weapons (and they dont even get an extra attack for two CCW)



1 Grey Knight in a strike squad, some some regular dork trooper, is 20 points with no bling. 20 points buys you marine statline, stormbolter (so they can doubletap and still charge) and a forceweapon(not just a power weapon, but a force weapon that can ID any multi wound models you may have). That right there is enough to keep most people's melee centric IC's out of combat with them. Oh and they are psychers that can either give everyone +1 str or a bubble of automatic deep strike mishaps.

1 vanilla marine with marine statline, a bolter and bolt pistol, is 16 points.....4 points gets you stormbolter, force weapon, +1str from hammerhand, and the option for tons of other upgrades.

Like I said before, the codex is out of whack. In the hands of a good player you wont have a chance.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Fri Feb 24 2012, 20:24

[quote="jb7090"]
@Shadows Revenge wrote:
Like I said before, the codex is out of whack. In the hands of a good player you wont have a chance.
Not entirely true unless you just mean the specific DE/GK matchup - and even then it's not entirely true unless you're building to face each other.

I legitly believe that if I and a GK player as good at GK as I am at DE were scheduled to play each other and knew what the other one was bringing that I would have a win percentage of 10% or less - because GKs built to fight DE eat DE face.

The upside is that GK build is...not so good versus multiple other armies out there right now - and the potent tourney GK build is not an auto-win vs. DE.

The Codex is bad, and is pointedly bad for DE, but it's not absolute dark skies, tearing clothes, and gnashing of teeth bad. It's just 'what were they thinking' bad.

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Tue Feb 28 2012, 11:58

Grey knights only suffer from one weakness, and that is simply if they lose a man, they have lost a considerable part of their force. I still stand by that the best way to deal with them is to team a wych and warrior squad together for each squad you want to assault. Hit them with enough dakka from the warriors to cause a few to fall then rush the wyches in. Have to win by having more attacks then them and hoping you can win the combat. Or just draw them into the open and bombard them with venom/trueborn spam, that causes them to fall like flys.

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   Tue Feb 28 2012, 14:53

Interesting article from latest australian tournament, 3++ con.
Article is about Grey Knights against Dark Eldar and how they fared.
Surprising stastic =)

http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/02/3-con-statistics-deeper-look-at-dark.html#more

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