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 Tell Them My Minions...Tell Them I Hate Them

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thetyrant
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PostSubject: Tell Them My Minions...Tell Them I Hate Them   Thu Feb 16 2012, 16:50

The 40k universe is chalk full of fun, fascinating, and colorful races, and as such we 40k players have so many options on what armies to play, play against...and utterly despise.
You know what I'm talking about. That one codex that when it's spoken of your vision goes red, the bile at the back of your throat starts to come upward, and looking at the person that mentioned it makes you want to throw something heavy at their face. That one codex that the mere thought of even playing it would make you jump off of a very high place in protest. I'm curious to know what codex my fellow Archons despise more than anything else in the Nine worlds.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Tell Them My Minions...Tell Them I Hate Them   Thu Feb 16 2012, 17:15

Grey Knights.
For such an elite force, producing a codex for them seems a bit excessive. I realise you could argue the same about blood angels/space wolves etc, but at least they have successor chapters you can create, whereas grey knights don't have any that I'm aware of. Didn't mind seeing them as part of the daemonhunters codex though, as you could feasibly create an army from there without them.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Tell Them My Minions...Tell Them I Hate Them   Thu Feb 16 2012, 18:40

Grey Knights... just because of how utterly broken they are. As it stands when your in a tank heavy meta, and your tanks ignore 2/3rd of the damage chart (1/2 if its a psyflemen) and for not too much of a point increase... theres a problem with that.

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Tell Them My Minions...Tell Them I Hate Them   Thu Feb 16 2012, 19:45

Grey Knights easily, too many benefits for too little cost

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Tell Them My Minions...Tell Them I Hate Them   Thu Feb 16 2012, 20:23

Has anyone mentioned Grey Knights yet? Wink
Fluff and crunch, it's just pretty bad.

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Lady Malys
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PostSubject: Re: Tell Them My Minions...Tell Them I Hate Them   Thu Feb 16 2012, 20:29

My hatred .. ahh, my hatred is a diffuse yet powerful thing. It may not be the most common, but it has endured through edition after edition. I must delineate it carefully, both because it sadly cannot be tied to a specific Codex, and because I have no desire to scorch the minds of innocent Imperial bystanders.

It's Marines.

Not Marines as an idea, because I rather like that. Not the diverse and colourful Chapter histories, because some of the best 40k background has been written about them. Some of the best fluff is about Marines as noble warriors, exemplary soldiers, devoted sons of the Emperor, conflicted and flawed heroes in a Universe of war. No, it's this:

Whenever I go to my local GW store and discuss the rules of the game, I will be told by the staff member, usually a lovely person whom we'll call Steve (but whom I would just like to say may also be Stephanie), that these are the rules for Marines, and these are the ones for the other army, Tau, or Orks, or Eldar, or our beloved DE, and then there are these extra rules, for the Marines, that they get as well.

But one moment, I interject, politely, after all Steve is just doing his job and we're having a nice discussion. Surely if there are extra rules for Marines, then since our alien army has its own equivalent (we'll call them Troop Type X), and they would logically get extra rules too. Steve explains that yes, Troop Type X are indeed the Marines' equivalents but no, these are for Marines, because you know, they train and are devoted and fight so much and well, you know.

I politely point out that so does Troop Type X. And Y too, for that matter, and Z over in Camp Tau, beavering away for the Greater Good.

Steve says that yes that's true, but Marines spend so much of their time dedicated to the craft of war ...

So does Troop Type X, I say, nicely, there's no point in flaying Steve. Steve doesn't make policy, he just sells figures. And paint and brushes and all sorts of little bits of upselling, I know my retail and he knows his, we get along, Steve and I, even though we don't agree. Troop Type X, let's say Incubi, spend centuries perfecting the art of war. I point out that I don't object to special rules, every race has those, they're part of what makes the game more than an elaborate, expensive game of drafts, after all. Checkers, if you're from across the pond.

Then Steve, whom I sometimes sense agrees with me, secretly, when he's comiserating with his Tau army or whispering encouraging words to his no-longer-the-latest-Codex 'nids, tells me why Marines always get extra, no-cost, free, gratis rules on top of what everyone else gets.

It's because they're you know, Marines.


TL, DR: I hate the Humanocentric bias inherent in Marine rulesets. Very Happy I want all my aliens to get a level playing field, that doesn't seem like much to ask - not just my favourites, but everyone Smile

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jb7090
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PostSubject: Re: Tell Them My Minions...Tell Them I Hate Them   Thu Feb 16 2012, 21:03

Grey Knights. Without a doubt.

Edit - I hate them for all the reasons that everyone else have posted, as well as some specific ones. It's a GOOD codex, thats the problem. Its easy to pick up and has the same basic rules as other SM books but it's got all these little perks that make it just that much better than everyone else. Everyone has force weapons, access to I6 force weapons, cleansing flame, psy bolt ammo, psy cannons, storm bolters (so they can double tap and then assault where normal marines have to use bolt pistols), fortitude, rad grenades(hello T2), psychotroke grenades, brain mines, 3+ cover save storm ravens etc etc etc.

If you try to our shoot them, you will lose. If you try to CC them they will laugh. Advocates say they "die like marines" but if you run the numbers you see they actually dont because of all the force weapons and I6 halberds and cleansing flame.

I hate to say this, and please dont take it too seriously, but if youre winning constantly against your local GK players its not because of your skill and generalship level its because they arent that good. In the hands of a novice player the army is good, but has flaws. In the hands of a good player its not a game I enjoy playing.

Heres a list a buddy of mine recently tried out:
Coteaz
(5) Purifiers, 2x Psycannon, 1x Hammer
Razorback, TL Asscan, Psybolt ammo, searchlight

(5) Purifiers, 2x Psycannon, 1x Hammer
Razorback, TL Asscan, Psybolt ammo

(5) Purifiers, 2x Psycannon, 1x Hammer
Razorback, TL Asscan, Psybolt ammo

(3) Warrior Henchmen + 1x Psyker
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo, searchlight

(3) Warrior Henchmen
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo, searchlight

(3) Warrior Henchmen
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo

(3) Warrior Henchmen 12
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo

(3) Warrior Henchmen 12
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo

(3) Warrior Henchmen 12
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo

(5) Purgation squad, 2x Psycannon
Razorback, TL Asscan, Psybolt ammo

(5) Purgation squad, 2x Psycannon
Razorback, TL Asscan, Psybolt ammo

(5) Purgation squad, 2x Psycannon
Razorback, TL Asscan, Psybolt ammo

= 1850

So:

30 expendable PA marines.

19 paper-thin objective camper GEQ's.

12 Psycannons on foot troops.

6 mobile TL Psycannons.

6 mobile long ranged torrent/light AT guns.

Everything can hurt tanks.

Everything can hurt infantry.

48 rending str7 shots @ 24" range, or 24 shots @ 30" range.

36 str4 shots @ 24"/30" range.

24 TL rending str7 shots @ 30" range.

18 TL str6 shots @ 42" range.


Good luck getting across the board against that. Ive ran my duke deep strike list against it and kinda do ok, but its very sketchy.


Last edited by jb7090 on Thu Feb 16 2012, 23:54; edited 1 time in total
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Cailos
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PostSubject: Re: Tell Them My Minions...Tell Them I Hate Them   Thu Feb 16 2012, 21:48

If it wears Power Armour in the color of gray and are knightly about the way they are. Then I hate playing against them. But again I have only played them twice and won both times, its just the way the people that play them act that upsets me. Really just because you are playing Grey Knights doesn't mean you need to throw a fit or get moody if you lose. All of the people I have seen playing them in my local area get upset or "unnerved" if they lose with them. Some of them grumbling about how they were cheated or something. Really?
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SirTainly
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PostSubject: Re: Tell Them My Minions...Tell Them I Hate Them   Thu Feb 16 2012, 21:56

I'm such a nice guy.,..I don't hate anyone! Smile

And to be fair GK is only broken with certain builds, there's one guy at our club, who I've played a few times and it's always close.

Autocannon Dreadnoughts with the magic ammo though - that's broken.
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Phototoxin
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PostSubject: Re: Tell Them My Minions...Tell Them I Hate Them   Thu Feb 16 2012, 22:37

Space puppies and grey knights, not simply because they are overpowered but due to the bandwagoning involved. No one bought grey knights then suddenly half the people are playing them. In a way it's not their fault - easy to paint, cheap to build, extremely strong. I also like the fact that they are truely elite (dragowing?)
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Tell Them My Minions...Tell Them I Hate Them   Thu Feb 16 2012, 23:12

SirTainly wrote:
Autocannon Dreadnoughts with the magic ammo though - that's broken.
That wouldn't bug me except for the magic ability to ignore damage - because of that ability I had to change up my tourney army. Not because of tactics or a clever build, but I changed my army simply because of a built in ability.

Also, all the fluff about their Chapter Master - it makes me sad.
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Marquis Vaulkhere
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PostSubject: Re: Tell Them My Minions...Tell Them I Hate Them   Fri Feb 17 2012, 00:12

I have spent alot of money threw my teens trying to beat my Friends smurfs... I abhorrer marines. I learned how to handle them now but it was alot of waisted army's to get to my DE Smile

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thetyrant
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PostSubject: Re: Tell Them My Minions...Tell Them I Hate Them   Fri Feb 17 2012, 01:39

I must not be playing against good Grey Knight players.

I would say, my most hated army, and yet I even played them for a while, are the Space Puppies. I love the fluff, (they're space vikings with little to no regard for most of the Imperium's institutions), and I loved how Wolf Lords could be made to have some real character to them, almost like the previous edition Chaos Lords.
But, as Phototoxin said, it's the bandwagon. "Grey Hunters are Chaos Marines with counterattack, TSKNF, and whatever else Phil Kelly decided to throw on them? Wooo!"
Noone plays them for fluff. They play them for Grey Hunters and Long Fangs. AND THAT is why I truly hate the army I had loved.
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