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Keranas
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PostSubject: Shadow Ravens   Sun Feb 12 2012, 19:21

Thought these guys up today, what do you guys think?


Fast Attack: Shadow Raven

BS Front Side Rear Points
4 10 10 10 55
Unit Size: 1-3
Unit Type: Fast, Skimmer, Open-topped

Equipment
Turret Mounted Twin-Linked Splinter Cannon
Hull mounted Twin-Linked Splinter Rifle
Night Shields

Options:
May replace the Splinter Cannon with either:
  • Twin-linked Shredder Free
  • Twin-Linked Hay-wire Blaster 5pts
  • Twin-Linked Heat Lance 10pts
  • Twin-Linked Blaster 10pts
  • Twin-Linked Disintegrator Cannon 20pts
  • Twin-Linked Dark Lance 20pts

May upgrade the Twin-Linked Splinter Rifle to a Splinter Cannon for 10pts, or the entire squad may replace it with a Shock Prow for 5pts each

May take any of the following Vehicle Upgrades:
  • Chain-Snares 5pts
  • Envenomed Blades 5pts
  • Grisly Trophies 5pts
  • Torment Grenade Launchers 5pts

The entire unit may take Flicker Fields for 10pts each, and/or Retrofire Jets for 5pts each


This unit would be based on a Venom (and obviously without a Transport capacity)

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Last edited by Keranas on Mon Feb 13 2012, 13:47; edited 6 times in total
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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow Ravens   Sun Feb 12 2012, 19:34

I like it. Perhaps make them act as a squadron or remove the 0-1.

I think perhaps the weapon upgrades are too cheap, especially as they are twin linked, maybe add 10pts to the cost of them all.

Being based on the Venom wouldn't it make sense giving them flickers to start with? Or maybe go with the name and give them Night Shields..

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Saintspirit
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow Ravens   Sun Feb 12 2012, 19:46

Hmm... Basically, it's a DE Viper - I dunno, to me it feels a bit too similar... (of course, none of the eldar options re available so there is relatively much difference, but still)

But yeah, if it should be based on the venom I think too it should have night shields, that fits better with the name

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Keranas
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow Ravens   Sun Feb 12 2012, 20:11

Well, for Scourges the difference between a Splinter Cannon and a Darklance is 5 pts (10 for Cannon, 15 for Lance), while Warriors and Trueborn have a 15-point difference, so i dont think the difference should be any bigger than it already is (ok, MAYBE 5 points more for the "big" guns).
If you look at the Talos, it only pays 5 points to upgrade his TL SC for a TL Haywire, so why should it cost more here?
Was a bit conflicted on how much the upgrade to Blasters should cost, but thinking about it - compared to the Darklance, its half the range, so wouldnt half the points be reasonable (if i up the points of Darklances and Dissies to 20 pts)?
Yeah, might make them a squad, having them operate on their own might be a bit too powerful

EDIT: Oh, and yeah, i'll add in Night Shields standard for +10 pts

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PostSubject: Re: Shadow Ravens   Sun Feb 12 2012, 20:24

It's the fact that the weapons are twin-linked, that should really bump the price up a bit in my view. I can't see a reason why not to add a free twin linked splinter rifle, wouldnt harm anything in regards to the model, kit and aesthetics.

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Keranas
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow Ravens   Sun Feb 12 2012, 20:36

I see your point, but as i have them now, a Shadow Raven with TL Darklance/Dissies would cost 75 pts, only 30 pts less than a boat that has better front and side armour, and has 3 of each gun (though not TL), which is why im hesitant to increase the points even further.
As it is, for the same points as a Venom, im removing a TL Splinter Rifle, making the Splinter Cannon TL, changing a Flickerfield to Night Shields, and removing its 5-man transport capacity.
I honestly dont think 20 pts for TL Dissies/Darklances is too cheap - but im willing to discuss the cost of the Blaster option...

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PostSubject: Re: Shadow Ravens   Sun Feb 12 2012, 21:16

You could add the twin-linked splinter rifles and keep pts were they are, and add option +10pts to upgrade to splinter cannon. Was the absence of open-topped intentional or typo? The mention of turrent makes me think its intentional.

I would add ten points to base and make the flicker standard too, or make it so all or none have to take the upgrade. I could see issues with a squadron with only some models with flicker fields and/or night shields. How that interact with squadron could bring up some rule disputes.

They seem in between hornets and vypers to me, in concept and points effectiveness.

The eldar pay 25pts for a bright lance with the same stats, so 25pts for twin-linked would be good(5pts cheaper then wave serpent pays for bs3, but its considered overpriced). A better comparison would be to a 115point ravanger with night shield, so vs 75pts shadow raven its paying 20 points each for un-linked darklances, if extra armour and open-topped cancel out.

Why not add option for heatlance? Same price as blaster I think, since they are a little less vulnerable to assault then scourges or reavers the closer range is less of a disadvantage.
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Keranas
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow Ravens   Sun Feb 12 2012, 21:38

Nah, i fogot to add that they are open-topped. The reason i wrote that the weapons are turret-mounted is to clarify that they'd be mounted where the "original" SC on the Venom is now, and not underneath, or wing-mounted or whatever...
Good idea about adding that all Ravens must take the same vehicle upgrades, maybe even make them take the same weapons, i dunno.
And the Heatlance was, again, a brain-fart on my part, should propably be the same pts as the Blasters i guess.

The reason i left out the Splinter Rifles was because i wanted the Ravens to have 1 clear role - but ofc, i could add one for what, 5 pts? or just include it for free?

Oh, and thanks all for the fast feedback - i really appreciate it Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Shadow Ravens   Mon Feb 13 2012, 09:27

Only upgrades that would cause a problem if mixed are night shield(standard anyway), flicker field(becomes under-costed), and retrofire jets(don't work unless all take them). The eldar codex lets vypers take upgrades that don't match that could cause problems just as bad, so it isn't much of a issue, I guess. The rest of the upgrades in codex and weapons work fine if mixed. It would be silly to give 1/2 haywire and 1/2 splinter cannon, but would cause no more issues doing same with scourges, just not effective.

Rather then say all must take same list them

Any Shadow Raven may take any of the following
Torment grenade launcher..........5pts
Chain-snares...............................5pts
Grisly trophies.............................5pts
Envenomed blades......................5pts
The entire squadron may take flicker field for 10pts each and/or retrofire jets for 5pts each

I don't see any reason in rules or background the other upgrades could not be taken, and they give some extra conversion potential/inspiration.

The splinter rifles shouldn't add any pts, in old vdr would've been 1.5 pts, but most of the weapon load outs would be for targets the rifle can't hurt. You could have it say "may have under mounted twin-linked splinter rifles for 0pts or splinter cannon for +10pts". Then it could have no chin gun, twin rifles, or cannon.

The shredder could be long-barreled to give it 24" range and stay the same pts, since its worse then the splinter rifle, or it could be 2 twin-linked shredders instead of one.

A interesting option would be,"The entire squadron may take Shock prow for 10pts each if no under mounted weapon is taken." This would take some conversion to pull of, but would allow using them like over-sized reavers. With shredders, prow, and Chain-snares to go after infantry, or heatlance to ram then fire point blank.

Another possible upgrade, supersonic engines for 15pts to allow 36" flatout move.

Great unit concept, Keranas, and name fits in with other names in codex well. cheers



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Keranas
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow Ravens   Mon Feb 13 2012, 09:44

Wow, never though about giving them the option for Shock Prows instead of the belly-mounted weapons - might actually consider it Smile
And yeah, the Shredders might need a boost to make anyone consider using them, perhaps making it 2 TL Shredders for +5pts, instead of a single TL one for free.
Ill add the other vehicle upgrades in a minute, completely forgot that those might be useful (never use them myself, but others might want to Very Happy)

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abjectus
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow Ravens   Mon Feb 13 2012, 11:07

By the old vehicle design rules, twin-linked was 1.5 the cost of base weapon. So twin-linked splinter cannon would be 15pts and shredder 7.5pts. The long barrel upgrade added 50% points and range.

So, the points cost of (twin-linked splinter cannon)=(2*twin-linked shredder)=[twin-linked long-barrel shredder(24" range)] A different option would be make twin-linked shredder subtract 5pts when taken. The name of the twin-linked long-barreled shredder is a little long. The two twin-linked shredders for free is probably the best route. Only one can be fired unless moving less then 6", and when combined with the short range, most turns only one will still be firing.
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