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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Fri Feb 03 2012, 12:11

As some of you will be aware I run a very darklight heavy tournament list at 1750 points, it carries something like 31 darklight weapons.
Some of these are tied up in 4 Blaster/warrior squads that I mount in raiders. After yet another kicking from my mates mech IG list, I am seriously considering the validity of darklight as an AT weapon, especially the squad mentioned above.

For the 60 points it takes to get the blaster/warrior unit, you can get 5 haywire grenade wyches. They would still have the transport option, so which is the better AT unit.

Discuss.
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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Fri Feb 03 2012, 13:06

Do you give Haywire grenades to Trueborn?

About wyches - naked ones? Venom/Raider? No Agoniser/Blastpistol?

Darklight is indeed not completely valid AV option, im being constantly dissapointed in its performance.

Main disadvantage of haywire - is its damage done in Assault Phase. Meaning even if we pop tranport - those who are in there will be able to wipe said Wyches easily with shooting.

Next disadvantage is its dependend on speed of the target.Hiting on 6+ with just 5 grenades is not a good option. Even with 4+ i guess you should take a little more wyches. If you have IA Reaper - yes , you definately can use multilayered approach.

Third Disadvantage - warriors in raider/venom is still battle ready and scoring unit.Once you take Wyches - you will commit them and probably lose them regardless if they manage to destroy their target.One less scoring, one more KP.

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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Fri Feb 03 2012, 13:15

Also don't forget that with some bad rolls if you do kill the vehicle there is potential for the explosion to cripple or even wipe the squad.
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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Fri Feb 03 2012, 13:40

Haywire Wyches have one giant glaring flaw. Yes, you did just blow up that Land Raider. First, make tons of 6+ armor saves from the explosive debris, and second, get shot to pieces by whatever was sitting inside. If your wyches are still standing, whatever was in there now needs to charge them to shred the pitiful remains.

Haywires are situational for Wyches. They should not be your primary AT and a free kill point for the enemy.

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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Fri Feb 03 2012, 13:42

And at 60 points i am fine with that!

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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Fri Feb 03 2012, 14:51

As much as I hate spam lists with trueborn I can not say wyches with haywires is the solution. As Siticus has mentioned already I agree that wyches with haywires are not a major form of AT.

I do believe wyches to be the best form of "Troop" choice and they fulfill the assault element that I think every list should have but haywires are a "duality" measure that doesn't cost much and gives the wyches more flexibility to help a list out (versus AT) if it needs it.

And of course that doesn't include the dynamic of getting the wyches to the armor - that will cause other changes in your list as they all try to support each others goals. I got no problem with wyches taking on armor if that is the only viable option and as far as Dreadnaughts and walkers go I wouldn't hesitate a second to charge one but that is due to the fact that I also take nets and just love reducing a dread down to 1 attack - If I do not get a "6" to plant the grenade then all I have to worry about is the dreads 1 attack.

No, I believe the answer lies in units that can take heatlances - I would take a FA squad with two heatlances over an Elite slot with 4 blasters but I do not run meta spam lists and I dabble way too much with wwp lists so what do I know.

It will be interesting to see how this turns out for you.

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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Fri Feb 03 2012, 15:53

Thats a good start to the debate.

Bit of history as too how i got to this set up. Last year i ran a Baron/hellion list which had about 23 darklight weapons and while it was winning about 65-70% of it's tournament games it had one major flaw, it could not crack armour reliably. So I jigged the list and ended up with 31 darklight weapons, while still retaining 5 venoms and a Razorwing for AI. My troop slots are filled with 6 warrior/blaster units, 2 in venoms, 4 in raiders. But even this is not doing the job reliably. Hence the wych thoughts.

The disadvantages listed, are what initially turned me off using wyches in this particular list. IThe meta in tournaments here is very heavy mech so assault or AI is pretty much a secondary consideration, meaning wyches would only really be used for AT and a small bit of mopping up. This to me meant they were more or less suicide squads.
This is why I went for the warrior units. However what I am finding is that while I can hit plenty of targets, the rolls on the damage tables usually result in only stunned, shaken or occasionaly weapon destroyed results. This leads me to thinking that wych units following up in the next turn could reliably plant grenaeds and hopefully glance the vehicle to death. They are ofcourse still standing there waiting to get the crap shot out of them but at least the tank is gone. With that in mind I came up with the following list, the idea being that the wyches follow in after their raider has had a shot at the vehicle. If it's a transport and the contents are forced out then happy days we can assault them, if not then the wyches have to do it the hard way.

The list still has 27 darklight weapons in it but now has 4 squads of 7 wyches, 1 I have kitted out more to do a bit of AI as I've lost a venom and the razorwing. So 3 suicide squads at 94 points each is that better than the warrior blaster units. My belief is that it probably is. What do you think?

1750 Pts - Dark Eldar Roster - Dark Eldar X-Legion 2012

1 Archon @ 75 Pts
Blaster

4 Kabalite Trueborn @ 173 Pts
Blaster (x4)
1 Venom @ [65] Pts
Splinter Cannon (x2)

4 Kabalite Trueborn @ 173 Pts
Blaster (x4)
1 Venom @ [65] Pts
Splinter Cannon (x2)

4 Kabalite Trueborn @ 173 Pts
Blaster (x4)
1 Venom @ [65] Pts
Splinter Cannon (x2)

5 Kabalite Warriors @ 125 Pts
Blaster (x1)
1 Venom @ [65] Pts
Splinter Cannon (x2)

7 Wyches @ 164 Pts
Shardnet & Impaler (x1); Haywire Grenades
1 Raider @ [70] Pts
Flickerfield

7 Wyches @ 164 Pts
Shardnet & Impaler (x1); Haywire Grenades
1 Raider @ [70] Pts
Flickerfield

7 Wyches @ 164 Pts
Shardnet & Impaler (x1); Haywire Grenades
1 Raider @ [70] Pts
Flickerfield


6 Wyches @ 194 Pts
Razorflails (x1); Haywire Grenades
1 Hekatrix Splinter Pistol; Haywire Grenades; Plasma Grenades; Agoniser
1 Raider @ [70] Pts
Flickerfield

1 Ravager @ 115 Pts
Dark Lance (x3); Flickerfield

1 Ravager @ 115 Pts
Dark Lance (x3); Flickerfield

1 Ravager @ 115 Pts
Dark Lance (x3); Flickerfield

Total Roster Cost: 1750

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Fri Feb 03 2012, 16:11

Look solid.
Maybe you want to take Night Shields on Wych Group instead of Flickers?
As i understand it you need at least one turn when you do the shaking and immobilising thing, so next turn you will have auto-hits from haywires. You need to keep Wyches Raiders alive and not commited during that turn.

You will be able to hide them behind Ravagers anyway.
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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Fri Feb 03 2012, 18:49

Thats a very valid point, need to look at it closely. My immediate thought is that the wyches will be so close that n/s will make no difference.
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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Sat Feb 04 2012, 02:05

I've played a few games where I fielded 4 5 Wych Grenade squads and they went quite well. You're enforcing a really tough decision on your opponent when you boost up right onto his toes, as the TB and Rav's sit back......


I like them as AT, but you have to pick your targets carefully. Tanks and Dreadnoughts are generally the best targets. Transports are a bit contentious as you can charge it, but the guys inside will jump out and shoot you in the face. I usually shoot at transports with Rav/TB and zoom Wyches towards tanks/dreads.

If we compare 5 Warriors/Blaster with 5 Wyches/HWG - the blaster is 1 shot whereas the grenades, your rolling vaires dependant on the Tank's movement, also you will be glancing more than penning with HWG, which lessens the chance of explosions.......so your looking to blow weapons off until its wrecked.
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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Sat Feb 04 2012, 05:40

Blaster Warriors are a good unit, it's the Blaster trueborn that suck. 5 Blaster Trueborn in a venom costs as much as 10 warriors in a Raider. They don't have the firepower to reliably kill more than a few tanks each turn, and they can't even kill a tactical squad reliably without overwhelming backup firepower.

Wyches, however, fill a number of useful roles. They are scoring infantry with a mean, proven ability to tie up enemy units and pull them off of objectives. Haywire units can cripple tank walls. When teamed with an Archon or Succubus with an Agonizer, they are extremely vicious in CC against nearly everything and even threaten walkers. And they even get a little shooting in if you need it.

Instead of swapping out Blaster Warriors for Wyches, run a balanced list--I find that 3-4 Warriors in Venoms and 2 squads of 7-10 Wyches in raiders with Haywire can reliably win me lots of games. Further, those Wyches can do something that no other unit in the game can for you: tie up Dreadnoughts in close combat and win eventually, saving you untold damage from Psyrifles and lascannons. Mix up the remainder with your preferred ranged anti-tank options and do something to cover yourself against large hordes (a Razorwing can be golden here) and you'll have a winning list.
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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Sat Feb 04 2012, 07:48

HAZZAH!

Someone who agrees blasterborn are not all the interwebz makes them out to be!

I am thinking i might try 4x5 warriors and 2x6 wyches all in venoms later this year... i need to get back to painting!

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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Sat Feb 04 2012, 09:14

Blasterborn brings duality - killines of Venom and AV potentail of blasters. Sure you can take Raiders but youl start instantly suffer in AI department.

For the said list i aslo think it lacks a little in AI. If you drop Hekatrix you can take 7 Chain Snares , i know they arent exaclty popular and with reasons but i think they fit in nicely in the list. And they are surely more valuable then single agoniser.

If youl blow up transports with Wyches, and if said wyches survive exposion units inside will probably fire them, leaving empty raiders without attention , so they can later atack occupants of transports. Layered tactics, whatever enemy will achieve have an answer for that.

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Venoms arent Razorbacks ))) Only 5 Space for Cargo. Or driver will start shooting )
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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Sat Feb 04 2012, 11:35

@Azdrubael - yeah, typo!!

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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Sat Feb 04 2012, 13:47

Part of the reasoning with wyches, is that they will force the enemy to move the tank or transport to avoid auto hitting haywires in my turn, meaning they will be firing less at you. I believe an opponent will find 7 haywire wyches more of a threat to his tanks than a single blaster shot, I have yet to see anyone quake at the thought of a single blaster shot, it's simply to unreliable. It's only a 20% chance of penning AV12 whereas 7 auto hitting grenades, well goodbye vehicle.

The above list contains 4, 7 man wych squads and 1, 5 man warrior squad so it seems fairly balanced to me when you consider the trueborn. It may be slightly lacking in AI, but as I said earlier AI is a secondary consideration around these parts.

Blasterborn in venoms, I have found to be the most efficient method of dealing with armoured transports we have, I simply wont leave home without them.

So, for me the question is, are 6 x 5 warrior/blaster units better than 4 x 7 wych units and 1 warrior blaster unit, in the context of where the list will be used.
I don't think they are, because:

I need to destroy armour quickly and effectively, I think wyches are more reliable for this in the configuration I have listed than the single blaster shot.

I need to be able to deal with psyfleman dreads, and quite simply wyches are the best unit we have for this.

Wyches also provide an element of AI, by tag teaming 2 squads I could tarpit almost any enemy unit I wanted.

You don't need more than 2 scoring units (2 models), alive to win any standard mission, troops are almost completey expendable. Even with 5 objectives in a mission you only need to control 1 more than the enemy, contesting everything he is on and controlling 1 wins.

My aim in every mission is to wipeout the enemy, it is the most effective way of winning the game. Therefore the more killing power I have the better.

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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Sat Feb 04 2012, 15:57

Wow Kenny, that is a solid and brutal list! Let us know how it fares.

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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Sat Feb 04 2012, 16:19

my problem with wyches being used for AT is that you are looking at worse math than with blasters. Take this for example. A razorback moved 6" and shot its one weapon. Your turn 5 wyches (5 attacks) hit on 4+, so thats 5*.5= 2.5 hits. Then you have a 16% chance of failing or pening, and a 66% chance of glancing, so your looking at a 1.665 glances, .415 of those would be a pen, then you have to roll on the damage chart.

Compare to a single blaster shot at the same target. 1 shot has a 66% chance of a hit, and a 66% chance of a result (16% of a glace, 50% of a pen) so you are looking at a .443 result (1*.666*.666= .443) So mathhammer wise those 5 haywires have a better chance to glance, but the blaster has a better chance to get a pen.

And yes, I know of the darklight curse. It sucks royally, but all we have for most of your AT duty is darklight. I do strongly suggest including alternate forms though, like haywire blasters and heat lances, but I feel that replacing your entire core of troops with wyches just for the haywire effects is not the solution.

kenny3760 wrote:

I need to destroy armour quickly and effectively, I think wyches are more reliable for this in the configuration I have listed than the single blaster shot.

well lets see shall we Razz

Fact: All hits are against Rhino Chassis, no cover

6 blasters come out with 2.661 sucesses, .425 are glances and 2.236 are pens

Fact: Your wyches come out to 28 haywire attacks

Haywires against a imobile target comes out to 23.324 sucesses, 18.676 are glances and 4.648 are pens

Haywires against a target that has move up to 6" comes out to 11.662 sucesses, 9.338 are glances and 2.324 are pens

Haywires against a target that has moved over 6" comes out to 3.871 sucesses, 3.229 are glances and .642 are pens

so haywires are still the king of glances, even when the target has moved flat out. They even out pen the blasters when they auto-hit, but what do you expect when you auto hit. What supprised me was they out pen the blaster even with the 4+ to hit, which is pretty badass. Sadly though I still would prefer the range to sending wave after wave of my wyches to die just trying to stick a grenade, but this is good to keep in mind.

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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Sat Feb 04 2012, 17:10

Baby steps I guess, the list will have to do for now - the low sodium spam.

Try it out and see how your "meta" responds, try to give a good dose of exposure too - do not get discouraged/encouraged after one game. I think you will find the fog of war to be a little less predictable when you throw a new element into the mix.

Good luck and happy hunting!

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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Sat Feb 04 2012, 22:38

For me this has been pretty productive and thought provoking.
Thanks for the maths Shadows Revenge, it helps to see the numbers down on paper so to speak. The interesting thing for me is that against AV 12 and above the results for the haywires stay exactly the same but blasters will be slightly less effective as some pens will become glances.
I started out with the idea of just swapping units on a point for point basis, but I believe the 7 wych squad will build in the reliability that I am looking for.

Small steps indeed, but a major departure from last years list.
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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Mon Feb 06 2012, 05:13

you also have to put into consideration, 5 warriors w/ blaster is the same as 5 haywire wyches, so your haywires are alittle over if you want to compare their point value, that being said though comparing 1 blaster to 5 haywires, the haywires is probably come out on top (since rolling more dice increases your chances of a sucess)

its not bad in theory, but I dont know how effective its going to be. I would love to see your results after a few battles though

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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Mon Feb 06 2012, 13:26

Im willing to test that myself , with a little change.

We have a little more around in the way of infatry and FnP infantry.
So il drop One Wych and Troops Warrior and Archon and Take 2x5 Wracks and Haemy , all with Liquifiers.

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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Tue Feb 07 2012, 07:05

Going to give it a whirl against mech IG later this week.
Tournament due a week on Saturday
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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Thu Feb 09 2012, 16:28

I agree that Blasterborn are not the magic anti tank trick many people want them to be... And I love my large wych squads with haywire, but... The main reason I take blasterborn (and scourges with blasters) is to deal with the plethora of terminators on the table these days... My wyches just can't deal with the large terminator lists that are out there. Storm shields, wound allocation, FNP terminators are too common not to have something that can deal with them at range and splinter cannons just don't cut it. Multiple blasters are the way to do it! Blasters ignore FNP and will double out those peasky GK guys...
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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Fri Feb 10 2012, 00:25

Well tonights game was very interesting, Learnt a great deal from it.

The haywire wyches were a far more effective AT unit than the warrior units ever were. They destroyed 2 Hydra's, 4 chimeras, HQ command squad, troop command squad and another troop unit.
As expected they had issues when getting fired upon after wrecking/destroying transports as expected, but after the game we discussed what could be done to help them in this issue. It became crystal clear that the answer was FnP, solution to this, draft in 4 heami's as HQ's by losing the blaster archon and the final warrior/blaster/venom unit.

So, the list changes to accomodate the wyches and moves away from total darklight spam to some thing with a bit more of a mix.
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PostSubject: Re: Blaster Warriors or Haywire wyches   Fri Feb 10 2012, 01:20

Yup, FNP on the wyches is a fantastic choice, especially to keep them alive when hopping from tank to tank.

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