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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Worst Dark Eldar Choices.   Tue Jan 31 2012, 16:09

This is a direct copy and paste job from my reply on Warseer, based on a topic on the worst choices in 40k. Do you agree with me or have other ideas?

Original topic discussion: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?331749-Worst-40k-unit

SPECIAL CHARACTERS - Kheradruakh, The Decapitator. At first glance he doesn't look bad until you start reading... He's got a decent statline, S5, power weapon that instant deaths on a 6 and all the other perks that Mandrakes get, plus a free pain token. Then you realise he's not an independent character, can't share the pain and can't assault on the turn he appears. Derp.

HQ - Haemonculus Ancient. For 30 more points than a standard Haemonculus you get a smattering of stat bonuses, stat bonuses for a throw away character who is only in the army to play with pain token shenanigans and get a Liquifier shot off before he dies.

ELITES - There's some great choices in the Elites section. And then there are Mandrakes. They have a useful shooting attack, but only get it once they kill something. Sure, they get S4 and a 5++ but why not go with a 5 point cheaper, scoring Wych who simply does every better? I'm sure that one day, someone, somewhere will find a use for the Mandrakes. Just not yet.

TROOPS - This is a tough choice and one that can't be simply made. I get more kicks out of Wyches. They have access to the same dedicated transports, a 4++ in combat, higher initiative, combat drugs that can be buffed by the Duke and access to Haywire Grenades. Warriors are slightly cheaper and with access to special weapons, and a better armour save. I'm with the Wyches but I'm sure there is not right or wrong on this particular debate.

FAST ATTACK - Hellions. This is a discussion based on the choice of not taking a squad led by Baron Sathonyx. They aren't led by a decent combat character with free Phantasm Grenade Launcher, they don't have stealth, the ability to reroll dangerous terrain tests or reroll hit and run attempts. Most importantly they are no longer Troops. I'm not a massive fan of the FA choices and don't regularly use them but I see no sense in FA Hellions.

HEAVY SUPPORT - Cronos Parasite Engine. I really like the idea of the Cronos and love the model. The ability to move Pain Tokens around is good but by the first turn most DE players have given their units sufficient tokens. A Talos can do everything better in combat too. It's not awful, far from it, but in my view, the worst choice.

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PostSubject: Re: Worst Dark Eldar Choices.   Tue Jan 31 2012, 16:32

I agree with the HQ, Elite, Fast and heavy choices

On the troop front, i think Kabalites are better than wyches simply by virtue of cost and less reliance on adding a haemy to survive

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PostSubject: Re: Worst Dark Eldar Choices.   Tue Jan 31 2012, 16:40

HQ: Yup, Decap is a major Derp...

As for the Haemie Ancient... I see his place somewhat. His higher statline actually makes him somewhat surivable in combat against normal rank and file units, and personally I wouldnt mind getting him out and getting him stuck in with say wyches and the like, where as the regular Haemie would hide in his AV 10 flying death coffin. That being said 30 points is a steep price, but its a small price to pay if you want to stay fluffy and get a coven going Razz

Elites: Mandrakes... another Derp... Why couldnt Kelly get these guys right??? It isnt hard persay... if they had rending I could see their usefulness maybe (but then again its stepping on the feet of harlies...) Idk they just need something other than S4 and a 5++ and infil... thats actually alot of abilities for a model... maybe if they were cheaper...

I would also like to add Wracks to this list, as Elites they are just garbage... Thats not to say they arent good, but I would never take them in this FOC, now for troops they are amazing.

Troops: There are no bad choices. I would like to say though even as Troops, I think Hellions are sub-par. I just cant put myself to putting deathstar like points into one unit that isnt going to stand up as a deathstar. They are sub-par shooting (compared to a venom) and have sub-par assault capabilites (compared to wyches) and are terrible without Baron, who needs to babysit them almost 24/7... I cant see the point of wasting almost a 1/4 of your army on one unit...

FA: If I didnt like Hellions as troops, what makes you think I will like them better in this slot???

Also I would like to add Scourges to this list. Its not that I dont like Scourges, its just that with the advent of GKs and to some extent Crons, I find that their premier weapon (the haywire blaster) is just not viable in an all comers list. On top of that their AI capabilites can be found elsewhere (venoms) for cheaper, and their AT capabilites are either sucicidal (heat lances), or barely reconisable (blasters). Also with cover being so readily available, their 4+ we pay a premium for is almost moot. If/when cover/the vehicle damage chart changes then Im all for these guys, as I do love them alot, but this edition just isnt friendly to them.

HS: I actually like the Chronos alot. I think he has several purposes. Like in a WWP list being able to pass tokens to Taloi and warrior squads that help sit around your portal keeping it alive. The problem being is that such a Mech heavy eviroment hurts him alot. That being said I dont think he is such a bad choice that he deserves to be on this list, its just you need to plan on how to use him.

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PostSubject: Re: Worst Dark Eldar Choices.   Tue Jan 31 2012, 16:41

Special Characters - Decapitator, hands down. Basically Marbo of our book.

HQ - most of Haemonculus Wargear. Considering close range, wonky rules (wounding on LD? With 10 beeing standard among SM?) it's just better to pick Liquifier/Shattershard.
Also PW on Archon and Succubus. 5 point difference is meaningless. And Wych Weapons, nah.

Elites - ... do we even need to mention Mandrakes? And even better, Night Fiend upgrade? No? Good.
I like models tho.
And massive fail with Clowns without Venoms. They are good in WWP lists.

Troops - This one would be controversial but... Agonisers. Let me explain - for double points of PW You get wounding on 4+ always. IMHO it's not worth much more than PW that works similar. I want field another Wych/Warrior/Wrack.
Acothyst upgrade. Pretty pointless for unit purpose. Double face slap for no PW, only overpriced "funsies".

Fast Attack - Scourges with Splinter Cannons or Shredders. No, just no. Great way to spoil excellent unit with lack of duality.
And Hellions picked in FA slot.

Heavy - Void Raven, for missed opourtinity of giving us S 10 AP1 Lance.
MCs. Weak. Both. I would like to seed them as unit, with ability to mix them.
And Scourges. I mean, they really should be in HS to make all foot list possible AND playable.

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PostSubject: Re: Worst Dark Eldar Choices.   Tue Jan 31 2012, 17:51

Atleast Marbo gets a demo pack... and is a ton cheaper...

As for the Harlies... you should of seen that coming. People are still butt-hurt about the flying circus. Atleast the Corsair List from AI11 has given me hope that the next Eldar codex Harlies can take transports, which means hopefully ours will be FAQed...

Plus I for one am happy scourges are in the FA slot. HS scourges were THE WORSE DESICION EVER in the last dex... They tried to make them like SM Devs, but with jump packs... The problem being is why give them heavy weapons and mobility if they cant use both at the same time!!! Jet packs would of made more sense... but then you would have people crying foul and that "DE are the new Tau!!!" But oh look... Forgeworld beat you too it GW with their Corsair list... I love Kelly's rules and I think he makes some great units and concepts, but I really wonder if there is like some Rule Nazi sitting away from the Dev team that is like "Nope... cant change that." or is like "I like where you are coming from... but in our other books we have it like this." I mean come on... there is no reason why A: Clowns cant get a transport, especially when the venom was originally theirs in the first place. B: Why you cant have a single model (HQ even) assault when DS with some weird rules. (oh wait... SM have that) C: Heavy Weapons cant be used on the move (oh wait... SM have that again in the form of Termies and bikes... and Chaos have Oblits... and Tau have Suits...) and D: why cant more units take Haywire Blasters!!!!! Its such a good concept, yet so badly done with only two units being able to take them...

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PostSubject: Re: Worst Dark Eldar Choices.   Tue Jan 31 2012, 17:54

HQ - Decap, Haemy Ancient. Special mention goes to Lelith; just a hugely overpriced disappointment.

ELITES - bar Mandrakes none of the choices are 'bad' per se, though it's hard to compete with Blasterborn and Incubi.

TROOPS - I would rate Wracks lowest here, even below Hellions. Despite having T4 and starting out with FnP, Wyches have consistently proven themselves the better, more resilient choice (at least to me). As objective holders, their lack of ranged potential hurts them.

FAST - Hellions. Too much competition in this slot, and that's saying a lot (see sig).

HEAVY - Voidraven Bomber; it doesn't have the frontload of destructive potential its price tag implies. Next in line: Cronos. Sure it's cool and everything but the units that would benefit from Pain tokens do a fine job of gathering them by themselves.



All this said, I'd only rate Mandrakes and their head honcho 'unplayable'.

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PostSubject: Re: Worst Dark Eldar Choices.   Tue Jan 31 2012, 18:01

Truth to be told, It always bugged me why GW/Phil allowed to put such... rightly wrong entries into codex like Mandrakes. Models are cool but if You want to sell more than one box...

I mean... wow, just wow. That's low, even on GW standards. How he missed that?

@Shadows Revenge
Problem with old Scourges was that they had to compete with different HS and there were different FA.
In previous book lack of AI pretty much required Tri-Diss. FA was... pretty much bad, apart from great Reavers.

Now, Reavers were altered slightly and to be honest, I treat them as slightly different Scourges. Faster, more AI, less AT. I would gladly include both.

Also, FA that is slowest part of army (12" move < 12"+ disembark + shooting/running into CC)? I did list with them beeing immobile due to Lances, much like Devastators...

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PostSubject: Re: Worst Dark Eldar Choices.   Tue Jan 31 2012, 18:14

Raneth wrote:
HQ - Decap, Haemy Ancient. Special mention goes to Lelith; just a hugely overpriced disappointment.

TROOPS - I would rate Wracks lowest here, even below Hellions. Despite having T4 and starting out with FnP, Wyches have consistently proven themselves the better, more resilient choice (at least to me). As objective holders, their lack of ranged potential hurts them.

Hmm... Good pick up on Lelith, I forgot about her that quickly Razz

Interesting you havent had much luck with Wracks??? Personally I am in love with them. They are our version of a marine (close to the same statline when you include save + FNP) and their ownly real weakness is power weapons (which kill marines anyway) I will admit though that their lack of long range weapons preterb me, but alteast we can get more liqufiers, and the more ways to get those lovely gems the better imho!!! (im used to only being able to get them on Haemies like the older dex)
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PostSubject: Re: Worst Dark Eldar Choices.   Tue Jan 31 2012, 19:47

Shadows Revenge wrote:
Atleast Marbo gets a demo pack... and is a ton cheaper...

As for the Harlies... you should of seen that coming. People are still butt-hurt about the flying circus. Atleast the Corsair List from AI11 has given me hope that the next Eldar codex Harlies can take transports, which means hopefully ours will be FAQed...


I get the feeling we'll see that Craftworld Venom in the next Eldar dex, and perhaps why we haven't got one now - they didn't want to release the model with DE? That would make me much more willing to take Harlies, as right now foot troops do not fit well with my 100% mech list.
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PostSubject: Re: Worst Dark Eldar Choices.   Tue Jan 31 2012, 20:18

generally yes, i was going to make an argument for the ancient, but i do agree that its expensive by comparison for what you get.
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PostSubject: Re: Worst Dark Eldar Choices.   Thu Feb 02 2012, 16:34

I kind of figures that most Spacial Characters are a bad fit for fielding on the tabletop. They seem to be more for fluff than stuff in my mind, of course that experience is like 11 years past the expiry-date. But even with the Bretonnians is seemed that way.
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PostSubject: Re: Worst Dark Eldar Choices.   Thu Feb 02 2012, 17:55

To be honest, I would gladly NOT take any HQ, apart from one - IG Command squad, since it's basically elite Elite unit. Not "Four Star Badass and his Scrubs", but unit that literally help. It can pick HWS, special weapons, add tactical options, hop in tank... like a boss.

I find DE HQs especially obsolete in some builds. No shooting HQ, no "psyker or psy defence" HQ, 1 that unlock "ok" troops... They aren't bad, just not "HQish". I see A LOT of lists that pick HQ just to fill requirement... Hell, *I DID* a lot of that list.

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PostSubject: Re: Worst Dark Eldar Choices.   Fri Feb 03 2012, 05:10

The thing is, I wanted to like the Mandrakes so much, based on the new models and especially the fluff. (Part demon, oh yeah. Very Happy )

Unfortunately, the rules don't quite live up to the fluff. Crying or Very sad

I find that Wychs don't work out for me. Not because of the rules, but because I don't seem to do so well in CC. Usually, the fight goes like this: the Wychs attack, throw umpteen attacks, wound once, which is saved, then take a casualty, fail their morale, fail their initiative roll, and get rundown in combat. Very embarrassing. Embarassed

Basically, I guess I'm trying to say YMMV, on even these good units.

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PostSubject: Re: Worst Dark Eldar Choices.   Fri Feb 03 2012, 11:15

I personally hope that Mandrakes will shine (or at least be playable) in next edition.
With the ability of directed hits, lessened need of assault grenades and maybe little less mechanised envirnment they may be playable.
At least those are my hopes, otherwise thats really stupid they made so great models and made so crappy rules, GW cant be that blind, probably they had something in mind when they made rules for that.

Although if GW was indeed that blind....well , that wont be unheard of. My Swooping Hawks looking at me with their sad sad eyes from the shelf, which they so rarely leave.
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PostSubject: Re: Worst Dark Eldar Choices.   Fri Feb 10 2012, 16:47

I mostly like SS's list. I don't think we have a bad Troop selection (unless *maybe* Hellions and that only on the logic of using them to fill the Troop slots)

Hellions are certainly the worst FA slot - they're only good as a Troop slot.

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