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 Re animation protocol and pain tokens

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re animation protocol and pain tokens   Sun Jan 22 2012, 18:47

So do we wait for the necron warrior with RAP to fail it's special rule before we get the pain token? (lets say it is from a cronos vortex)

How about the soul trap? An Archon kills an overlord with a huskblade, do we have to wait for the overlord to fail its "ever-living" rule before we can trap it?

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Re animation protocol and pain tokens   Sun Jan 22 2012, 20:12

1. Per the FAQ - we need to 'remove them from play' to get a token.

2. If I recall correctly, the RAP rule does say they are killed but are not removed from play, yes? With that in mind the Soul Trap should still trigger...if I'm recalling wrong then #1 applies again. Frankly I'd expect most people to want to play it like #1 and that makes sense to me too.

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Re animation protocol and pain tokens   Mon Jan 23 2012, 07:54

@Thor665 wrote:
1. Per the FAQ - we need to 'remove them from play' to get a token.

But what about the 2nd part of the article in the FAQ you bring up there?

"In the case of a
Necronunit, a pain token will be generated once a unit
has been destroyed (even if some of its models have
returned into other nearby units)."

In my humble opinion this means that it doesn't matter if some models of the original unit get back in other units. You get the pain token regardless.

So I'd say 'no' to grumpy's 1st question. You don't have to wait for it to fail.

Or am I reading this wrong?

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Re animation protocol and pain tokens   Mon Jan 23 2012, 16:37

We're specifically discussing the odd null time when the model is "dead" but isn't off the table (note he's mentioning the Cronos).

Definitely if the unit is wiped out there is no question you get a pain token regardless if other units got +1 model.

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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: Re animation protocol and pain tokens   Sat Mar 17 2012, 10:30

Sorry to Necro-thread (lol, necron thread maybe), but we have had this come up in our league. Its not regarding the Cronos but the Royal Court, and if a unit destroyed gives up a pain token even if the attached Royal Court member returns via Ever Living.

Royal Court members are characters, but not Independant Characters, so they do not give up a paintoken on their own. They act similar to wolfguard in taking on the aspects of the squad they join (e.g. troops for scoring) and are considered "upgrade characters". The argument against is that because the RC member is now part of the unit, if it returns via EL then it stops a pain token from being generated. Our FAQ is no help as it actually references We'll Be Back, the OLD Necron rule, which is different. The Necron FAQ does mention a "character" getting an EL roll even if "its unit is wiped out".

My feeling is it should work like this; when a unit with attached Necron Court member is destroyed, the DE unit gains a pain token, even if the Lord returns to play through Ever Living. Yes, he technically joins and leads the unit, becoming part of the unit ( e.g. troop for scoring etc.) but he is not native to that unit. He is not an upgrade character like a sergeant in that he is paid for in the squads cost, the court is a seperate entity unto itself paid for as it's own unit, models are then disseminated into various squads in the army. The Royal court member would not give an extra pain token if killed (say in an overrun situation) as it is not an IC, however if all members of the royal court were killed then the last member of said Court regardless of which unit type he is currently in would give one pain token for all court members.

Note the Necron FAQ says "You would only get to make one roll for the attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule. Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of the counter as his unit has been wiped out." I read attached as in technically seperate from the unit, temporarily coexisting with the unit taking on aspects of it but still seperate and wiped out as exactly that, destroyed.

Obviously I have a vested interest in this Wink so I turn to you my fellow Archons, what say you regarding the foul Necrontyr?

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Re animation protocol and pain tokens   Sat Mar 17 2012, 18:07

In my opinion, just like Wolf Guard, they are an upgrade unit to that squad. He's not an IC and officially has no unit other than the one he's part of. At that point it seems fairly self evident when Paint Tokens are or are not generated.

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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: Re animation protocol and pain tokens   Sun Mar 18 2012, 18:50

I see your point Thor, and raise you one more.

The DE FAQ regarding units that return was written with the We'll Be Back rules in mind, which no longer exist. WBB allowed necrons of the same unit type to return to a nearby unit and fill out its ranks, whereas now if there is no member of the unit left, Reanimation Protocols do not work. Ever Living on the other hand has been FAQ'd in the necron codex to allow an attached character to gain his roll, even if the unit he is joined to, and now constrained by their rules, is wiped out (unless they are overrun in close combat).

My argument is not without precedent, in the Grey Knight codex Justicar Thawn, who can return to play similarly to Necron EL characters, has been FAQ'd to give up a pain token the first time he is reduced to 0 wounds after he has left his unit. Granted he is an independant character, and as such should give up a pain token, but the principal is the same. A pain token eligible unit has been wiped out, it gives up its pain token and oops! it comes back again, but does not grant further pain tokens.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Re animation protocol and pain tokens   Sun Mar 18 2012, 19:00

I honestly don't understand your confusion or your question. You shouldn't be using examples involving ICs and applying them to non-ICs which is what I think you're doing.

Could you maybe restate the new question/confusion?

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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: Re animation protocol and pain tokens   Sun Mar 18 2012, 19:35

I can understand your confusion, let me try to clarify. I only used Thawn as an example as it is another unit that returns to play, I apologise if it has muddied the waters, my bad.
My disconnect on this is the Ever Living rule, and how it applies to characters. I get that we get a pain token when we wipe out a unit, I get that a necron Royal Court character, even though bound by the rules of the unit he has joined, gets his Ever Living roll (even though the unit does not as Reanimation Protocols do not work if a unit is wiped out, you must be able to place a model in coherency with it's unit.).
What I don't get is how their special rule seems to trump our special rule; inasmuch as we could wipe out a unit under the old WBB and have them return but to a different unit and still get a pain token, but because of the character rule of Ever Living and a Royal Court member counting now as part of the joined unit we do not.
My logic (as admittedly flawed as it may be) tells me that if the Royal Court member can return, as a "unit" member if it does a necron unit could never truly be wiped out; insofar as you could return the RC member then the wiped out unit would get all its Reanimation Protocol rolls as they could now come back in coherency. Fortunately in the Necron FAQ, it clearly states a character gets its EL roll if its unit is wiped out, so this is not the case, the unit counts as wiped out. If the unit is wiped out, we should get a pain token, shouldn't we?

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PostSubject: Re: Re animation protocol and pain tokens   Sun Mar 18 2012, 22:33

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
If the unit is wiped out, we should get a pain token, shouldn't we?
Yes, which is what I said earlier.

The only way a model coming back counts is if the model is a unit (IC - or certain MCs)
But the way the Court models come back doesn't do that, because they're not a unit in and of themselves. They don't grant an extra pain token and therefore their ability to return to the board doesn't negate the token either. A model is returning, not a unit. We get a token from Power From Pain for wiping out units, not models.

That said...if you're using a Cronos Vortex or Spirit Probe (et al) this matters, because those rules trigger off model death, not unit death.

Edit: Actually, I think I was misunderstanding you - the above all holds, but because he is part of a unit, when he comes back he does prevent the token from that unit being wiped happening because he's still part of the unit and is therefore himself needing to be destroyed to get the pain token.

I thought you were thinking of him as an IC extra token.

So, to clarify;

We wipe out a unit with an attached Royal Court member = 1 Pain token.
Royal Court Member returns to play - he is still aprt of that unit, and thus we get no token because we haven't wiped that unit yet = no Pain Tokens.
We later kill him and he doesn't return =1 Pain Token.
Cronos kills a Royal Court and a member of squad he's joined with, Royal Court member returns = 1 Pain Token gained overall (gained 2, but lost 1 when RC returned)

Make sense?

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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: Re animation protocol and pain tokens   Tue Mar 20 2012, 15:40

@Thor665 wrote:
So, to clarify;

We wipe out a unit with an attached Royal Court member = 1 Pain token.
Royal Court Member returns to play - he is still aprt of that unit, and thus we get no token because we haven't wiped that unit yet = no Pain Tokens.
We later kill him and he doesn't return =1 Pain Token.
Cronos kills a Royal Court and a member of squad he's joined with, Royal Court member returns = 1 Pain Token gained overall (gained 2, but lost 1 when RC returned)

Make sense?

Yup! It does make sense, as the Cronos weapon descriptions do not mention the all important words "removed as a casualty" as this is what triggers RP and EL rolls to occur. It and the Animus Vitae are the only examples I can think of in our book that refer to killing models.

The part that I'm stuck on (and admittedly I just can't seem to wrap my head around this, so please forgive me) is the usurping of our pain token in the first part of your example. By Necron FAQ/Codex ruling the unit counts as wiped out, BUT the attached character can come back, circumventing the standard unit rules. Shouldn't by rights, our PFP do the same thing?

Maybe I ask too much; a game with a well written and balanced ruleset that is completely clear and unambigous AND ridiclulously cool models to play with and paint.

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PostSubject: Re: Re animation protocol and pain tokens   Tue Mar 20 2012, 17:56

Quote :
Maybe I ask too much; a game with a well written and balanced ruleset that is completely clear and unambigous AND ridiclulously cool models to play with and paint.

Warmachine?




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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Re animation protocol and pain tokens   Wed Mar 21 2012, 01:30

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
The part that I'm stuck on (and admittedly I just can't seem to wrap my head around this, so please forgive me) is the usurping of our pain token in the first part of your example. By Necron FAQ/Codex ruling the unit counts as wiped out, BUT the attached character can come back, circumventing the standard unit rules. Shouldn't by rights, our PFP do the same thing?
Up until the rolls are made to come back, the unit isn't wiped - so we don't get anything.
After the roles are made the unit that the character was joined with was wiped - but he himself is also part of that unit as far as killpoints and PFP goes, and therefore the entire unit hasn't been killed and therefore our power doesn't trigger.

Think of it like if a Sarge upgrade character came back, the 'rest of' his unit can be wiped, but that doesn't mean the 'entire' unit is wiped.

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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: Re animation protocol and pain tokens   Thu Mar 22 2012, 01:58

@Thor665 wrote:
Think of it like if a Sarge upgrade character came back, the 'rest of' his unit can be wiped, but that doesn't mean the 'entire' unit is wiped.

Yeah, it does seem to work out that way. Just seems unbalanced that his RC member which is now part of the unit still gets his special rule; but our special rule gets trumped. Looks like I need to add an animus vitae to a haemy Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Re animation protocol and pain tokens   Thu Mar 22 2012, 02:17

@Ruke wrote:
Quote :
Maybe I ask too much; a game with a well written and balanced ruleset that is completely clear and unambigous AND ridiclulously cool models to play with and paint.

Warmachine?

http://privateerpress.com/files/products/33036_BehemothWEB%20%281%29.jpg
http://privateerpress.com/files/products/35045_HypnosWEB.jpg
Way to pick 2 of the worst models in the range to show off the game lol

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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: Re animation protocol and pain tokens   Thu Mar 22 2012, 02:27

@Baron Tordeck wrote:
@Ruke wrote:
Quote :
Maybe I ask too much; a game with a well written and balanced ruleset that is completely clear and unambigous AND ridiclulously cool models to play with and paint.

Warmachine?

http://privateerpress.com/files/products/33036_BehemothWEB%20%281%29.jpg
http://privateerpress.com/files/products/35045_HypnosWEB.jpg
Way to pick 2 of the worst models in the range to show off the game lol

LOL!

Thats why I play Hordes Very Happy After all, I get to play with more evil, strangely attractive, elves only now I gets Dragons too! cheers

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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: Re animation protocol and pain tokens   Thu Mar 22 2012, 02:44

Quote :
Way to pick 2 of the worst models in the range to show off the game lol

XD I happen to like those models... and if those are some of the WORST models, well...

anyway, I totally would have picked up Warmachine over 40K, except, I don't know anyone who plays it... :'(

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