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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Thu Jan 12 2012, 13:18

@dangerous beans wrote:
EDIT: I'm not sure that its quite that simple for the Dark Eldar to be honest Shadows Revenge: there are a great many strategems that can minimise this occuring as well as opponents pulling a '5th ed dark eldar trick' of placing everything in research and them task forcing groups of suitably nasty units out + combined with strategems to help bring units in from reserve or even instantly appear on turn 3, I think that this is countered somewhat. And all this whilst your army is exposed on display for them all to see...

And then all you have to do is jet around flat out every turn and make those backs and devs roll in hitting you on 6s Razz

The math by changing BS, yet getting rid of coversaves increases our survivability drastically (plus open topped isnt +1 on the chart anymore if you believe the leak)

So now instead of this happening when we get hit by a missle launcher- 1*.667*.833*.5= 27.780% chance of an effect, of which there is a 16.666% chance of the raider dropping out of the sky.

Now by the supposed rule changes... we have this- 1*.166*.833*.333(remember we get flickerfields)= 3.217% chance of an effect, of which there is only 1.253% chance of a wreck 1.071% chance of a wreck. Ill take that any day of the week Razz

dont worry though, everything is fine and dandy for us until Ward gives all BB Marines the ability to ignore evasion modifiers...
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Dez
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Thu Jan 12 2012, 13:26

Flash Gitz do, they get Targeter which treats everything they shoot at as stationary. While I am more excited about DE in 6th than anything else, I couldn't help but notice that for my beloved Flash Gitz.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Fri Jan 13 2012, 20:17

Just skimmed through most of the pdf and I am excited for it (hope its real or at least 90% of it is)

I'm gonna see if I cant convince someone to test the leak pdf at my LGS.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Sat Jan 14 2012, 03:15

i'm leaning toward massive troll. wonder if all the SM players are in an uproar...

if this isn't a troll would that make taking the incubi captain a must? from the sounds of it the demi klaves still give the parry save.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Sat Jan 14 2012, 07:13

Troll or not to troll....

PDF has a time stamp of May yet has references to the Catacomb Command Barge and Eternity Gate, things nobody knew about before; I don't know how easy it is to fake...

Apparently it uses the same software as what GW use, was started in Scotland, not Nottingham but the original creator bears the same name as someone who works in the GW layout department...

Someone took claim for it, saying that they and some friends made it for their FLGS...

Links go down very quickly, GW is working hard to stop it. All GW managers sent an email saying it is fake - this was also down regarding Space Hulk being the black box...

The big thing now is if the Cerebore, a Nid transport mentioned in the PDF makes its way into WD next month...

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Sat Jan 14 2012, 16:47

Moving this post from another thread. Everyone please keep in mind possible IP infringements. Also keep the discussion related to how all this will affect DE, where possible. Gobsmakked.

@Eldur wrote:
Well, well, well... I recently acquired some "leaked" 6th edition rules from the webway, and if they're real (it's a good marketing strategy to leak the beta rules and see reactions, to prevent a massive sales failure), then I have some ideas about the meta change..

The damage chart for vehicles doesn't change, at least in names and numbers in the dice... BUT: a shaken means that the vehicle wont make a longer move than combat speed, but still will be able to make a single shot (taking into account machine spirit); a stunned means no movement nor shooting at all, AND +1 to shooting against it (for it will count as stationary target); weapon destroyed means the vehicle loose 1 shooting action (not the weapon itself); immobilised is the same but it can shoot (unless already stunned), and wrecked and explosion is the same.
Chart modifications are ALL NEGATIVE: -2 glancing hit, -3 for blast markers not touching with center hole, -3 for super-heavy, -1 for ALL TANKS (unless open topped or against AP1).
[no penalty for other vehicles being oppen-topped]

Also, second stunned means weapon destroyed, when there's no more possible effects from weapons destroyed then another one means immobilised and second immobilised means wrecked. These are stacking rules (so you can go up 3 times in the chart). BUT!! These repeated results must come from another attacking unit. So if you roll 2 inmovilised with the same unit these will count as one. This means that it's better to have multiple units shooting at one tank that having only one doing it.

Then we can assume that our army will benefit from multiple units equipped with lance weapons... it gets even better if you take into account that any model with BS 4 shooting against a moving tank hits at 2+!! (the same against stationary targets of all type except skimmers, jetbikes and swarms).

Other things: we will be able to shoot from Raiders while counting as being Relentless (dark lances and splinter cannons get better), and will shot even when moving at cruise speed. But you won't take an objective if you're not on foot (and objectives are taken every turn, not only at the end). Also, you won't be able to disembark if you moved more than combat speed (8"), but you can embark at the end of the turn, in the consolidation phase.

Oh! And annihilation points are counted from the cost the units (every 40 points 1 victory point), not from number of units. SPAM SPAM SPAM, good selling strategy.


And I won't say more... unless you ask me Smile

With hate,

Eldur
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Sat Jan 14 2012, 18:58

Well first of all i think Ravagers will be moved from Heavy Support by Razorwings , which will be way more surviavable and devastating to everything. They also use rules for flyers after using Supersonic move.

It has ability to split fire, so we can launch rockets at enemy infantry and fire dark lances at transports. As for rockets necrotoxin missile just seems way to great with those rules - blast scatter only if doesnt hit, and each wound lower pinning check by -1 up to -3.

Pinning can play far more important role with this.


1) Well naturally new WS chart buff our cc a lot, simple succubi now is terrible thing - hit marines on 2+, recieves on 5+. Being army with highest WS thats really good change, it will help us a lot.

2) Dark Lances...they are even crappier then before. We simply cant explode tanks, we cant score reslut 6 with anything less then AP1. So we will probably need about same amount of fire to destroy enemy vehicles , good thing all hits starting from shaken adds up, but still...
On the bright side we will get more hits against big and unmoved targets.

3) But. This new damage table and new sequence actually help us deal with transports. Haywire grenades now simply cant explode anything, meaning wyches are safe. If we block exits with wyches can assault , or if they dont assault we have whole shooting phase to kill whats get out of transport.

So bane of mass AV12 is now fall to wyches, i expect they will be taken far more often.
Dark Lances will be more for targets like Land Raiders/Predators/Leman Russes...no need to take hell lot of them.

4) Mandrakes are playable, Kheradruk is playeable. They dont really seems to shine, but at least its not just plain and absolute garbage choices.

5) Reavers...they got a lot more squishers..just terribly so. In current rule set moving on flat-out dont give them any specific defense, just moving give them -1 on current BS. So marines will hit them on 4. Their Toughness 4 will only work against range atacks.
I dont know it seems there isnt finished part about flat-out defensive bonuses. There are none.

On the plus side they can divide fire, and in the game where assault phase goes before shooting we will see a massive use of bubble-wrap units , so their unique ability to damage during movement will help our assault elements.

6) Vect..got even more scarier...hit everything below WS7 on 2+, gives massive advantages in the form of Seize Initiative which will give us valuable stratagems.

7) Lelith...one man army. As was meant. Hit marines on 2+, can chose targets in CC (conditions apply).
Also No Retreat now is more damaging them before (for marines), if enemy with Fearless will fail modified leadership they will suffer wound per point of failed LD. This wound cant be saved by armor save, but can be negated by another roll of LD with same modifers per wound.

Cool Talos...thats a good thing here. He is basically S10 against any infantry, also if taken Linked Liquifers you can place Template 6 inches away from him...and most funny part....(!!!)...units in transports which have fire points take D3 hits from Template weapons...make a soup in rhino ).
A little hit on its FnP (or maybe not so little) AP3 now negates it. Which is relevant cause Long Fangs wont go anywhere as it seems.They are easier to deal with at least.

9)Incubi...bloodstone on Klaivex can fire into close combat ( as any template weapon during turn you assult with it). D6 autohits with same S AP. And you absolutely want to take Klaivex cause he can direct hits in CC, as any upgrade character.

10) Warriors, Sybarite is a must , at least on 10 man squads, it allows to do many tasty things. Blast Pistol is also not useless, as it can be used in CC. Ghostplate armor can make him protected against directed hits , as it will place his in different armor group.

11) Raiders. Well they lost 4+ save from flat-out , but also lost +1 on damage table.Plus they are little more difficult to hit. All in all they are little tiny bit more survivable.
Good change is regarding passengers there. All passengers inside transport are relentless. And if it more on cruising speed (16) one passenger can fire up to 18 inches.If move on normal speed all can fire up to 18 inches. That somewhat allow more use of 10 man warrios squads.

12) Venoms..well little change. Except Relentless. Dark Lance Borne is a better unit then it is now.
Shredders also gained some worth due to some character rule and the fact that blasts scatter less now.

13) Duke...will frak shine. Yes we cant disembark after DS but its easily alleviated by the fact that we can deepstrike without scatter 18 inches away from enemy, can then move at combat speed and shoot. And we also can reserve things in battlegroups, so they come simulteniously. That brings some minuses, but reserving will be far simpler in 6th.

14) Baron - will exchange his roll for first trun on roll who choses deployment zones.Just like its written in the codex now. His PGL will be able to fire Krak and Frag grenades and whole unit will be able to trow grenades agains halves enemy WS. ( Moving target WS is 10, you can only use grenades against vecicle or monsters). Helions with him will be less survivable then they are now.

15) Most of Arcane gear of haemy remain as crap as it is now. But somewhat little better.Liquifier is a must, as it can be used in CC. Webway Portal is buffed due to reserve rules.

16) Wracks..well most of our troops suffer from normal cover went to 5+.They can still rock with liquifiers.Acothys wont lose atack for different special weapons, he will just chose which weapon chose as primary to use its rules. Hexrilfe is ok, but probably not that good. Certainly better then now.

17) Wyches..i dont know. Big offset is that Agonsier now can be killed and we cant change that. On the other hand we can kill that something that can kill agoniser faster then it can kill us.All in all we are more scarier in CC then before.

18) Scourges are ok, have 10/20 move , benefit massively from new DS and Reserve rules. More attractive then now.Ignore Terrain. As all Flying Infantry.

19) Helions are ok.More or less like they are now.Just less random movements. Same movements and rules as Scourges. Can charge after DS (if not be shredded by defenisve fire or scattered by DS).

20) Voidraven..well it get better , but remain as filthy expensive as before.Can split fire which i suppose is his selling benefit. And can do this bombing run with same crappy small blast which always scatters.

21)Generic Archon.The only meaningfull buff is that we can use different weapons and not lose atack. We can aslo take stratagem (cheapest of them all) which allow us to reroll any failed save. Shadowfield will just love this.
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Sat Jan 14 2012, 19:41

@Azdrubael wrote:

13) Duke...will frak shine. Yes we cant disembark after DS but its easily alleviated by the fact that we can deepstrike without scatter 18 inches away from enemy, can then move at combat speed and shoot. And we also can reserve things in battlegroups, so they come simulteniously. That brings some minuses, but reserving will be far simpler in 6th.

Also, "garbage jets" are now useful (Duke actually give free jets) so You can take something else in HQ and still have "Duke Drop".

Like we should have from the beginning but "Can't disembark, derp" rule screwed us over.

You know guys, I think this one can be fake. It's too complex. And not rotflrandom, at all (like luck-fest Fantasy).
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Sun Jan 15 2012, 15:42

Regarding the lances, wasn't there a rumour earlier that weaposn with the Lance rule would not take any negative modifier to damage rolls (effectively making them ap1)? I hope thta would be true, as it would finally make lance somethign other than an expensive missile launcher with less range.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Sun Jan 15 2012, 16:52

Doubt it. It will be overpowered if it will be so.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Sun Jan 15 2012, 19:23

http://www.beastsofwar.com/warhammer-40k/6th-edition-40k-play-video/

Beast of war did a video of them talking a bit about the rules.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Mon Jan 16 2012, 16:34

We will see more Archons (repeat save with Stratagem, additional attacks even with blaster), and Vect too (EVEN with Dais), but also Mandrakes (engage at charging, able to shoot and +1 attack due to assault weapon with Pain Token) and Kerandhruakh are more viable and fun to play.

Grenade launchers, pistols as combat weapons, allocating wounds between different save groups... all of these open new game possibilities just by equipping our squad leaders.
NOTE about wound allocation: how many different groups of saves do we have in a Court? Before Pain Tokens, I can see 3 without the Archon.

Flamers in combat: liquifers! medusae! about that thing: everyone from the court has its place right now (Lhameae for its Leadership, you won't use an Ur'ghul as squad leader!!).

Pistols in combat: wyches against Monsters. They are our Sweden knife right now.

AN IMPORTANT QUOTE: what the heck happens when I get a 1 in drugs roll?!?!?

With Supersonic move, our jets are now able to shot vehicles from the back from the first turn, no matter how far they are. I can see pinning more often due to necrotoxins (a missile or two aimed at long fangs should be enough to stop their shooting, I recommend two: and remember you'll hit with a 2+ hahaha!).

Quite a bad thing: Independent characters won't be able to use their BS while in a unit (check this, I'm pretty sure). On the other side, your Archon could use Covering Fire to get rid of some Sergeants with power fists.

Our Feel No Pain is now vulnerable to AP 3 weapons.... but is no longer vulnerable to S6 weapons!!!!! (Instant death starts at 4 points of strenghth over toughness, so Wracks need S8+ or AP1,2,3 to be vulnerable).

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Tue Jan 17 2012, 08:25

Pretty much means everyone should just start collecting BA, some of it sounds good but some parts of it are just terrible. Looks like we won't ever be able to take down an IG mech list, tau will devastate us with that railgun rule (out of LOS wtf) and the overwatch rule and being able to shoot in combat will mean that wyches will be useless ( i assume that as it is a shooting attack they don't get there 4++ ) Not happy with much

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Tue Jan 17 2012, 11:36

When you use flamers or pistols in combat they count as combat weapons and they count as combat attacks.
BA tanks will be fast, but not skimmers or fast skimmers, so they retain many disadvantages compared to raiders like the +1 to be hit even when moving. And if they want a save they must move in cover at combat speed, while we have a 5++ in the open, or we can appear from dense terrain (outo of LoS).
Railguns only hit models, not whole units. Irts easy to maneuver so we can avoid multiple hits (specially in our vehicles)

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Tue Jan 17 2012, 13:46

Some more notes:

I still wouldn't bother with the bloodstone for incubi squads, as (i believe) that you'd have to sacrifice the klaivex's normal attacks in order to use the bloodstone in cc, and his normal attacks are more likely to be more useful (of course, if you can do the template weapon attack *in addition* to normal cc attacks, then it will be worth it).

Pinning will be easier to pull off, but pinning is also less nasty. Pinned units are only 'shaken', which means that they can still perform shooting and engage actions. However, they cannot perform support actions, so it will be a good idea to pin units that are hiding in terrain/cover, so that you can alpha strike them with assault units.

Also, since being 'shaken' isn't completely crippling to a unit, it won't be a bad idea to have squads of warriors that are objective-sitting go to ground when being shot at, for a 4+ cover save (assuming that they're in 5+ cover to begin with), as they will be able to return fire in their next shooting phase.

As I understand it, Aerial Assault only gives the Razorwing multi-targeting(3), so you'll need to be selective about what you fire during those supersonic moves. Of course, you can just travel at combat speed and unload with 6 shooting actions - note that each missile takes up a separate action, with splitting fire costing one. Firing both dark lances/disintegrators is 2 actions.

Attaching haemonculi to wyches might be a bit less common, since you can only have independent characters leave squads during the consolidation phase. So you can't just drop off wyches and leave the haemy on the transport during the movement phase. However, even without fleet, you've still got a 14" threat range (8" transport combat move + 6" engage)
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Tue Jan 17 2012, 15:51

@krayd wrote:
Attaching haemonculi to wyches might be a bit less common, since you can only have independent characters leave squads during the consolidation phase. So you can't just drop off wyches and leave the haemy on the transport during the movement phase. However, even without fleet, you've still got a 14" threat range (8" transport combat move + 6" engage)
Keeping the Heamy in the squad isn't all that bad actually (depending on who you charge of course). With a Liquifier, he gets D6 attacks on str 4 with random AP. Just be careful who you put him in B2B with. Also, you can charge out of a fast transport moving at combat speed, for a total of 20" on assault range. You will only lose 4" (2 times Fleet's extra move) because of the Heamy.

Wyches can now choose to use their pistols in CC instead of their normal attacks. Yes, you lose an attack, but you get 4+ poison in return. On the charge vs T5+ opponents, this will score you some extra wounds on average.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Tue Jan 17 2012, 18:51

Actually it's the open-topped rule which gives disembarking units the possibility to charge or run after a combat move (8+2x8=24" or 8+2x6=20" with haemonculus, as Mandor said). The best thing is that you know your charging range before disembarking! So I will charge with my wyches without fear of ending disengaged in the open.

A tactical note: if you're afraid of killing the whole enemy squad with wyches in your own turn, you can also use their pistols instead of whole number of attacks to reduce the damage and keep yourelf in combat.
Or even better: leave an empty raider next to the combat to embark again after winning in your consolidation phase. Having a transport near is also a good way to keep units in the battle, because they can embark and lose any result of broken, shaken or stunned also!

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Wed Jan 18 2012, 04:28

So my overpriced darklight used to wreck vehicles on a 5, explode them on a 6. A 1 in 3 chance of destroying it so i can get at the passengers with my AI.

Now my overpriced darklight cannot explode the tank and needs a 6 to wreck! A 1 in 6 chance of getting at the creamy centre.

That really sucks! I hope this is fake!
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Wed Jan 18 2012, 04:57

So, it seems they have removed the rule about lances being effectively ap1 seen in the earlier rumours (ap1 being changed to ignore that -1 to damage chart from tanks)? Shame, as it seemed like a good idea, and might've finally made lances worth their price. As it is, we have very little ap1 weaponry, mostly mounted on platforms thta aren't all that effective (Talos is really slow and requires a webway list, Scourges with heat lances are pretty much suicide units, and Reavers got a massive nerf in loosing the turboboost cover save). So I quess we'll still be spamming lances to inflict any damage.

However, it should be noted thta most things that are currently tanks will not be tanks in the 5th edition. Stuff like Rhino and Chimera won't be, but big and heavily armoured vehicles like Russes and Landraiders will. Not sure if other Marine tanks will be. Also, fully mechanised lists aren't that viable since you need to be out of transports to hold objectives (the older rumours said open topped transports could hold objectives, but seems this is removed as well. Shame, as we don't really have any troops that can survive sitting several turns on an objective).

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Wed Jan 18 2012, 07:35

Thanks for clearing that up nomic. I thought rhinos, razors and chimera were tanks. Even so darklight has been slightly nerfed (if this is real) when it needs a decent boost as you mentioned.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Wed Jan 18 2012, 07:54

Why wouldn't Rhinos and Chimerae be tanks in the new edition? According to the leaked PDF, anything with a Tank flag is a tank in the new rules. I think the Imperials would be quite upset if their underpriced metal boxes lose tank shock.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Wed Jan 18 2012, 10:37

@Painjunky wrote:
So my overpriced darklight used to wreck vehicles on a 5, explode them on a 6. A 1 in 3 chance of destroying it so i can get at the passengers with my AI.

Now my overpriced darklight cannot explode the tank and needs a 6 to wreck! A 1 in 6 chance of getting at the creamy centre.

On the other hand, you will no longer have the problem where you lance a vehicle 3 times, roll 3 stun results, and all you get is a 'vehicle - stunned' for your trouble. Damage can add up quicker, with additional stun results shifting to 'weapon destroyed' and an additional immobilized result shifting immediately to 'wrecked'.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Wed Jan 18 2012, 14:03

Sure, and you get to hit more often because tanks have a basic evasion value of 2. So we will hit on a 2+. Raiders while moving will have Ev 3.

Orks will be happy that they will hit tanks and monsters on a 4+ (3+ if target remained stationary). Rokkit spam armies will be quite good at tank hunting (at least for 12 or less armor values).

Taking into account that rhinos and razorbacks are not assault vehicles nor open-topped, they become less interesting options (and they are not able to move more than 6" in terrain, while we can move up to 16" and shoot a weapon from the inside, and we ignore dangerous terrain at the same time).

Take a look at this new unnoficial rules and think about how they would affect the current meta: our vehicles are better now compared to rhinos for example: they are hit more often (which is pretty bad for them), while they have one point over our armor and -1 in the chart. But we have more speed, we're open topped (which now is always better in terms of transport use) and we compensate our fragility with a 5++ save. If they want a save, they will be slowed by terrain (so they'll become easy bait for our wyches).
Definitely we will see less mech in the new edition if it remains like this, or at least our mech will be as strong (or weak) as theirs.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Wed Jan 18 2012, 14:07

Actually, won't raiders be ev 4 when moving (+1 due to jink)?

I'm not too crazy about the idea of the Talos being shot on 2+, however.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Edition Leaked Rulebook & FAQ discussion   Wed Jan 18 2012, 14:21

Raiders have massive and jink rules, so if they remain stationary, +2 to be hit, and if they move +0.
Talos will be hit with a +1 (+2 if stationary) but its faster than before (no more rolling for Run moves), so he can be in combat by turn 2 (so webway is less compulsory).

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Archon ÐЖѦXΛI: Let's go outside... and wipe out an entire civilization in a feast of murder and pain.

Eldur project log for Dark Eldar and Eldar
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