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 40K and Shooting from Fast vehicles

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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: 40K and Shooting from Fast vehicles   Fri May 27 2011, 16:47

Hello!

I'm concerned about rules for Shooting from vehicles (all in general, but mostly fast)
I guess you know what is salt in my eye - 6" movement limit + counting as moved.
While most armies don't care too much due to lack of Fast/fire points/OT transports.

However rules REALLY screw Orks and DE (both excellent codexes), so I'm pissed.

So for example I can't move 12" and Fire shootas from Trukk, despite fact I can use all s4 weapons mounted on it (and 1 s5+).

So how *I* would fix ruleset?

Using it.

Imagine GW would write something like this:
"Passangers weapons count as vehicle weapons for fireing purposes (however Heavy weapons count as moved unless You can fire ALL weapons) but they can target different units. In addition, they don't limit Vehicle weapons use (as they are different units)"

So how that work out?

Let's imagine Raider full of Warriors with Lance and blaster move 6". You may use All reapons, so you may use Raider Lance AND all weapons of Warriors (even Lance, since it doesn't count as moved)

In next turn Raider move 12". In next turn I can shoot Raider's Lance and warriors can use all "defensive" weapons and 1 non-heavy s5+ weapon (blaster).


How to You like it?
It actually change whole 40k Mech, but not so much (with exception of Fast Transports).

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Saintspirit
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PostSubject: Re: 40K and Shooting from Fast vehicles   Fri May 27 2011, 17:00

I see your point. Considering how the use of heavy weapons would still be limited and such I don't think it would be OP. I wouldn't have any problems with it, apart from me being a DE player.
In fact, I thought the rules you suggested was how it was already. You should try it out with a friend and see how it works out, and see wether it is too good.

Still, I kinda understand the reason of it, as cruising speed is (fluffwise) very fast and it is quite hard to aim with weapons while also holding onto the vehicle. Maybe if the passengers had some kind of penalty if the transport moved at cruising speed.

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shamroll wrote:
Dang! I was hoping Tyranids followed the Pokemon naming idea. A big Carnifex running around just yelling "Carnifex! Carni-Carnifex!" followed by a squad of termagants all saying "Termagant" to each other.
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Radium
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PostSubject: Re: 40K and Shooting from Fast vehicles   Fri May 27 2011, 17:03

I like what you're trying to do - even though I think the rules are fine as is.
Anyhow, I would still make passengers count as moving as firing all those dark lances while moving 12" is way too good. And imagine what it would mean if you could move your trukks 12" and fire 12 Lootas? Or IG heavy weapon teams in chimeras moving 6 and firing? And if you are allowed to fire while moving at cruising speed, it should come at a price (say -1 BS or something).

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PostSubject: Re: 40K and Shooting from Fast vehicles   Fri May 27 2011, 17:07

Quote :
And if you are allowed to fire while moving at cruising speed, it should come at a price (say -1 BS or something).
Or something even harsher - only hitting on 6:s?

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shamroll wrote:
Dang! I was hoping Tyranids followed the Pokemon naming idea. A big Carnifex running around just yelling "Carnifex! Carni-Carnifex!" followed by a squad of termagants all saying "Termagant" to each other.
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PostSubject: Re: 40K and Shooting from Fast vehicles   Fri May 27 2011, 17:13

Although I dislike rules that don't hit each race equally that might work even better. And there are numerous other ways to decrease the damage output, like allowing only half of the unit to fire.

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PostSubject: Re: 40K and Shooting from Fast vehicles   Fri May 27 2011, 21:51

Radium wrote:
Although I dislike rules that don't hit each race equally that might work even better. And there are numerous other ways to decrease the damage output, like allowing only half of the unit to fire.

Half the unit might work!
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PostSubject: Re: 40K and Shooting from Fast vehicles   Fri May 27 2011, 22:39

Todo13 wrote:
Radium wrote:
Although I dislike rules that don't hit each race equally that might work even better. And there are numerous other ways to decrease the damage output, like allowing only half of the unit to fire.

Half the unit might work!

While hitting on 6 would be coherent with rules for assaulting (hit on 6 if moved +6") it indeed would hurt DE... and not so much Orks (we hit on 5+).
I think something else would be nice... I wouldn't like to nerf shooting tho.
Also "only half may shoot" would be kinda "meh", since it would not limit "special weapons" but only "regular weapons", which are just "regular", not "special" Wink



I don't know, maybe giving enemy ability to target unit inside OT within 3d6", but treating them as with 3+ cover (flamers covering 50% of tank auto hit whole squad, less don't burn at all. Blasts with hole over vehicle hit passangers)?

Todo13 wrote:
Radium wrote:
Although I dislike rules that don't hit each race equally that might work even better. And there are numerous other ways to decrease the damage output, like allowing only half of the unit to fire.

Half the unit might work!

While hitting on 6 would be coherent with rules for assaulting (hit on 6 if moved +6") it indeed would hurt DE... and not so much Orks (we hit on 5+, har...).
I think something else would be nice... I wouldn't like to nerf shooting tho (whole point is to make it better because most OT Fast vehicles seems to pay premium for... for... hmm... I guess Phill Kelly "get 5th ed" and value mobility too much).
Also "only half may shoot" would be kinda "meh", since it would not limit "special weapons" but only "regular weapons", which are just "regular", not "special", so nerfing them would be kinda pointless.

I don't know, maybe giving enemy ability to target unit inside OT within 3d6", but treating them as with 3+ cover (flamers covering 50% of tank auto hit whole squad, less don't burn at all. Blasts with hole over vehicle hit all passangers)?

Edited for doubleposting - it is preferable to edit the post if you want to add something. /mod

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PostSubject: Re: 40K and Shooting from Fast vehicles   Sat May 28 2011, 10:44

Radium wrote:
I like what you're trying to do - even though I think the rules are fine as is.
Anyhow, I would still make passengers count as moving as firing all those dark lances while moving 12" is way too good.
I feel the same way. I've grown accustomed to having to tactically choose between disembarking or not shooting, but at times it does seem like an unnecessary burden. So I am glad to see some interesting thought on how to properly find a middle ground.

I don't think he was letting embarked DLs to fire at 12" though, Radium. It sounds like you only a non-heavy weapon applies in that instance, such as a blaster. So to recap:
0-6" >> Fire all weapons
6.1-12" >> Fire all defensive weapons and a single primary, non-heavy weapon, vehicle ignores non-heavy restriction
12.1"+ >> Still no shooting while moving flat out

Now, the half squad shooting sounds interesting, but I think it can be gamed. Imagine I have a squad of Trueborn, 4 with blasters and 4 without. I can simply choose the four blasters to fire and I'm not losing much at all.

My alternative would be sort of the reverse of flat out. In that situation, you are gaining a cover save because it is difficult to hit a moving target. Well then it would seem logical that a unit trying to shoot at a target while themselves moving at high speed would also have to contend with a cover save. So in short, give any unit targeted by the embarked squad a 4+ cover save when they move at cruising speed (or perhaps 5+ cover, it might require playtesting).

And actually now that I think about it, that cover save should be granted even when the squad disembarks after moving at cruising speed.

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PostSubject: Re: 40K and Shooting from Fast vehicles   Sat May 28 2011, 14:37

This is right interpretation Krovin-Rezh.

Reverse "Flat out" is MOST CLEVER IDEA EVER... for puny spike-ear, yar.
However I think that +1 to cover (so "nothing" become 6+, 4+ is 3+ etc.) would be more useful (most unit can get 4+ so easy in this edition...)

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