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Burnage
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 17:40

It's up.

Trueborn and Bloodbrides are gone, Blasters and PGL on Archons are gone. Beastmasters are stuck with Agonisers.

Seems like the only Index survivor is Splinter Pistols on Haemonculi, although they're already in a weird spot rules-wise.
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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 18:10

didnt know the phantasm grenade launcher on the Archon was an index only choice lol ...
interesting enough i even took it in a tournament that didnt allow index units and no one noticed rofl
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 18:11

@DevilDoll wrote:
didnt know the phantasm grenade launcher on the Archon was an index only choice lol ...
interesting enough i even took it in a tournament that didnt allow index units and no one noticed rofl

B.c it was a core part of the modelf or years, GW is so stupid sometimes....

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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 18:17

@amishprn86 wrote:
@DevilDoll wrote:
didnt know the phantasm grenade launcher on the Archon was an index only choice lol ...
interesting enough i even took it in a tournament that didnt allow index units and no one noticed rofl

B.c it was a core part of the modelf or years, GW is so stupid sometimes....

its even ON the freaking model... isnt it supposed to be that pipe/spike thing on its back?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 18:46

@DevilDoll wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@DevilDoll wrote:
didnt know the phantasm grenade launcher on the Archon was an index only choice lol ...
interesting enough i even took it in a tournament that didnt allow index units and no one noticed rofl

B.c it was a core part of the modelf or years, GW is so stupid sometimes....

its even ON the freaking model... isnt it supposed to be that pipe/spike thing on its back?

Yes, but..... the new model doesnt have it. GW really frak up the new model in so many ways. Its a real slap in the face for us.

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Sarcron
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 19:06

I want to know why 1 extra attack is worth a 5 point increase on bloodbrides. They don't even get more wargear options like trueborn, they just have an extra attack.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 19:19

@Sarcron wrote:
I want to know why 1 extra attack is worth a 5 point increase on bloodbrides. They don't even get more wargear options like trueborn, they just have an extra attack.

It's not. They just reprinted whatever was in the index and called it a day.
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 19:41

@krayd wrote:
@Sarcron wrote:
I want to know why 1 extra attack is worth a 5 point increase on bloodbrides. They don't even get more wargear options like trueborn, they just have an extra attack.

It's not. They just reprinted whatever was in the index and called it a day.

no they have 3 attacks base
still garbage
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 20:02

So Archons lost the 2 things i wanted them for and Succubus kept everything, both being sold without the options. This is so stupid i'm 100% sure GW is just picking units that are not selling to frak over.

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 20:14

And with that, archons are useless junk now. They droped 15 points, but because of this, the should have dropped 45.
And NO.. that is not a joke.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 20:22

Apparently, the bonesinger is in CA2019 with an updated points cost.. but it's also in Legends with the old points cost. Not sure what is going on there, but GW is going to have to resolve it.
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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 20:32

@krayd wrote:
Apparently, the bonesinger is in CA2019 with an updated points cost.. but it's also in Legends with the old points cost. Not sure what is going on there, but GW is going to have to resolve it.

man they are steadily loosing it seriously...
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 20:49

they also missed a solid chunk from the nids codex
like winged warriors are not even in the legends document for example
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 20:53

Oh cool. I bid a fond farewell to the last remaining piece of useful wargear the Archon had left.

And even after the 15pt drop he's still more expensive than the vastly-better Canoness.

Could the entire GW design team kindly go get sodomised by a field of cacti?

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Gherma
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 21:02

Right now, the only archon build that still makes sense is BH with the writ. For 57 points is good.

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 22:01

@Gherma wrote:
Right now, the only archon build that still makes sense is BH with the writ. For 57 points is good.


Your version of "good" and the rest of the warhammer playing world's version of "good" differ greatly.

So lets see. Take a model over 50 points and use your relic on him, making him be in the warlords detachment. so no vexator mask, no eternal hatred, etc.
3 ravagers clumped around a model that can move 8".
no more fire and fade since the PGL was taken from him.
he can advance 1-6" so the most 4 models in your army can move in a giant, tempting meaty clump is 6-14".

And this is GOOD?

We just got boned and boned hard.

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Gherma
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 22:15

Well, I am personally not a fan of the BH archon with writ and I was not used to play it, but it is worldwide the most common build between dark Eldar competitive players. Archon + 3 Ravagers is also a common allied detachment for other Eldar, so or 90% of competitive players are stupid or it is indeed good.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 22:48

@Gherma wrote:
Well, I am personally not a fan of the BH archon with writ and I was not used to play it, but it is worldwide the most common build between dark Eldar competitive players.  Archon + 3 Ravagers is also a common allied detachment for other Eldar, so or 90% of competitive players are stupid or it is indeed good.

It's not good. It's the sole HQ we can take to have ravagers. We could replace the archon with a 1A, 1W, zero gun, as long it can still move we would still take it.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 22:53

@Skulnbon: Mmm nope, those are false absolutisms.Or, well, that is how a beginner will play that spearhead. I'll get some points about it:
1) You have to make him your warlord. False. You don't have it. You can, and that grants to you Alliance of Agony. If you do that, for 1 CP you can give a warlord trait to 1 Succubus and 1 Haemonculus. Usually, that means give the PoF trait onto Urien/Haemi for +D3 CP. You spend 1 CP for gaining D3, it is a good gamble isn't it? So it doesn't preclude other traits.
BUT even if the CP Farm is amazing, you can give him Hatred Eternal as well (yes, no jokes, I'll cover that later). And most of it, you can left him without WL trait, spend 1CP (or promote that Drazhar into the same detatchment as your warlord) and bring him the Writ anyway.
Nothing is mandatory. Once you got your Archon and yours 3 Ravager, promote who you want as your warlord, play with stratagems and detatchment combinations, do what you want. Honestly, you can even bring Urien as your Warlord, take the Vex mask for the second Haemi and take the Writ with 1 CP.
Or, tricky one, you can play Alliance of Agony even on an Ynnari Archon Warlord.
So no, you don't have to make him warlord. It's not mandatory;
2) You need to keep Ravagers within 6*, FALSE. You can do...you don't have to. Besides, even without Fire&Fade, you'll advance of 10"-11" usually (even more from the second turn)+6" of range+the entire long body of the Ravager itself. You don't have to DEPLOY your Ravagers within 6" from him, you just need them in range after the movement phase. That grants you a lot of freedom.
But most of it, you "don't have to benefit from rerolls". It's not mandatory. If you need to advance, then advance. If you look the game and guess that spreading your boats will be better, then do that! Against Tau I usually charge with them. Because they're 10 Wounds with 4+/5++/6+++ at T6 (while Raiders have T5) which is good against S5 shots. Against melee army it happened that I had to use one or more Rava just for screening. They're not guns, they're boats with guns. Use the boat-part too, consider their body.
The bubble range is quite nice, but it's far from being mandatory. You need to adapt between games, don't play them in the same way all the time.
3) In the same way, your Archon is not asked to stay back all the time. Usually I always charge with my babysitting Archon. I can't remember a single game where he hasn't fight almost once. I agree with you that 72 points for babysitting are not good. That's why I usually buy him Huskblade anyway, and I move him on combat. He's good con countercharges, or even at charge if you're advancing with your Ravas.
Remember that the Writ works i combat too.
People who complain about Archons usually it's because they keep sleeping on it (like, keeping them back all the time doing nothing, for example...they don't get that for 61 points we have an amazing melee char, if you send him properly).

So that comp.is good because it is cheap, it brings a lot of good stuff, and most of it it grants you a lot more than just shooting power, if you use it well. It has a cost/value ratio that is one of the best in the game when you get the points up here.




Anyway it's not mandatory by itself. Like Skari, I'm finding Flayed Skull pretty good, and bring Ravagers in the Battallion makes avaible a third detatchment, which is gold. Besides, deny cover right now is perfectly in meta against all those Eliminators/Stealthy untis (heck, a stealth Centurion will save at 4+ against a BH Rava...that's huge).
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 23:40

Yes, I am quite aware how alliance of agony works, etc. I am talking about competitive lists.
Spending command points for relics in my opinion is wasteful unless necessary. The relic DOES have to come from your warlords detachment, as I stated. I never said HE had to be the warlord, just he had to be in the detachment, which is then forced to be black heart.
All of this... all of what you said above about alliance of agony, advancing, etc...

is it worth it? If you advance your archon to keep up with the ravagers you are paying 57 points for what? A scroll caddy. (or writ caddy).
He cant shoot
he cant charge
He is a gimped, overpriced character at best.

No matter how you slice it, this was a big kick in the ol gribblies to our kabal detachments.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 05 2019, 00:10

The Black Heart Archon is fine. 57 points for rerolling hit and wound rolls of 1 is pretty damn good, all things considered. Most (all?) of the recent DE lists that have placed highly using the Black Heart Spearhead just used the Splinter Pistol/Venom Blade loadout, so this isn't a loss in that sense.

That it's now the only viable build for an Archon is seriously crap.
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Serpent Fly
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 05 2019, 07:24

Disappointed at loss of options of course. Flicking through the 5th ed codex yesterday where it talks about how the whole range is kitbashable and encourages conversions (with lots of examples on Archons). But alas GW sometimes has no consistency about what is okay to convert and what is not, looking at you succubus.

That said, I feel better that is was paired with a points drop. I don't agree that a Ravager babysitter is useless. Sure they are just a buff candy turn 1, 2 and 3. But by turn 4 your ravagers are probably shot to pieces and with the natural movement of the game your Archon can usually find a good target to charge or objective to hold.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 05 2019, 13:35

5th was a golden age for us. If the missions and vehicles rules were better i would most likely be playing that right now over 8th. I really dont like 8th or what they are doing during 8th.

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Void Prince
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 05 2019, 16:38

"Blasters and PGL on Archons are gone"

Ok, at the chance of looking at bit dim does not page 5 of the PDF/document give the Archon the option of PGL/Blaster? Or am I having a really bad day at the office?
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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: Warhammer Legends   Warhammer Legends I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 05 2019, 16:55

@Void Prince wrote:
"Blasters and PGL on Archons are gone"

Ok, at the chance of looking at bit dim does not page 5 of the PDF/document give the Archon the option of PGL/Blaster? Or am I having a really bad day at the office?

Only if your opponent agrees on using Legends casually. If playing in a tournament, the TO allows Legends to be played. Check out Warhammer Community page for the link to the Legends PDFs.
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