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yellabelly
Sybarite
yellabelly

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Join date : 2017-11-16

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2019, 12:42

Thing is, the net doesn't give the fall back ability. The Wyches have that anyway. It only enhances it. Personally I don't think the shardnet is worth double what hydra gauntlets cost. You can wrap, and if you can't wrap they still have to roll off. Shardnet just gives D6 Vs D3.

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amishprn86
Archon
amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2019, 14:01

Its 1 super good character that you REALLY want to fallback from tho, WS are amazing with their characters, its one of the reasons why they are a top tier army right now.

Anyways we have lots of 2D, even shooting 2D so why is melee 2D so much more costly? GW for some reason makes melee dominate units more costly than shooting even tho shooting is much stronger.

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Burnage
Hekatrix
Burnage

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2019, 14:05

At the end of the day, is +1 attack, -1AP, D2, and improving an innate ability worth 8 points? Probably, yeah. That's a really good statline and it's still probably the best Wych weapon - Hydra Gauntlets look a bit more attractive now, but only D1 and losing the utility of the improved No Escape hurts a bit.
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Cerve
Wych
Cerve

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2019, 14:32

Because melee is much stronger than shooting, if you learn how to engage.

Guys, the 8th is a melee.edition, not a shooting one
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velaresh
Hellion
velaresh

Posts : 30
Join date : 2019-04-28

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2019, 15:11

@Cerve wrote:
Because melee is much stronger than shooting, if you learn how to engage.

Guys, the 8th is a melee.edition, not a shooting one


I agree, but the shotting phase is easier to master, the combat phase is much powerful against enemies that cannot fly or marines-pre shock assault now marines figth very well. In several games catching an enemy unit in the combat phase, I made it impossible to shoot characters behind, because the unit of witches or motorcycles was the closest to the enemy.
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Burnage
Hekatrix
Burnage

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2019, 15:25

Melee has more tricks to learn, but shooting is vastly more powerful in this edition. Just look at the history of what the top tier armies have been over the course of the 8th edition - they're virtually all ranged, with very few exceptions like Ynnari Shining Spears (and even they usually had Dark Reaper support).
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Skulnbonz
Wych
Skulnbonz

Posts : 780
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Location : Tampa

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2019, 15:45

@Cerve wrote:


Guys, the 8th is a melee.edition, not a shooting one

I disagree 100%

Melee can be effective, but it normally takes a few steps to get off the ground correctly. Some armies, like Tau, will remove you from the board before you finish setting up for your assault.

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amishprn86
Archon
amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2019, 16:05

@Cerve wrote:
Because melee is much stronger than shooting, if you learn how to engage.

Guys, the 8th is a melee.edition, not a shooting one

Completely disagree, with fallbacks, more powerful OW, with + to hits and re-rolls to hits and to wounds, with Shoot when you die, shooting twice for 1 or 2cp compare to melee twice for 3CP, and you are attacked back on your turn in melee if you dont wipe the unit. Its 100% a shooting edition.

Also witht he strongest shooting units in the game having fly, you cant stop them from falling back, others can ignore LoS and stand being 40 4++/5+++ units that literally dont care if you charge them.

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velaresh
Hellion
velaresh

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2019, 17:23

Figth fase well played can nullify the enemy army. My last game vs tau ,charge riptide and broadside with talos after sucubus with shardnet engage this tau unis , goodbye shotting face for the tau player ,other game vs admech the same situation i play a venonspam of flayedskull and custom wytch cult ,sucubus engage vehicles and the venoms fly arround destroying infantry and melee units.
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Cerve
Wych
Cerve

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2019, 18:17

I advise to watch some.tip and trick about charging, consolidating and melee in general on youtube., because where shooting is just rolling dice, melee tricks do basically two things:
-Deny the shooting of your opponent;
-Makes your army Invulnerable against his shooting.

The Oppo can even shoot the fires of hell, but if he physically can't choose you because you're untargetable, well...

Guys, I'll say it again: 8th at high levels is a melee game. Not a shooting one.

For example, just a tip: 1) pinch an enemy unit that cannot fly (and I mean everyone, even 10.Guards, you don't even need to charge them directly); 2) put your units whithin 1" from that enemy unit; 3) Any unit you'll put will be invulnerable from.enemy shooting. Then disengage, shoot, and repeat.
Remember something like:
-You have other ways than charge to bring your units within 1" from the enemy;
-Every unit is equiped.with a S-model AP- D1 melee weapon;
-Sometime we think too much about blocking enemy units, and less about making themselves intargetable to them;
-Charge doesn't mean kill;
-During consolidations/pile-ins you have to end yourself more near to the enemy than before. You don't have to move 3" DIRECTLY onto the enemy;
-When you charge, pile-in, consolidate, you don't have to touch the enemy base;
-You can wrap characters with a friendly unit who is already/is going in melee;
...

Beside dice, this is a chess game while moving brings you the situation to put your units into intargetable/invulnerable zones. Keep that in mind.
Shooting it's just a tool.
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AzraeI
Sybarite
AzraeI

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2019, 19:26

And then you play against triptide shield drone spame tau and nothing you said matters
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Gherma
Kabalite Warrior
Gherma

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2019, 19:29

I disagree too. This is probably the most shooty edition of them all.

All top armies in this edition have been shooty, and this is not an opinion, is a statistic. I’m thinking to Tau, Eldar Flyers, IF/IH, imperial soup with Castellan/Crusaders, etc.

Every good army has ways to avoid being tagged, via flying models (Eldar, Tau Suits) or bubble wrapping (imperials in general, Tau drones, orks) or can overwatch very well (Tau, Ultramarines).

It is true that knowing how to do proper close combat adds a level of depth and can be very good against newbies, but every good player or army will simply stop you from charging or tagging key unit.

At least this is my experience as a London based player who took part to almost all major tournaments around here this year. Maybe somewhere else in the world bubble wrapping is not a thing.

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Skulnbonz
Wych
Skulnbonz

Posts : 780
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Location : Tampa

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2019, 20:12

@velaresh wrote:
i play a venonspam of flayedskull and custom wytch cult ,sucubus engage vehicles and the venoms fly arround destroying infantry and melee units.

So what you are saying is that you use mobility and guns to deny your opponents fight phase by keeping out of their reach and flying away to shoot them if they try to tie you up.

Thank you for making my point for me.

Oh, and if you charge a succubus in first against a tau gunline, I am gonna call BS if you say she makes it in alive.

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velaresh
Hellion
velaresh

Posts : 30
Join date : 2019-04-28

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2019, 20:37

@Skulnbonz wrote:
@velaresh wrote:
i play a venonspam of flayedskull and custom wytch cult ,sucubus engage vehicles and the venoms fly arround destroying infantry and melee units.

So what you are saying is that you use mobility and guns to deny your opponents fight phase by keeping out of their reach and flying away to shoot them if they try to tie you up.

Thank you for making my point for me.

Oh, and if you charge a succubus in first against a tau gunline, I am gonna call BS if you say she makes it in alive.

it's not that simple, if it weren't for some well-attacked assaults and units trapped by the witches, I couldn't shoot because the enemy would destroy me by shooting. Shardnet are very good for
catch flying units like battlesuits or jetbikes.
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Burnage
Hekatrix
Burnage

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2019, 21:28

@velaresh wrote:
@Skulnbonz wrote:
@velaresh wrote:
i play a venonspam of flayedskull and custom wytch cult ,sucubus engage vehicles and the venoms fly arround destroying infantry and melee units.

So what you are saying is that you use mobility and guns to deny your opponents fight phase by keeping out of their reach and flying away to shoot them if they try to tie you up.

Thank you for making my point for me.

Oh, and if you charge a succubus in first against a tau gunline, I am gonna call BS if you say she makes it in alive.

it's not that simple, if it weren't for some well-attacked assaults and units trapped by the witches, I couldn't shoot because the enemy would destroy me by shooting. Shardnet are very good for
catch flying units like battlesuits or jetbikes.

Shardnets don't work on units like Battlesuits or Jetbikes. No Escape only applies to INFANTRY, and they're MONSTERS or BIKERS.
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velaresh
Hellion
velaresh

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2019, 21:52

@Burnage wrote:
@velaresh wrote:
@Skulnbonz wrote:
@velaresh wrote:
i play a venonspam of flayedskull and custom wytch cult ,sucubus engage vehicles and the venoms fly arround destroying infantry and melee units.

So what you are saying is that you use mobility and guns to deny your opponents fight phase by keeping out of their reach and flying away to shoot them if they try to tie you up.

Thank you for making my point for me.

Oh, and if you charge a succubus in first against a tau gunline, I am gonna call BS if you say she makes it in alive.

it's not that simple, if it weren't for some well-attacked assaults and units trapped by the witches, I couldn't shoot because the enemy would destroy me by shooting. Shardnet are very good for
catch flying units like battlesuits or jetbikes.

Shardnets don't work on units like Battlesuits or Jetbikes. No Escape only applies to INFANTRY, and they're MONSTERS or BIKERS.


As Homer said "it is my first day". Hahah I played 3 games with the venom spam and the witches and I found them super strong by shardnet, I was wrong.
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Cerve
Wych
Cerve

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2019, 23:00

@Azrael: Tau has Firewarriors. Use them against him.


About big tournaments, that's not a surprise. Playing around melee and positioning is extremely difficult, and when you're spending a lot of money, maybe taking even a plane, going there to play at a big event for two days (and we all know how much you will sleep in those days Wink )...bring a difficult chess-like list it's probably the last thing you will do. Shooting is super easy, and easy armies is what you want to play on those events. Seriously, 9 planes? 17 CenturionsRG+IF Thunderfires? Superboring IronHands? Guys...these lists are extremely simple to play, and of course you're bringing them on such an important event. Heck I love playing Wyches and playing on melee but even I would find myself more comfy with Prophets of the Flesh in such tournaments The endurance between those days of fire is something that you have to count.

Just for lolz, if I have to bring numbers in this: I'm saying that instead of taking a list who brings to you 10 but expect a level skill of 10, you feel more safe taking a list of 8 that requires a skill of 6. A lot of lists that you see copypasted are the last category. Then sometimes you see a Tyr+Gsc taking a 1st place and THAT'S the kind of player you should study.

Shooting is easy and strong. Engaging correctly in melee is difficult and more strong.
But usually, "strong" is just enogh. That's my tought.
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AzraeI
Sybarite
AzraeI

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2019, 23:16

@Cerve wrote:
@Azrael: Tau has Firewarriors. Use them against him.

I play tau and i know that fire warriors get easily tagged and kept in cc but thats the reason why the winning tau lists have around 15 fire warriors in three units max
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Burnage
Hekatrix
Burnage

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2019, 23:33

@Cerve wrote:
@Azrael: Tau has Firewarriors. Use them against him.


About big tournaments, that's not a surprise. Playing around melee and positioning is extremely difficult, and when you're spending a lot of money, maybe taking even a plane, going there to play at a big event for two days (and we all know how much you will sleep in those days Wink )...bring a difficult chess-like list it's probably the last thing you will do. Shooting is super easy, and easy armies is what you want to play on those events. Seriously, 9 planes? 17 CenturionsRG+IF Thunderfires? Superboring IronHands? Guys...these lists are extremely simple to play, and of course you're bringing them on such an important event. Heck I love playing Wyches and playing on melee but even I would find myself more comfy with Prophets of the Flesh in such tournaments The endurance between those days of fire is something that you have to count.

Just for lolz, if I have to bring numbers in this: I'm saying that instead of taking a list who brings to you 10 but expect a level skill of 10, you feel more safe taking a list of 8 that requires a skill of 6. A lot of lists that you see copypasted are the last category. Then sometimes you see a Tyr+Gsc taking a 1st place and THAT'S the kind of player you should study.

Shooting is easy and strong. Engaging correctly in melee is difficult and more strong.
But usually, "strong" is just enogh. That's my tought.

If melee was stronger you'd absolutely see some players running and dominating with it, even with the required skill disparity that you're suggesting here. The extra boost would be worth it and there would be some players who did have substantially greater skills than their opponents in order to outplay their simpler to run lists.

The one example of a player like that is probably Sean Nayden, but even he doesn't win tournaments overall.
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velaresh
Hellion
velaresh

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 11:18

With the CA points changes, how do you think your lists will change? I feel that codex is not better or drastically worse.

Less black heart or prophets of the flesh?I will not stop playing black heart for agents.

More razorwings with a taste of skill?
reaver jetbikes?
mandrakes? They were already decent.
Incubos? With the descent of draining and the unit is possible some list.

Darktechnomancers in venom spams, raiders and talos? Now when I compare hayware talos vs scourges, by 6 points of difference I stay with the talos. More damage, more resilence and good in assault. I was already playing more mandrakes than scourges.
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Soulless Samurai
Hekatrix
Soulless Samurai

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 11:34

@velaresh wrote:
With the CA points changes, how do you think your lists will change? I feel that codex is not better or drastically worse.

I suspect I'll be abandoning 2000pt games as they already take too long.

Other than that, I can't see myself making any major changes.

- Ravagers and Razorwings are more expensive but there's basically nothing else that fulfils their role so they'll still be taken.

- Incubi and Drazhar are down a bit but they've never been my thing, especially en masse. Maybe I'll use the 5 Incubi models I actually own. Maybe.

- Cronos is down very slightly but still serves no real purpose - especially compared with the Talos.

- Hellions are down in points but still awful.

- Archons are marginally less of a tax.

- Maybe Reavers will be worth trying again?

Honestly, if anything I'm more interested in the point drops for Harlequins than anything in our own codex.

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Gelmir
Hellion
Gelmir

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 11:43

Let me jump on the derailed train here and give my 5 cents about this melee vs shooting thing...
I think shooting is good, and mostly easy. Melee is a "high risk, high reward" kind of thing. When done successfully, it can be really strong. But you have to worry about staying in cover until you reach your opponent, about overwatch, about what happens after you kill your enemy unit in melee so you don't become target practice.
Shooting is what you use to punish your opponent for the mistakes he made with his melee tactics.
I'm not sure one can really be defined as definitely better than the other, since they're part of the same thing. I have never seen a game where people were just shooting at each others gun lines until only one left standing. I have never seen a game where people ignored shooting and simply only charged into each other either. One of those would be the case if either shooting or melee was better than the other.

Now back to the topic...

I may be a weird one here, but I never liked the Ravager model. It doesn't have the slender dark elegance of a Raider or Reaper because of the guns on the sides. So despite that they were always very competitive, I don't have any.
Now I can finally actually feel less bad about it and just use Raiders and a Reaper. Razz Big chance that with the rumored point changes, my list just becomes cheaper so I can add an extra unit. :3
Granted, my meta is definitely different than any of yours, because I actually NEVER play against any imperium stuff. Mostly Tyranids, Chaos Deamons and sometimes Tau and Craftworld.

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Lord Asvaldir
Hekatrix
Lord Asvaldir

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 15:19

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@velaresh wrote:
With the CA points changes, how do you think your lists will change? I feel that codex is not better or drastically worse.

I suspect I'll be abandoning 2000pt games as they already take too long.

Other than that, I can't see myself making any major changes.

- Ravagers and Razorwings are more expensive but there's basically nothing else that fulfils their role so they'll still be taken.

- Incubi and Drazhar are down a bit but they've never been my thing, especially en masse. Maybe I'll use the 5 Incubi models I actually own. Maybe.

- Cronos is down very slightly but still serves no real purpose - especially compared with the Talos.

- Hellions are down in points but still awful.

- Archons are marginally less of a tax.

- Maybe Reavers will be worth trying again?

Honestly, if anything I'm more interested in the point drops for Harlequins than anything in our own codex.

Reavers are the one unit I think are worth taking a second look at. 16pts/m is pretty good for a jetbike, and I've already liked using them at their old cost with test of skill/slashing impact obsessions so they actually pack a punch, unlike the red grief reavers. Throw a blaster or heat lance on them and they look a lot more appealing in big units.

14 for incubi is also pretty reasonable, they still suffer from being only s4 1 damage, but for me taking incubi has always just been because I love the models, now it's just a little cheaper to do so.

Maybe I'll give the cronos a shot, it seems half decent with dark technomancers. Even with a 5pts drop though, idk. Hellions yeah their issues at much bigger than just their pts cost so that wasn't going to change.

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Burnage
Hekatrix
Burnage

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 15:24

I can see Cronos having a role just for board control, especially in ITC. 180 points for a unit with T6, 21 wounds and a 3+/5++/6+++ is pretty damn good.
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amishprn86
Archon
amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors   Chapter Approved Rumors - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2019, 16:23

@Burnage wrote:
I can see Cronos having a role just for board control, especially in ITC. 180 points for a unit with T6, 21 wounds and a 3+/5++/6+++ is pretty damn good.

And in ITC once they kill that unit its full 4 secondary points and then maybe a kill more that turn.

For a unit thatso easily i'd rather just spend the extra points and get a unit that will kill instead so i can trade VP's like Talos.

Now for CA missions, heck yeah!

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