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AlCorps
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PostSubject: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 12 2019, 20:58

I'm crunching the numbers on some of the new possible combinations, and comparing them to existing options.
This is purely for damage output points efficiency; special rules, tactics, and toughness are not taken into account

First up is the new anti-tank options, comparing Black Heart Writ Ravagers, Dark Technomancer Raiders, and Wych Test of Skill Razorwings.
I've tried to take roughly equal points cost of each unit. The Razorwings also have an extra row for missiles, add the last two rows to get the total damage output. I didn't include the twin splinter rifle, as I am lazy.

Marine
UnitWeaponShotsHitsWoundsUnsavedDamage
3 BH RavagerDisintegrators272116.3313.6113.61
5 Techno RaiderDisintegrators15108.336.946.94
3 Wych RazorwingDisintegrators181286.666.66
3 Wych RazorwingNecrotoxin1812103.333.33

Primaris
UnitWeaponShotsHitsWoundsUnsavedDamage
3 BH RavagerDisintegrators272116.3313.6127.22
5 Techno RaiderDisintegrators15108.336.9413.88
3 Wych RazorwingDisintegrators181286.6613.33
3 Wych RazorwingNecrotoxin1812103.333.33

Rhino
UnitWeaponShotsHitsWoundsUnsavedDamage
3 BH RavagerDisintegrators27218.166.80513.61
5 Techno RaiderDisintegrators151054.1612.5
3 Wych RazorwingDisintegrators18126510
3 Wych RazorwingShatterfield10.576.223.113.11

Imperial Knight 5++
UnitWeaponShotsHitsWoundsUnsavedDamage
3 BH RavagerDisintegrators27218.165.4410.88
5 Techno RaiderDisintegrators151053.3310
3 Wych RazorwingDisintegrators1812648
3 Wych RazorwingShatterfield10.575.252.6252.625


So the Black Heart Ravagers are still king, but the other two options are very close behind when shooting tanks.
The Wych Cult Flyer Wing looks like a good option to take along with with the Black Heart Ravagers, if you were already running a mech army.
The Coven raiders are an interesting choice, I wasn't expecting them to be so close to regular anti-tank units. However the cost of the unit which goes inside is not taken into account, so you need to have a plan for all those other coven units.


Next I'm going to take a look at Dark Technomancer Haywire Talos vs Harlequin Skyweavers. Also down the line is the various types of Venoms, though the extra combinations makes this one a bit tricky  Twisted Evil
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AlCorps
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 12 2019, 21:26

Up next is Talos vs Skyweavers.
This is just the haywire weapons shooting. All dice rolls have been averaged, so D3=2, and D6=3.5

Marine
UnitWeaponShotsHitsWoundsUnsaved
3 PoF TalosHaywire Blaster12631.5
3 Techno TalosHaywire Blaster12642
6 SkyweaverHaywire Cannon211473.5

Rhino
UnitWeaponShotsHitsWoundsUnsaved1 HaywireD3 HaywireDamage
3 PoF TalosHaywire Blaster12621215
3 Techno TalosHaywire Blaster12631.5229
6 SkyweaverHaywire Cannon21144.662.334.662.3311.66

Imperial Knight 5++
UnitWeaponShotsHitsWoundsUnsaved1 HaywireD3 HaywireDamage
3 PoF TalosHaywire Blaster12610.5214.5
3 Techno TalosHaywire Blaster12621228
6 SkyweaverHaywire Cannon21142.331.164.662.3310.5
The Skyweavers are still the best at shooting by a long way. The new Techno Talos (TM) are a big improvement on regular Talos shooting, but will not be as tough. You will have to decide for yourself if you need the PoF 4++ or want the extra damage output.


Last edited by AlCorps on Sun Oct 13 2019, 00:26; edited 1 time in total
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Rodi Sikni
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 12 2019, 22:58

I think that the techno talos are wrong, seems that you have forgotten the +1D

Results of the wound rolls against a Rhino:
1- Missed
2- Missed
3- Mortal wound
4- Hit -1AP D2+ Mortal wound
5- Hit -1AP D2+ D3Mortal wound (2MW)
6- Hit -1AP D2+ D3Mortal wound (2MW)

Total 6 MW and 3D (3  Ap-1 D2 vs s4+)=  9 damage

Results of the wound rolls against a IK:
1-Missed
2- Missed
3- Mortal wound
4- Mortal wound
5- Hit -1AP D2+ D3Mortal wound (2MW)
6- Hit -1AP D2+ D3Mortal wound (2MW)

Total 6 MW and 2D (2  Ap-1 D2 vs s4+)= 8 damage
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AlCorps
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 00:24

@Rodi Sikni wrote:
I think that the techno talos are wrong, seems that you have forgotten the +1D
You're quite right, fixed above
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 01:24

We all know DL ravagers are not as good, but you should do the math for them real quick to see how well  they can do now and if they are better than BH or not for those that still plays them.

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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 15:48

Can someone do 6 units of 10 kabalite warriors using Toxin Crafters obsession in 6 raiders with splinter racks and disintergrators. I have mathhammer app on my phone but i seem to be getting conflicting results compared to mathhammer calculators online.

This would basically be 120 shots within 12', and 18 disintegrator shots. Hit rolls of 6 are two auto hits rather than 1 and wounds of 6 would cause 2 damage for poison weapons.

If you could somehow get a Archon in there you would be re-rolling 1's to hit. I'd like to know how much damage this is doing to Space Marines/Primaris Marines
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 21:29

@Elfric wrote:

If you could somehow get a Archon in there you would be re-rolling 1's to hit. I'd like to know how much damage this is doing to Space Marines/Primaris Marines

Only if everyone is on foot, which means you aren't getting the Splinter Rack bonus. I'd like to see a straight comparison between them and Flayed Skull's rerolls though.
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 14 2019, 00:38

Venoms
Included is a venom from each possible (useful) combination.
Flayed Skull, Poison Tongue, Black Heart with Writ, Toxin Crafters, and a combination of the 3 new Coven obsessions: Dark Technomancers, Experimental Creations, Masters of Mutagens
I've also included a column for the kabalite factions when a venom has 5 warriors on board. This gives them an unfair advantage over coven, but is a much more likely use case.
The math on these was quite messy, please do have a look to make sure everything adds up.

NOTE:
I'm going to edit this post to add the full tables as I write them, please be patient.

The Winners
This is split into 1W and 2W lists. The criteria was a marine in cover, so 2+ save, 3+ for flayed skull, and an extra flayed skull against a 2+ armour save.
This order could change with other armour saves, but since marines are the all the rage these days, I've chosen them as the target.

For 1W models

  1. Flayed Skull /w 5 warriors ignoring cover
  2. Black Heart /w 5 warriors
  3. Flayed Skull /w 5 warriors
  4. Flayed Skull ignoring cover
  5. Poison Tongue /w 5 warriors
  6. Toxin Crafters /5 warriors
  7. Techno Experimental
  8. Techno Mutagen
  9. Experimental Mutagen
  10. Black Heart
  11. Flayed Skull
  12. Poison Tongue
  13. Toxin Crafters


For 2W models

  1. Flayed Skull /w 5 warriors ignoring cover
  2. Techno Experimental
  3. Techno Mutagen
  4. Toxin Crafters /5 warriors
  5. Black Heart /w 5 warriors
  6. Flayed Skull /w 5 warriors
  7. Flayed Skull ignoring cover
  8. Poison Tongue /w 5 warriors
  9. Experimental Mutagen
  10. Black Heart
  11. Toxin Crafters
  12. Flayed Skull
  13. Poison Tongue


Conclusion
Flayed Skulls ability to ignore cover is huge on a 3+ save.
Obviously, venoms with 5 warriors inside perform better than coven.
Black Heart looks good at first due to the Writ rerolls, but is not a common set up.

Just looking at the venom and not the passengers, the new coven obsessions perform very well.
Against 2W targets, Dark Technomancy Coven and Toxin Crafters Kabal do much better. The empty Coven venoms even outperform Kabals with the extra warriors inside.

If you're not sure what to pick, maybe just stick with Flayed Skull.
If you expect to face a lot of primaris or monsters, seriously consider the new Coven options.

1W, 2+ save
UnitShotsHitsNormal Hits6's to HitWoundsUnsavedDamageVenom plus 5 Warriors
Flayed Skull107.773.8880.6480.6481.296
Poison Tongue106.6663.8880.6480.6481.296
Black Heart107.7774.5370.7560.7561.311
Toxin Crafters106.6663.3330.5550.5551.111
Techno Experimental106.6665.5550.9250.925
Techno Mutagen106.66651.66650.8330.833
Experimental Mutagen106.66651.66650.8330.833

3+ 1W
UnitShotsHitsNormal Hits6's to HitWoundsUnsavedDamageVenom plus 5 Warriors
Flayed Skull107.7773.8881.2961.2962.592
Poison Tongue106.6663.8881.2961.2962.592
Black Heart Venom107.7774.5371.5121.5122.623
Toxin Crafters106.6663.3331.1111.1112.222
Techno Experimental106.6665.5551.8511.851
Techno Mutagen106.66651.66651.6661.666
Experimental Mutagen106.66651.66651.6661.666

2+ 2W
UnitShotsHitsNormal Hits6's to hitNormal WoundsExtra D WoundsNormal UnsavedExtra D UnsavedTotal DamageTransport plus passengers
Flayed Skull107.7773.8880.6480.6481.296
Poison Tongue106.6663.8880.6480.6481.296
Black Heart107.7774.5370.7560.7561.311
Toxin Craft106.6662.2221.1110.3700.1850.7401.481
Techno Experimental106.6665.5550.9251.851
Techno Mutagen106.66651.66650.8331.666
Experimental Mutagen106.66651.66650.8330.833

3+ 2W
UnitShotsHitsNormal Hits6's to hitNormal WoundsExtra D WoundsNormal UnsavedExtra D UnsavedTotal DamageTransport plus passengers
Flayed Skull107.7773.8881.2961.2962.592
Poison Tongue106.6663.8881.2961.2962.592
Black Heart107.7774.5371.5121.5122.623
Toxin Craft106.6662.2221.1110.7400.3701.4812.962
Techno Experimental106.6665.5551.8513.703
Techno Mutagen106.66651.66651.6663.333
Experimental Mutagen106.66651.66651.6661.666


Next requests have been:
- Dark Lances
- Warriors in Splinter Rack raiders


Last edited by AlCorps on Mon Oct 14 2019, 19:57; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 14 2019, 10:54

I've been doing some comparison of Dark Technomancers with Experimental Creations vs Master of Mutagens, hence for EC and MoM. I'm assuming they have access to a Haemie aura (giving EC a boost vs T5) and I'm considering several things, firstly probability of mortal wounds, secondly damage output versus various targets.

First, let's look at the probability of causing mortal wounds to oneself when using a Venom against an organic target.

TraitNo Mortal WoundsOne Mortal WoundTwo Mortal WoundsAv. turns to Self Destruct
EC24.3%50.0%25.7%6 turns
MoM35.2%48.3%16.5%7 turns

The risks are significantly reduced with MoM, making no damage far more likely than 2, whilst they are about the same probability for EC. The probability of taking any damage at all also drops significantly with MoM. Both are likely to last out the average game if left alone, but EC venoms are going to be softer targets for your opponents' guns.

Next, I'm going to look at damage output against various organic targets (it's the same vs vehicles). I'm not concerned with saving throws here, as they affect both equally, so I'm going to be looking at wounds caused, these are all 2 damage in both cases, so again that isn't taken into consideration.

TraitTarget ToughnessAverage Wounds Per Venom
EC<66.7
MoM<66
EC>55.3
MoM>56

My conclusion is that EC venoms are better at softer targets, whilst MoM are better against harder targets. EC Venoms will die faster and perform marginally better against Primaris, Deathguard, Guardsman, Firewarriors, Drones and similar, whilst MoM will survive better and perform slightly better against, Hive Tyrants, Demon Princes, Riptides, Primarchs and such. They perform the same against all vehicles except sentinels and other venoms (were EC has an edge).
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 14 2019, 17:30

New Wych Obsessions
These yielded some surprising results, the new abilities deal quite a lot of damage if you can deliver the wyches.

The test case is 20 wyches charging, using Strife and Cursed Blade, and a combination of Berserk Fugue, Precise Killers, Slashing Impact, and Test of Skill.
Each one also has a +A drug and +S drug line.
I've limited Slashing Impact to only 15 wyches within 1", instead of all 20, in an attempt to more closely resemble how the charge would actually go.

The Winners
Slashing Impact is the big winner here, especially against high toughness high armour targets.
The mortal wounds make up almost half the damage done to marines and plaguebearers, and over half the damage done to Mortarion.
Berserk Fugue is the best of the rest, just about able to keep up with the stable Strife and Cursed Blade, and pulling way ahead when paired with Slashing Impact.
Test of Skill helps a bit with Mortation, but again it's the mortal wounds doing the real damage.

Guardsman (t3, 5+)
TypeDrugAttacksHitsNormal WoundsWounds 6+Unsaved15 Extra MortalsTotal
Strife`+A10066.66633.33322.22222.222
Strife`+S8053.33335.55523.70323.703
Cursed`+A8053.33335.55523.70323.703
Cursed`+S604026.66617.77717.777
Beserk + Slashing`+A8066.66633.33322.222527.222
Beserk + Slashing`+S605033.33322.2222527.222
Precise + Slashing`+A8053.33317.7778.88819.259524.259
Precise + Slashing`+S6040206.66618.888523.888

Marine (t4, 3+)
TypeDrugAttacksHitsNormal WoundsWounds 6+Unsaved15 Extra MortalsTotal
Strife`+A10066.66622.2227.4077.407
Strife`+S8053.33326.6668.8888.888
Cursed`+A8053.33326.6668.8888.888
Cursed`+S604026.6668.8888.888
Beserk + Slashing`+A8066.66622.2227.407512.407
Beserk + Slashing`+S6050258.333513.333
Precise + Slashing`+A8053.3338.8888.8887.407512.407
Precise + Slashing`+S604013.3336.6667.777512.777

Plaguebearer (-1 hit, t4, 5++, 5+++)
TypeDrugAttacksHitsNormal WoundsWounds 6+Unsaved15 Extra MortalsTotal
Strife`+A1005016.66611.1117.407
Strife`+S80402013.3338.888
Cursed`+A80402013.3338.888
Cursed`+S60302013.3338.888
Beserk + Slashing`+A8053.33317.77711.851511.234
Beserk + Slashing`+S60402013.333512.222
Precise + Slashing`+A804013.3338.88859.259
Precise + Slashing`+S60301510510

Mortarion (t7, 3+,4++,5+++)
TypeDrugAttacksHitsNormal WoundsWounds 6+Unsaved15 Extra MortalsTotal
Strife`+A10066.66611.1113.7032.469
Strife`+S8053.33317.7775.9253.950
Cursed`+A8053.33317.7775.9253.950
Cursed`+S604013.3334.4442.962
Beserk + Slashing`+A8066.66611.1113.70355.802
Beserk + Slashing`+S605016.6665.55557.037
Precise + Slashing`+A8053.33308.8884.44456.296
Precise + Slashing`+S60406.6666666676.6665.55557.037
Beserk + Test of Skill`+A8066.66622.2227.4074.938
Beserk + Test of Skill`+S6050258.3335.555
Slashing + Test of Skill`+A8053.33317.7775.92557.283
Slashing + Test of Skill`+S6040206.66657.777
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AlCorps
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 14 2019, 20:08

This is 10 Warriors inside a raider with Splinter Racks

The Winners:
Toxin Crafters are narrowly better than the others on 2w targets.
Otherwise, Flayed Skull and Poison Tongue are the best.
As with the Venoms, if the target is in cover than Flayed Skull are the strongest by a long way.

2+ 1W
UnitShotsHitsNormal Hits6's to hitWoundsUnsavedDamage
Flayed Skull2015.55611.6673.8899.7221.6201.620
Poison Tongue2013.33310.0003.3339.7221.6201.620
Black Heart2013.33310.0003.3338.3331.3891.389
Toxin Crafter2013.33310.0003.3338.3331.3891.389
3+ 1W
UnitShotsHitsNormal Hits6's to hitWoundsUnsavedDamage
Flayed Skull2015.55611.6673.8899.7223.2413.241
Poison Tongue2013.33310.0003.3339.7223.2413.241
Black Heart2013.33310.0003.3338.3332.7782.778
Toxin Crafter2013.33310.0003.3338.3332.7782.778
2+ 2W
UnitShotsHitsNormal Hits6's to hitNormal WoundsExtra D WoundsNormal UnsavedExtra D UnsavedTotal Damage
Flayed Skull2015.55611.6673.8899.7221.6201.620
Poison Tongue2013.33310.0003.3339.7221.6201.620
Black Heart2013.33310.0003.3338.3331.3891.389
Toxin Crafter2013.33310.0003.3335.5562.7780.9260.4631.852
3+ 2W
UnitShotsHitsNormal Hits6's to hitNormal WoundsExtra D WoundsNormal UnsavedExtra D UnsavedTotal Damage
Flayed Skull2015.55611.6673.8899.7223.2413.241
Poison Tongue2013.33310.0003.3339.7223.2413.241
Black Heart2013.33310.0003.3338.3332.7782.778
Toxin Crafter2013.33310.0003.3335.5562.7781.8520.9263.704
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 14 2019, 22:49

What this tells me is that 3 Test of Skill Razorwings are our go-to alpha strike planes of choice. Combine that with ignore-heavy Crimsons.. mmm.. good.

Btw, since you're being awesome with the numbers, if I can bother you for a quick second. A hotly-debated topic right now amongst competitive playrs is how good the make your own CW is compared t othe god-supreme Alaitoc.

For Crimson Hunters, specifically, what is better in the meta?
6++ AND Cover if >12" (+1 AS) on Crimson Hunters, or the -1 to Hit from Alaitoic?

The new CW make-your-own can give Crimson Hunters 2+ armor save (Cover) and 6++ invul vs. the auto-include -2 combined To Hit from Alaitoic + Hard to Hit.

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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 15 2019, 01:32

The Wych numbers are interesting, although it’s worth considering that Raider Squads max out at 10, and Fugue Wyches are quite vulnerable to morale.

And as you add special weapons and power from pain and a succubus buff, the better quality attacks should benefit more. So overall damage output favors Fugue/Impact Wyches only when charging and even then is roughly the same vs typical GEQ/MEQ targets. You lose morale resistance for potential vs tough targets. Tough call.
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 15 2019, 11:20

I'm sort of skeptical that in practice you'll be able to consistently get 15 Wych models within 1" of a unit immediately after they've charged. The numbers still look good even without that, but just bear in mind that it probably won't be quite as stark a difference in real world games.
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 15 2019, 12:32

Its when you finish the charge move for each model within 1" correct? o yeah you will not get 15 in unless its a 3" charge lol.

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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 15 2019, 12:41

I agree, maybe 10 would be a more realistic number.
In horde vs horde (ie plaguebearers of tzaangors), getting a large front on the charge is possible. Similarly with large base monsters like Morty, a lot of wyches could get in range.
The main takeaway is that mortal wounds are very good.

Another consideration is if your wyches are there to deal damage or are a utility unit. Often, they are a utility unit to tarpit and clog objectives, holding in combat for several rounds. In this case, Cursed Blade are much more useful due to ignoring morale and not needing the charge (or first round of combat) to do damage.


I'll post up the crimson hunter options, but the answer is Aloitoc are still the best, and a 6++ is not that valuable.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 15 2019, 12:42

@AlCorps wrote:
I agree, maybe 10 would be a more realistic number.
In horde vs horde (ie plaguebearers of tzaangors), getting a large front on the charge is possible. Similarly with large base monsters like Morty, a lot of wyches could get in range.
The main takeaway is that mortal wounds are very good.

Another consideration is if your wyches are there to deal damage or are a utility unit. Often, they are a utility unit to tarpit and clog objectives, holding in combat for several rounds. In this case, Cursed Blade are much more useful due to ignoring morale and not needing the charge (or first round of combat) to do damage.


I'll post up the crimson hunter options, but the answer is Aloitoc are still the best, and a 6++ is not that valuable.

yeah this build IMO isnt for anti horde, Cursed blade is for that, i'f i take them for custom it will be to have a melee threat for big stuff.

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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 15 2019, 12:47

It's not going to show up in mathammer but there's a pretty good argument for both Red Grief and Acrobatic Display if you want your Cults to focus on lockdown and utility. On paper it sort of feels to me like you can feasibly run a full Cult army now, with each detachment focusing on either tarpitting, horde mulching or large target killing.
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 15 2019, 16:15

I was thinking about acrobatic display for that purpose, it does make wyches double down on their tarpit roll and make them even better at it. If you were going to run acrobatic display though, it probably would be in a cult army with a seperate detachment for reavers/hellions, since there are other combinations that are far better for both of those units.

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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 15 2019, 18:01

Somebody wanted to see dark lances vs disintegrators.
The units are 3 Black Heart Ravagers with Writ, 5 Techno Raiders, 3 Test of Skill Razorwings, and 2 Test of Skill Void Ravens

The Winners;
As stated before, Black Heart Ravagers are still the best.
For the Razorwings, the disintegrator is very close to the dark lance against a rhino, and better against a knight.
On the Void Ravens, the dark scythes perform very well, being better against a rhino and only 0.25 wounds behind void lances against a knight per Void Raven.

Conclusion
Multishot weapons are the best.
It's already common practice to use disintegrators on Ravagers.
There's no reason not to use disintegrators and dark scythes on the planes, the difference against vehicles is tiny, and the extra shots are useful against a variety of targets.


TargetUnitWeaponShotsHitsWoundsUnsavedDamageCombined Weapons
t4 3+ 2w3 BH RavagerDisintegrators272116.33313.61127.222
Dark Lances976.8066.80613.611
5 Techno RaiderDisintegrators15108.3336.94413.889
Dark Lances53.3332.7782.7785.556
3 Wych RazorwingDisintegrators18128.0006.66713.33316.667
Dark Lances643.3333.3336.66710.000
Necrotoxin181210.0003.3333.333
2 Wych Void RavenDark Scythes85.3334.4444.4448.88910.963
Void Lances42.6672.2222.2224.4446.519
Shatterfield74.6674.1482.0742.074
t7 3+ 10w3 BH RavagerDisintegrators27218.1676.80613.611
Dark Lances975.4445.44419.056
5 Techno RaiderDisintegrators15105.0004.16712.5
Dark Lances53.3332.7782.77812.5
3 Wych RazorwingDisintegrators18126.0005.00010.00013.111
Dark Lances643.3333.33311.66714.778
Shatterfield10.576.2223.1113.111
2 Wych Void RavenDark Scythes85.3334.4444.4448.88910.963
Void Lances42.6672.2222.2227.7789.852
Shatterfield74.6674.1482.0742.074
t8 3+ 5++ 10w3 BH RavagerDisintegrators27218.1675.44410.889
Dark Lances974.0832.7229.528
5 Techno RaiderDisintegrators15105.0003.33310.0
Dark Lances53.3332.2221.4816.667
3 Wych RazorwingDisintegrators18126.0004.0008.00010.625
Dark Lances642.6671.7786.2228.847
Shatterfield10.575.2502.6252.625
2 Wych Void RavenDark Scythes85.3333.5562.3704.7416.491
Void Lances42.6672.2221.4815.1856.935
Shatterfield74.6673.5001.7501.750


Last edited by AlCorps on Wed Oct 16 2019, 16:11; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 15 2019, 18:14

I was curious how much Test of Skill affected our main Razorwing weaponry and made the following simple calculation in excel. This comparison is only about stock damage vs ToS damage.

Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread RJMJVOs

Especially for Disintegrators wounding on a 4+ is a massive buff and makes them 50% better on average.
Lances improve by about 33% against Knights and 25% against Rhinos (but I guess we won't be taking them).

For the sake of completeness, I also included Voice Lances (wounding Titans on 2+ sounds amazing) but they only get as good as Disintegrators. I guess it is eye-opening just how powerful Disintegrators are when they have +1 to wound.

It will definitely help, but won't give us a magic knight-killing tool. The shooting of 3 Test of Skill Disint should knock off 8 wounds of a Titan (when at full BS). Without ToS it's 5,33 wounds on average.

Out of curiosity I also looked at how ToS affects Missiles and Splinter Rifles. With the Shatterfield Missiles from 3 Razorwings, you should also get another 2-3 wounds on Titan.

Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread AuHcoN8
Shockingly, Splinter Rifles are still terrible against vehicles when hitting on a 5+.

Used profiles:
- Knight: T8, 3+, 5++
- Rhino: T7, 3+

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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 15 2019, 18:21

I would love to see this pinned. Having a comprehensive database on meta targets is fantastic knowledge to have when designing a competitive list.

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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 15 2019, 18:35

@AlCorps wrote:
I agree, maybe 10 would be a more realistic number.
In horde vs horde (ie plaguebearers of tzaangors), getting a large front on the charge is possible. Similarly with large base monsters like Morty, a lot of wyches could get in range.
The main takeaway is that mortal wounds are very good.

Another consideration is if your wyches are there to deal damage or are a utility unit. Often, they are a utility unit to tarpit and clog objectives, holding in combat for several rounds. In this case, Cursed Blade are much more useful due to ignoring morale and not needing the charge (or first round of combat) to do damage.


I'll post up the crimson hunter options, but the answer is Aloitoc are still the best, and a 6++ is not that valuable.

Thanks man.

I think when analyzing our options with the new supplement, we should also be looking at competitive options outside the codex. Obviously, having access to Alaitoc Crimson Hunters only get better because of the otions they have available as part of their Exarch powers.

For example, they can get (and can be chosen pre-battle)
> +1 damage on all weapons vs. targets that fly
> Ignore Heavy so they hit on BS2+
> Re-roll 1s for damage vs. ground targets

Ofc, these replace Marksman's Eye, which is a re-roll 1s to hit, but you can pay 1 CP to take it on top of it. In a game vs. a bunch of Riptides and Repulsors? Take Aerial Predator for +1 damage vs. Fly. I wish we had this diversity, but I'm not complaining because I love planes Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 15 2019, 18:55

@AIcorps

I think you forgot to add the +1 damage for Technomancers 4 unsaved wounds should be 12 damage not 8. If I missed something please let me know.
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 15 2019, 22:56

@Alcorps, that's great work brother, thanks for doing the math, interesting stuff with Toxin Crafters. Better against Primaris heavy meta.

I suspected that Slashing Wyches were going to be good.
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