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amishprn86
Archon
amishprn86

Posts : 3798
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2019, 03:35

@Ollie wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
My problem is, my skyweavers last 2-3 turns, can melee, tie up units, etc.., scourge die to everything and are 1D3 vs 1D6 shots. Why take 15 scourges for the same cost of 6 Skyweavers? -1/-2, 4++ or 3++, +1 toughness and a total of 18 wounds vs 15 wounds, better movement, and melee.

They should get obsessions honestly.

Yeah of course, I'm not sure why i have to repeat this so much....

SKY WEAVERS ARE THE OBVIOUS ANSWER.

We all know that. But this conversation has almost entirely been about what we can do as a mono codex.

I wasnt saying they are the answer. We all know Skyweavers are better, i'm showing how 1 sided it actually is, Scourges needs a boost is what i'm saying.


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Ollie
Hellion
Ollie

Posts : 43
Join date : 2018-10-07
Location : Whanganui

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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2019, 03:42

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Ollie wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
My problem is, my skyweavers last 2-3 turns, can melee, tie up units, etc.., scourge die to everything and are 1D3 vs 1D6 shots. Why take 15 scourges for the same cost of 6 Skyweavers? -1/-2, 4++ or 3++, +1 toughness and a total of 18 wounds vs 15 wounds, better movement, and melee.

They should get obsessions honestly.

Yeah of course, I'm not sure why i have to repeat this so much....

SKY WEAVERS ARE THE OBVIOUS ANSWER.

We all know that. But this conversation has almost entirely been about what we can do as a mono codex.

I wasnt saying they are the answer. We all know Skyweavers are better, i'm showing how 1 sided it actually is, Scourges needs a boost is what i'm saying.



Yeah man, for sure.

It would be nice if they sorted out the internal balance of our codex in comparison to other codex's.

Top tier or not i would trade our codex for something similar to the Nids codex just because of the list variety.
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Bad-baden-baden
Kabalite Warrior
Bad-baden-baden

Posts : 227
Join date : 2017-06-01
Location : Montreal

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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2019, 04:14

3 units of 5 scourages would do an average of ~10MW, not 20.
Only 4 can take haywire blasters per five, and average of d3 shots is 2. That gives you 24 shots, 16 hits, 8 of which will be a 4+, with ~2-3 of those being a 6.
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Ollie
Hellion
Ollie

Posts : 43
Join date : 2018-10-07
Location : Whanganui

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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2019, 04:25

@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
3 units of 5 scourages would do an average of ~10MW, not 20.
Only 4 can take haywire blasters per five, and average of d3 shots is 2. That gives you 24 shots, 16 hits, 8 of which will be a 4+, with ~2-3 of those being a 6.

Defiantly glad i said to check my math Shocked
guessing i wasn't taking away the failed wounds.

Not being able to make back there points in a single shoot faze hurts... a lot. more so in this case because you have to find something else to finish it off other wise its back to almost full wounds and top bracket again.
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Lord Asvaldir
Hekatrix
Lord Asvaldir

Posts : 1109
Join date : 2015-12-06
Location : Washington DC

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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2019, 05:03

[quote="Ollie"]
@Elfric wrote:

@Lord Asvaldir The last thing i was trying to do was have a dig at you. most of our top table lists include 3 or 7  of them.  I mentioned 7 Talos because that seems to be the critical turning point in our competitive lists where you are able able to hide them at different ends of the table and they cant see them all or you can just charge at them knowing that 3-4 will still make it in. where as just running 3 is normally used as a counter charge unit which wont help us against IH

No worries, I understood what you were going for. I've run 3-4 talos in tournaments and I find they do well, but yeah it's a good unit, so the more the better. Sounds though as it's been beat to death in this topic, talos won't cut it really for haywire blasters, and scourges can't compete with skyweavers.

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Cerve
Wych
Cerve

Posts : 829
Join date : 2014-10-05
Location : Ferrara - Emiglia Romagna

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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2019, 06:58

@Burnage: You don't read dude. I said 1) you don't want to kill those repulsor, they are too hard, don't do that. It is silly trying to win IH on their ground, don't-do-that; 2) you're not trapping Repulsors OF COURSE...c'mon man, don't make me fool. You're going to pinch any other unit that cannot fly.

In that game, you're going to ignore any veichle into Feirros and stone bubbles. Try to killing them is like concede the game to your opponent, it just doesn't work. You're going to kill.everything else from IH player faster, and rush for VPs. So, yes, Scourges are your bait here because of that. You don't want to kill their repulsors/dreadnoughts. So if the IH player waste his fire against them.you're fine!

It is a matter of reading the game it self and know your enemy. Seriously they are just new, they need to be nerfed because in medium levels they're going to shred you badly, but at high levels they are largely beatable.


Don't try to kill.their hardest stuff. It is stupid. In any game you're not pretend to play on your oppo's strenght, but on his weakness. IH aren't different: try to kill their bubble.ist just silly. Beat them on the mission, control the board, kill.everything elese and you will be fine.
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Burnage
Hekatrix
Burnage

Posts : 1146
Join date : 2017-09-12

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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2019, 07:08

@Cerve - yeah, sorry, I misunderstood you. My mistake.
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Cerve
Wych
Cerve

Posts : 829
Join date : 2014-10-05
Location : Ferrara - Emiglia Romagna

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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2019, 08:19

Don'r worry Smile
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withershadow
Wych
withershadow

Posts : 597
Join date : 2018-04-02

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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 19:55

@amishprn86 wrote:
My problem is, my skyweavers last 2-3 turns, can melee, tie up units, etc.., scourge die to everything and are 1D3 vs 1D6 shots. Why take 15 scourges for the same cost of 6 Skyweavers? -1/-2, 4++ or 3++, +1 toughness and a total of 18 wounds vs 15 wounds, better movement, and melee.

They should get obsessions honestly.
Because then you also have to take a Shadowseer, so you're looking at a 435 point investment rather than 276. That extra 159 points makes a difference.

Scourges don't have to be 5-man suicide units. Their 4+/6++/6++ armor is nice, and they put out good (if generic) firepower from ablative dudes. Landing in cover and having 2-3 ablative wounds means your opponent has to invest more than just some potshots to clear the unit (with marines usually this will be an intercessor troop squad that is otherwise camping an objective). But YMMV.
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Elfric
Hellion
Elfric

Posts : 95
Join date : 2018-03-04

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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 20:02

If you can get your scourges into cover, use "Hunt from the Shadows" for 1CP and they suddenly have a 2+ save which makes them surprisingly tricky to shift for a turn.
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Burnage
Hekatrix
Burnage

Posts : 1146
Join date : 2017-09-12

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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 20:08

Even in cover, they're still T3 W1 models and the new Marines are drowning in AP for their shooting. They're absolutely going to die if anything looks at them with more than a casual glare.
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Elfric
Hellion
Elfric

Posts : 95
Join date : 2018-03-04

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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 20:44

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Ollie wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
My problem is, my skyweavers last 2-3 turns, can melee, tie up units, etc.., scourge die to everything and are 1D3 vs 1D6 shots. Why take 15 scourges for the same cost of 6 Skyweavers? -1/-2, 4++ or 3++, +1 toughness and a total of 18 wounds vs 15 wounds, better movement, and melee.

They should get obsessions honestly.

Yeah of course, I'm not sure why i have to repeat this so much....

SKY WEAVERS ARE THE OBVIOUS ANSWER.

We all know that. But this conversation has almost entirely been about what we can do as a mono codex.

I wasnt saying they are the answer. We all know Skyweavers are better, i'm showing how 1 sided it actually is, Scourges needs a boost is what i'm saying.


I always thought Scourges should have access to as much firepower as possible, imagine a squad of 5 Scourges with 4 disintegraters.
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withershadow
Wych
withershadow

Posts : 597
Join date : 2018-04-02

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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 14 2019, 06:00

@Burnage wrote:
Even in cover, they're still T3 W1 models and the new Marines are drowning in AP for their shooting. They're absolutely going to die if anything looks at them with more than a casual glare.
No one is shooting serious heavy weapons at scourges, so we're talking Intercessor guns which are mostly -1, and -2 during tactical doctrine (which normally won't be in effect until at least 2nd turn). Heavy bolters and such are also -1 base. So 10 shots re-rolling 1s to hit and wound only deal an average of 2.46 wounds to Scourges with a 2+ save.

You can also harken back to the good old 2-4th edition pop-up attacks, by just deploying dark lance Scourges out of sight, and using Fire and Fade to pop out, shoot, and hide again. Of course with the to-hit penalty that's a lot of 4+ checks to get through.
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