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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 07 2019, 09:55

Void Hammer 2019 Itc Tournament results:
1. White Scars
2. 3x Knights, Admech, Blood Angels
3. Iron Hands
4. Iron Hands
5. Iron Hands
6. Ravenguard
7. Iron hands
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 07 2019, 11:03

I'm not surprised that the meta shifts to support the first wave of second edition Codexes. I think this will change again as we start to see more. The new Craftworld and Drukhari stuff coming may well put us in those figures again.
Just like how, at the very beginning of 8th, its was the factions with proper Codexes doing better than Index armies.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 07 2019, 16:35

I do think people need time to react to the new codexes, and find the best ways to counter new marine sub dexes.

That being said, yes Iron Hands are a bit too ridiculous.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 07 2019, 16:41

We need time still to figure out best ways to deal with it, after a couple months if its still like this, then yeah its bad.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 07 2019, 17:16

I'm not convinced that this is an issue of us needing time to adapt. Marines are still basically using the same tactics that they have for the whole edition, give or take some changes. They've just become much, much better at it.

I think it's more an issue of "Wait for other armies to get buffs which get them up to par with the Marines." In some cases (like ours) those buffs are going to be fairly minor. Others like Grey Knights and Necrons obviously need a huge amount of help in their 8.5 Codex.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 07 2019, 18:10

I mean if you're willing to dip into harlequin allies, I think we can already deal with IH. Massed haywire is the one thing that IH have very limited defenses against. Without skyweavers, it's a bit more difficult, and I'm not a fan of being forced into spamming one unit to deal with IH. Whatever buff we're getting in the near future is probably just going to be in phoenix rising.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 07 2019, 20:13

A SM WS player beat 2 IH and took 1st in a bigger tournament this weekend. So yeah it cant be that strong. Its just the normal lists players takes will need to change. Give it another month or two and see what happens.

Here is his Batreps (very quick reads)
https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr1ebr

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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 07 2019, 21:42

Its worth adding that I don't think some of the nrew Marine stuff (especially the supplements) have had their first errata yet.
GW have realized before when they've made mistakes and corrected after the first round of feedback. Judgement can probably be reserved a little to see the results of the first errata. I can imagine iron hands doing so well in the tournaments would catch GWs attention and maybe they might realize that something needs tweaking.
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Ollie
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 07 2019, 22:16

I cant see them staying that successful, the meta will switch to MW spam like it did when solo knights were king. how ever unlike knights IH can not ally guard to help them.

I've already dusted off my damons and 1ksons. everything in that match up goes against them... there AT guns (x3 Executioner seems to be a stable) basically go to waste.
They don't seem to have the shots to clear 90 plague bearers with -1/-2 (unless there running centurions/ aggressors which tends to be Fist/Ultras not IH)
And the mortal wounds get around most of the defense buffs.

To top it all off ever with there defense buffs, 30 plague bearers will still kill the 3 dreads that will be baby sitting Ferrios in a single round.

In regards to Drukhari - @Lord Asvaldir is on point saying Sky Weavers as an easy answer, they also work well in all comers lists. Plus if you know your going have to face them it might even be worth taking a squad or two of scourges with haywire. Besides that i wouldn't switch up my lists much.

Pretty interested to hear any first hand experience against them.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 07 2019, 23:30

Skyweavers great, but personally I'm a DE purist, so don't use them.Harder to spam haywire just with scourges/talos.


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Ollie
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 07 2019, 23:56

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Skyweavers great, but personally I'm a DE purist, so don't use them.Harder to spam haywire just with scourges/talos.

I'm not so sure, almost all of my current lists end up with 7 Talos so their is 14 haywires already, and for 92points you can grab 5 scourges with 4 haywire blasters which is better output then two bikes which will set you back 102pts (4d3 > 2d6)

Admittedly the bikes are better all round with there inv, wounds, and assaults... but if you playing pure anything your never going to have it all Razz

If know i'm up against IH and can find 184pts then i will be able to drop roughly 44 haywire shots on them turn one if they move up, or turn two if they don't.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 08 2019, 00:31

Dont forget that Talos are BS4+ thats a huge difference.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 08 2019, 20:23

@Ollie wrote:
@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Skyweavers great, but personally I'm a DE purist, so don't use them.Harder to spam haywire just with scourges/talos.

I'm not so sure, almost all of my current lists end up with 7 Talos so their is 14 haywires already, and for 92points you can grab 5 scourges with 4 haywire blasters which is better output then two bikes which will set you back 102pts  (4d3 > 2d6)

Admittedly the bikes are better all round with there inv, wounds, and assaults... but if you playing pure anything your never going to have it all Razz

If know i'm up against IH and can find 184pts then i will be able to drop roughly 44 haywire shots on them turn one if they move up, or turn two if they don't.

You're not wrong, but I don't own 7 talos, nor do I feel a strong desire to go out and buy 3 more just because I might face IH and need more haywire for that matchup. That being said, yes if you're willing to spam a whole lot of talos and throw in a few scourges as support, you have a decent amount of haywire. Skyweavers do still do it better though considering the durability and bs, talos have the durability but worse bs, scourges the opposite.

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Ollie
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 08 2019, 22:27

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:

You're not wrong, but I don't own 7 talos, nor do I feel a strong desire to go out and buy 3 more just because I might face IH and need more haywire for that matchup. That being said, yes if you're willing to spam a whole lot of talos and throw in a few scourges as support, you have a decent amount of haywire. Skyweavers do still do it better though considering the durability and bs, talos have the durability but worse bs, scourges the opposite.

Have you given them a try in a proxy game? Talos are mind blowing imo, and they have been always been a decent choice as far as i remember. also the haywire on them really is just a silver lining since there already unkillable murder machines.

Just Running 4 of them already and having blasters on your Kabalites then your probably enough to deal with IH on an okay footing while laughing your way to across the finish line with more VP's
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 01:27

I mean I own 4 talos with haywire blasters, I know very well how they work so I don't need to proxy them. Plus I agree with what you said, 4 talos plus haywire scourge plus loads of blasters will do ok ish against IH, might not win but it's a decent amount of anti-tank to deal with them.

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Elfric
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 12:40

I ran 5 Talos and a squad of Scourges with Haywire against IH recently. They all got blown to bits, the Skyweavers and Voidweavers fared much better in comparison
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Ollie
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 20:30

@Elfric wrote:
I ran 5 Talos and a squad of Scourges with Haywire against IH recently. They all got blown to bits, the Skyweavers and Voidweavers fared much better in comparison

Where you running all of them together?
Or the Drukhari one game and Harlequins the next?

Talos are far tougher then bikes and should outlast them if used with the same degree of effort for LOS blocking.

Scourges on the other had are a 1 hit unit no matter what you play against. you deep strike them, have a great round of shooting, try to charge and wrap something that isn't scary, and if they some how survive till next turn you pinch yourself to wake up from that dream.

If you where running these together then it sounds like your Talos were targeted leaving your Skyweavers to have a free time. which is exactly what those 4++ 6+++ monsters are great for.


@Lord Asvaldir The last thing i was trying to do was have a dig at you. most of our top table lists include 3 or 7 of them. I mentioned 7 Talos because that seems to be the critical turning point in our competitive lists where you are able able to hide them at different ends of the table and they cant see them all or you can just charge at them knowing that 3-4 will still make it in. where as just running 3 is normally used as a counter charge unit which wont help us against IH
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 23:24

I love Scourges for the model, but they're a suicide unit, no matter the load out. Haywire is a decent option for a suicide anti-tank unit under 100 points, but they're not something that's going to be carrying the game.

You can maybe count on them taking out a vehicle if they don't flub their rolls. But as one of Scourge's biggest fans, using them as a mainstay against IH is a pretty laughable concept.

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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2019, 00:25

Mmm...strange. I ended my last game vs Marines with all ine Scourges alive. I played 7-7 Grots, 10-5-5 Wracks, Urien+Homo, 3x Autarch Skyrunner, 9 Reavers, 5-5-5 Scourges, 3 Talos, 1 Succubus.

The good stuff about Scourges is that they are expendable...and because of that you WANT your oppo shooting them. You should deploy so many better threats that if your opponent is killing your Scourges you will be actually happy about that.

You don't fight an IH by killing his veichles, that's useless. You win with VP, killing everything else is not into 3" of the stone/6" of Feirros. IH are a castle army, ignore the castle, kill every infantry he is deploy (even better try to pinch it in combat and don't let him fall back: suddendly those IH repulsors becomes useless).
Scourges in that scenario are just a bait. Scourges and Talos both. If he try to kill off your haywire you will be happy.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2019, 00:35

Scourges are some of the best offense we have point-for-point. You don't want the enemy shooting at them... they just will, because they're a T3 4+ save model where every wound lost after the first drastically reduces their damage output.

Repulsors also have Fly, so you can't trap them in combat.
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2019, 02:04

@TheBaconPope wrote:
You can maybe count on them taking out a vehicle if they don't flub their rolls. But as one of Scourge's biggest fans, using them as a mainstay against IH is a pretty laughable concept.

Really? I think there the most obvious unit to include if you were tailoring a list to fight iron hands.
Besides mortal wounds how else do you plan to get rid of a 18W t8 3+ 5++ 6+++ flying tank that takes -1 from damage and will heal a minimum of 7 wounds if it survives...?

Blasters simply don't cut it in this case, and our general tactics of touching something with bikes or a venom also doesn't work.

The other thing to keep in mind is that most of the units that counter kights/IH are tanks as well, I wouldn't be surprised to see a decent number of UM lists spamming Invictor war suits starting to reach top tables as well.

If the meta carry's on shifting towards this and you want to play mono Drukhari then scourges might be the only answer you have.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2019, 02:30

@Ollie wrote:
@TheBaconPope wrote:
You can maybe count on them taking out a vehicle if they don't flub their rolls. But as one of Scourge's biggest fans, using them as a mainstay against IH is a pretty laughable concept.

Really? I think there the most obvious unit to include if you were tailoring a list to fight iron hands.
Besides mortal wounds how else do you plan to get rid of a 18W t8 3+ 5++ 6+++ flying tank that takes -1 from damage and will heal a minimum of 7 wounds if it survives...?

Blasters simply don't cut it in this case, and our general tactics of touching something with bikes or a venom also doesn't work.

The other thing to keep in mind is that most of the units that counter kights/IH are tanks as well, I wouldn't be surprised to see a decent number of UM lists spamming Invictor war suits starting to reach top tables as well.

If the meta carry's on shifting towards this and you want to play mono Drukhari then scourges might be the only answer you have.

I'm not disagreeing that Scourges are good against Iron Hands, just that they're not something you can count as a mainstay when facing them.

Essentially, you get one shooting phase with them before they get blasted off the board. Something like a Ravager, Skyweaver, or Talos is going to have 2-3 turns worth of shooting. Scourges are usually dead or crippled the turn they come in.

Secondly, there is a lot of variability in Haywire. Random number of shots, no bonuses/rerolls to hit, no bonuses/rerolls to wound, random damage on a 6 to wound. And that isn't even factoring in whatever you can add on with the regular S4 wounds.

When something has a potential (mortal) damage range of 0-36 that depends on 3-4 unmodifiable rolls, you really can't rely on it as a consistent source of offense. I've had Haywire Scourges that have 1 shot a Land Raider, and others that have plonked a grand total of two wounds off a Russ.

In fairness, these criticisms also apply to Skyweavers and Haywire Talos. However, these units generally have more than one shooting phase to operate in, as well as a significant melee presence to make up for this. Scourges are one and done. And if you roll poorly, you might as well just flush those 92 points down the drain.

I'm not saying that Haywire Scourges are not comparatively good against Iron Hands. They're one of the best options we have against them. But touting a hit or miss suicide unit as something that can consistently be counted on in this match up is pretty ridiculous.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2019, 03:30

My problem is, my skyweavers last 2-3 turns, can melee, tie up units, etc.., scourge die to everything and are 1D3 vs 1D6 shots. Why take 15 scourges for the same cost of 6 Skyweavers? -1/-2, 4++ or 3++, +1 toughness and a total of 18 wounds vs 15 wounds, better movement, and melee.

They should get obsessions honestly.

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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2019, 03:31

@TheBaconPope wrote:
@Ollie wrote:
@TheBaconPope wrote:
You can maybe count on them taking out a vehicle if they don't flub their rolls. But as one of Scourge's biggest fans, using them as a mainstay against IH is a pretty laughable concept.

Really? I think there the most obvious unit to include if you were tailoring a list to fight iron hands.
Besides mortal wounds how else do you plan to get rid of a 18W t8 3+ 5++ 6+++ flying tank that takes -1 from damage and will heal a minimum of 7 wounds if it survives...?

Blasters simply don't cut it in this case, and our general tactics of touching something with bikes or a venom also doesn't work.

The other thing to keep in mind is that most of the units that counter kights/IH are tanks as well, I wouldn't be surprised to see a decent number of UM lists spamming Invictor war suits starting to reach top tables as well.

If the meta carry's on shifting towards this and you want to play mono Drukhari then scourges might be the only answer you have.

I'm not disagreeing that Scourges are good against Iron Hands, just that they're not something you can count as a mainstay when facing them.

Essentially, you get one shooting phase with them before they get blasted off the board. Something like a Ravager, Skyweaver, or Talos is going to have 2-3 turns worth of shooting. Scourges are usually dead or crippled the turn they come in.

Secondly, there is a lot of variability in Haywire. Random number of shots, no bonuses/rerolls to hit, no bonuses/rerolls to wound, random damage on a 6 to wound. And that isn't even factoring in whatever you can add on with the regular S4 wounds.

When something has a potential (mortal) damage range of 0-36 that depends on 3-4 unmodifiable rolls, you really can't rely on it as a consistent source of offense. I've had Haywire Scourges that have 1 shot a Land Raider, and others that have plonked a grand total of two wounds off a Russ.

In fairness, these criticisms also apply to Skyweavers and Haywire Talos. However, these units generally have more than one shooting phase to operate in, as well as a significant melee presence to make up for this. Scourges are one and done. And if you roll poorly, you might as well just flush those 92 points down the drain.

I'm not saying that Haywire Scourges are not comparatively good against Iron Hands. They're one of the best options we have against them. But touting a hit or miss suicide unit as something that can consistently be counted on in this match up is pretty ridiculous.

I think your confused, we basically agree on this.

I'm not 'touting' Scourges as our end all answer to beat IH. I am literaly saying what you repeated...

@TheBaconPope wrote:
They're one of the best options we have against them.

Yes they are 'hit or miss' but you cant get around that by taking enough that they begin to even out.

Also out of the other units you mentioned, I have already brought up Talos and said that i think running 3- 7 is a brilliant idea and i recommend it. that being said there an assault unit that doesn't die and the haywire on them is just a silver lining since there hitting on +4.

Sky weavers are the obvious choice and first unit mentioned. However we have been talking about mono codex ever since Lord Asvaldir mentioned he didn't wish to dip into allies.

The final unit you mentioned our humble ravagers, is probably the worst units we currently run to deal with them. Its wounding on 5's, they are getting a 5++ then reducing the 2D down to 1D and getting a final 6+++

However:
If you were to run 3 units of scourges your average damage would come out at 20MWs (please check my math), yes that number can swing but that is still what you should be doing on average. Even if you only get the 18 you need to kill a single one they have still payed there points off. on top of that there still there to draw a bunch of fire turn 2/3 or maybe get a 2nd turn shooting if your smart with your charges.
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to the new meta    Welcome to the new meta  I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2019, 03:34

@amishprn86 wrote:
My problem is, my skyweavers last 2-3 turns, can melee, tie up units, etc.., scourge die to everything and are 1D3 vs 1D6 shots. Why take 15 scourges for the same cost of 6 Skyweavers? -1/-2, 4++ or 3++, +1 toughness and a total of 18 wounds vs 15 wounds, better movement, and melee.

They should get obsessions honestly.

Yeah of course, I'm not sure why i have to repeat this so much....

SKY WEAVERS ARE THE OBVIOUS ANSWER.

We all know that. But this conversation has almost entirely been about what we can do as a mono codex.
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