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Lord Asvaldir
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Lord Asvaldir

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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 14 2019, 05:10

I mean the extra ap matters so rarely against us. Any weapon shooting at our vehicles just needs ap-1 and our save already goes down to the invul value, anymore ap is wasted. Same case with coven units if you're running prophets of flesh, which let's face it most of us are.

Ignoring the move penalty and reroll 1s though, yes that makes IH vehicles a fair bit stronger. There's no doubt even before seeing the full picture of IH relics/powers/strats, they will be able to make very strong vehicle lists.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 14 2019, 10:38

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
I mean Drazhar is not a great comparison, he's pretty overpriced.

That being said 110 for the iron father seems rather under priced, I'd expect him to be closer to 140.

Even 140 would be insanely cheap. He really needs to be in the 180-200pt range.

A 5++ aura that works on infantry *and* vehicles *and* against both melee and shooting attacks is insane.

I mean, the closest comparison I can find is a Big Mek in Mega Armour with a Power Klaw, Custom Shoota and Kustom Force Field.

(Both have 2+ armour, both can heal vehicles, both have a 5++ aura etc.)

Compared with the Big Mech, Feirros has higher movement (5 instead of 4), drastically better BS (2+ instead of 5+), S4 T5 (instead of S5 T4), 2 more wounds and 2 more attacks.

Feirros also has a vastly better shooting weapon (36" Heavy 3 S5 AP-2 D2 compared with 18" Assault 4 S4 AP0 D1 for the Custom Shoota).

Feirros has better healing (repairing 3 wounds instead of d3).

The only area where the Big Mek *might* have an edge is in melee, as it swings at S10 AP-3 Dd3, compared with Feirros' S7 AP-2 D2. However, while his weapon has a worse profile, Feirros has 5 attacks at WS3+, whilst the Big Mek has only 3 and at WS4+. Given that his weapon still has a respectable profile, it seems Feirros likely has the edge even here.

Oh, and on top of everything else Feirros can pick a unit each shooting phase and give every model in that unit BS2+. But doubling a unit's hit-rate is barely even worth mentioning, right?

Lastly, we get back to the point covered earlier - which is that Feirros' aura is orders of magnitude better than any other such aura in the game. His aura only requires a single model from any unit to be within range in order to affect the entire unit. Meanwhile, the Bik Mek's Custom Force Field can only protect infantry units if all the *models* are within the 6" aura. Any model outside of the area gets no protection. But on top of that, the Custom Force Field only protects models from shooting attacks. Feirros' aura protects them from *any* attacks (melee or shooting).


Even if we say that Feirros is about equal in melee to the Big Mek, he still has better BS, more wounds, more movement, better protection, a much better gun, better repair ability, an extra buff (to which the Big Mech has no equivalent), and an aura that's in a different league to that of the Big Mech.

So what does Feirros pay for all these goodies?

-2pts

He outclasses the Big Mech in every way and yet is actually cheaper.

The level of codex creep at this point is just insane.

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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 14 2019, 10:44

yes that comparison was spot on (you forgot he also has 5+ fnp)
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 14 2019, 13:57

Can confirm he is 110pts from the TTT preview
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 14 2019, 18:23

@Soulless Samurai: 200pts seems steep to me, but we could argue the iron father should be in the 140-150 range vs 180-200 range, and it won't change that he's just 110. Obviously we can all agree he's rather underpriced for what he does.

Either way, my view hasn't changed. Do IH seem very strong? Absolutely. Are they some OP unbeatable power combo? Unlikely, I've beaten tough marine lists with the new codex in a tournament setting before, and I imagine IH are beatable as well. I have no doubt it's a tough matchup for DE with all the damage reductions, invul saves and all around just really potent IH vehicles, but it's similar to facing a knight heavy list, you can probably beat them on objectives.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 14 2019, 20:15

IH is gonna be contenders for top 1 place at tournaments. Their buffs are just so relevant.

The amount of infantry wiping power they possess is massive. They even make Redemptor Dread scary, with 20 S5 AP-2 shots, 5++ invul, almost no degrading.

Repulsors getting same, hitting on 2+ with Iron Father...bonkers. And on top of that, can be repaired for flat 6 wounds. My admech cant do this that reliably, IH will repair better then Cawl himself.

3-6 agressors are going to be a thing, almost 110 bolter shots from that unit...with a 1CP strat each 6 to wound is doubled. Those are bonkers.


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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 14 2019, 21:39

Assuming that IH is as bad to face as it appears, do you think Dark Lances might come off the shelf again? Their AP isn't going to help, but variable 1-5 damage is better than a flat 1.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 14 2019, 22:02

They have stratagem to halve damage and then reduce 1 from it. So 6 damage become 2 damage. I believe HW scourges might work, but even there will be 6+ FnP.

ITs bonkers. Their Iron Father can just consolidate out of combat, just like that. Not even Wyches will hold him.

He can literally charge, fight and consolidate out of combat without any damage to himself.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 14 2019, 22:12

It depends on how much CP Iron Hands lists have to throw around. The Duty Eternal stratagem (which halves the damage that Dreadnoughts take) means that with the Ironstone relic (which then substracts one from the damage) even a Dark Lance will only be dealing 1-2 points of damage to them.

Against a T7 Dread they'll be doing the same damage in that situation, against a T8 Dread the Dissies will still be dealing more.

Haywire also isn't a perfect solution, thanks to the Armor of Contempt stratagem which gives vehicles a 5+++ against Mortal Wounds.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 14 2019, 22:46

@Azdrubael wrote:

He can literally charge, fight and consolidate out of combat without any damage to himself.

How can he do that? Did IH get a strat that lets them consolidate out of combat opposed to falling back?

Haywire is still pretty solid, a ++5 isn't going to save that many wounds. The problem is scourge get shot off the table as soon as something looks at them, and they don't get that many haywire shots. I'd still take one unit though against IH, and I'd consider getting a second.

Half damage strat is good, but I wouldn't completely discount dark lances because of it. Your opponent will have more than one dread, they can't half damage all of them.

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Sarcron
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 14 2019, 23:12

Aha! My plan of 131 point 10-man kab squads will be worth it!

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 14 2019, 23:16

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Haywire is still pretty solid, a ++5 isn't going to save that many wounds.

I mean, it's reducing Mortal Wounds by 1/3. I think that will be pretty noticeable - especially combined with all the other defences.


@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
The problem is scourge get shot off the table as soon as something looks at them, and they don't get that many haywire shots. I'd still take one unit though against IH, and I'd consider getting a second.


What about Skyweavers?

Also, if you took Scourges would you deep strike them or start them on the table?


@Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Half damage strat is good, but I wouldn't completely discount dark lances because of it. Your opponent will have more than one dread, they can't half damage all of them.  

I don't know, at this point I wouldn't be surprised to see an Iron Hands Warlord Trait along the lines of The Most Iron Hands: 'Whenever you use a stratagem that affects a single Iron Hands unit it instead affects every friendly Iron Hands unit'. Rolling Eyes

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 15 2019, 01:40

Lol I wouldn't be too surprised if they got some silliness like that.

There is little doubt skyweavers are more resilient than scourges and put out more haywire shots. However, I am a Dark Eldar purist so I don't factor them into my considerations. As for scourges deep striking or starting on the board, depends a lot on the board and what I'm facing. If there's some good terrain to hide them behind and my opponent isn't using some LoS ignoring unit, I'll start them on the board. That's the ideal scenario for me, as starting on the board they can fire&fade to stay alive for as long as possible, really like to get more than a single turn of shooting out of them. Problem with deep striking, no fire&fade which often means they don't survive. I might consider 2 units of them against IH though given all the potential for tough vehicles. Yeah the +5 save is a pain, but the haywire still goes through all their damage mitigating stuff a lot better than anything else we have.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 15 2019, 08:35

Quote :
How can he do that? Did IH get a strat that lets them consolidate out of combat opposed to falling back?

He have warlord trait Student of History, can consolidate 6 rather then 3 and it can be in any direction, not just closer to enemy.

Thats basically mean you can consolidate after fighting away from enemy and they cant activate for fighting, because noone is in 1 inch and they havent charge. Even if they do charge, he consolidates 6 and thats more then 95% units in the game can pile in.

And thats just generic trait, some smash master IH will be able to do it too. And hey ))) They can do it twice with generic SM stratagem.

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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 15 2019, 09:34

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
How can he do that? Did IH get a strat that lets them consolidate out of combat opposed to falling back?

He have warlord trait Student of History, can consolidate 6 rather then 3 and it can be in any direction, not just closer to enemy.

Thats basically mean you can consolidate after fighting away from enemy and they cant activate for fighting, because noone is in 1 inch and they havent charge. Even if they do charge, he consolidates 6 and thats more then 95% units in the game can pile in.

And thats just generic trait, some smash master IH will be able to do it too. And hey ))) They can do it twice with generic SM stratagem.

lol is that for real? wtf is going on
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 15 2019, 19:18

That has to be unintentional. Just having to take the full force of a melee charge with no counter play at all is not just broken, it seems antithetical to the design philosophy GW has been going for.

I'd be surprised if something saying that they couldn't consolidate out of combat was not in the two week FAQ

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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 16 2019, 02:11

i mean the new space marine snipers can move 6" before a opponent makes a charge move soooo yeah, we are no longer the blisteringly fast faction
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 16 2019, 03:55

I have been building a Primaris force for a secondary army and ran through a game between Iron Hands and Drukhari. I will say that turn 1 and 2 had very high damage output from the Marines. But by the end of five the Marines were essentially tabled.

One character can walk out of combat, but that's it. I was able to tie a lot of stuff up in melee. Hot dice rolls with a Shadowfield tanked the big dreadnought and it couldn't do anything if it backed away.

The Ham with ability to negate overwatch was priceless.

Disintegrators may not do much to vehicles, but they still shred infantry. Even with FNP.

Dark lances are solid against the new Invictor Warsuits. They are only T6 and if opponents are using the infiltration ability, they aren't in range of the defensive abilities. Sure, an infiltrating librarian is going to heal a little bit, but if you focus fire down one at a time, they won't have a target to heal.

This is consistent with the five to ten games I've played as Iron Hands. If the enemy can weather the first few turns of damage, the Marines still die fairly quickly to counter fire.



As to points... I'm withholding judgment until CA 2019. I suspect Drukhari will get a few point adjustments. Hopefully cheaper Splinter Cannons....
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 16 2019, 04:52

@TheBaconPope wrote:
That has to be unintentional. Just having to take the full force of a melee charge with no counter play at all is not just broken, it seems antithetical to the design philosophy GW has been going for.

It only effects consolidation moves, which are made after charges, pile ins and attacks.  They still get away, but that's after all blows have been struck.  It can be negated by enveloping the warlord, which shouldn't be too difficult, given our speed, rerolls on charges, and the 3 inch pile in.

EDIT: It occurred to me you were speaking about the Warlord charging. In that case, you could nullify it by using Counterattack.


The consistent theme I see with Iron Hands is that you have to concentrate and overkill units.  The combination of damage reduction and wound healing on vehicles, and resistance to degrading means no more half measures and wearing them down.  I can also see an overemphasis on Heavy shooting, and newfound importance for Reavers, Raiders and Venoms locking down vehicle shooting.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 16 2019, 05:32

Lots of D6 damage dark light will be useful, whether it be from blasters or lances. The half-damage strat is annoying... but it's a strat, so it has a one-use-per-phase limitation and it costs the opponent CP (and it can be AoV'd). You just need to misdirect as you would vs. a knight list using 'rotate ion shields'. Haywire is still good, though, but I generally think of haywire as a supplement to other damage sources, rather than something that stands on its own.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 16 2019, 15:45

If you're willing to run a bunch of skyweavers, haywire can be seen more as your main vehicle damaging tool. However, if you want to stay pure Drukhari and just use scourges/talos, yeah it's just supplemental damage. I agree that blasters/dark lances are still solid despite how good disintegrator cannons are, if you're taking say 6-8 darklight weapons as I often do in a list, they are going to pack a punch, especially against any dreadnought not t8.

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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 16 2019, 16:47

It's probably worth bearing in mind that, point for point, Scourges put out (slightly) more Haywire shots than Skyweavers do. It's just that they're fragile as hell while the Skyweavers are pretty damn durable, and the rule of three limits Scourges considerably more than Skyweavers.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 16 2019, 17:02

@Burnage wrote:
It's probably worth bearing in mind that, point for point, Scourges put out (slightly) more Haywire shots than Skyweavers do. It's just that they're fragile as hell while the Skyweavers are pretty damn durable, and the rule of three limits Scourges considerably more than Skyweavers.

Skyweavers also have decent melee presence so they might be useful for tying up vehicles in combat - especially since in they can jump away the next turn and still shoot and charge again.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 16 2019, 18:44

@Burnage wrote:
It's probably worth bearing in mind that, point for point, Scourges put out (slightly) more Haywire shots than Skyweavers do. It's just that they're fragile as hell while the Skyweavers are pretty damn durable, and the rule of three limits Scourges considerably more than Skyweavers.

Yeah that's the main issue, I'd count on skyweavers actually being around to use their haywire more than once. For scourges, that's a lot more difficult. Sometimes doable with fire&fade depending on the board you're playing on, but scourge are not easy to hide and your opponent could be taking a thunderfire cannon which won't care about line of sight.

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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 17 2019, 04:13

I am concerned that IH will make a large impact on the SM meta. This will lead to even more emphasis on Kabal darklight armies. Even then, the idea that IH will have Heavy Bolters and Assault Cannons (I hate that His have the only viable Landspeeders!) mowing down Kabalites is depressing.

My hope is that IH players commit to shooting to such and extent that it makes them inflexible and vulnerable to tarpits.
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