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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 12 2019, 21:37

So... how do you like the new marine army with 5+ invou, feel no pain, 2 balistic skill and moving and firing heavy weapons without penalty rerroling 1s... oh and vehicles that dont degraded
oh and did you see that relic "the ironstone" making all their vehicles within 3 of it reduce the damage they take by one and thus rendering disintegrators basically useless against them...
Is it me or is this getting a bit out of hand now?
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 12 2019, 21:48

They're making me reconsider bringing Haywire Scourges or Talos. I don't see how else we can possibly deal with their vehicles.
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Genomir
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 12 2019, 22:23

Is it just me, or are we seeing a return of 7th edition codex creep?
And like Burnage said, this may be the time to dust off the haywire scourges.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 12 2019, 22:34

@Burnage wrote:
They're making me reconsider bringing Haywire Scourges or Talos. I don't see how else we can possibly deal with their vehicles.

What about Dark Lances instead of Disintegrators on Ravagers and such?

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 12 2019, 22:51

Dark Lances are going to suffer even worse than Disintegrators against them. With the right combination of abilities Iron Hands vehicles can halve the damage against them and then subtract one to a minimum of one, so both Lances and Dissies will be doing an average of one point of damage after a successful wound and failed save.

It's pretty ridiculous on paper and definitely feeling like Codex creep.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 00:28

I just had a rather traumatic vision of three Iron Hands Storm Talons backed up by three Leviathan Dreadnoughts standing beside a CM and Lt.

Other than bringing tons of Haywire (and honestly Skyweavers are way better than what’s available in the DE codex), I’m struggling to see how we handle a mech-heavy Iron Hands list. .

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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 07:54

I just noticed they also have 5 up overwatch so you cannot even charge them...
Still trying to find a con... There has to be a con somewhere
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 10:35

@Burnage wrote:
Dark Lances are going to suffer even worse than Disintegrators against them. With the right combination of abilities Iron Hands vehicles can halve the damage against them and then subtract one to a minimum of one, so both Lances and Dissies will be doing an average of one point of damage after a successful wound and failed save.

It's pretty ridiculous on paper and definitely feeling like Codex creep.

Shocked

Welp, looks like I need to speed up on my Harlequin Skyweaver conversions. Razz

Also, can IH vehicles withdraw from combat and still shoot? If not, maybe we could aim to tie them up on melee with bikers or vehicles (if we want to recreate the battle of Kursk).

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 15:00

@DevilDoll wrote:
I just noticed they also have 5 up overwatch so you cannot even charge them...
Still trying to find a con... There has to be a con somewhere

Hold up there, you can't charge something if it overwatchs on a +5? Sure it's good, but it's not going to completely stop you from charging. Tau have had +5 overwatch as well as their chain overwatch mechanism for awhile, and they are still very chargeable.

As far, IH have nothing that lets them withdraw from combat and shoot. We haven't seen all of their 16 stratagems yet so we'll see what else they will get. So far though it looks like tying them up in melee is the solution. That and haywire, I think I'll be getting myself a 2nd unit of haywire scourges.

There's no doubt these new IH rules are strong, but I will withhold some judgement until I see all their strats and powers.

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 15:08

The problem I see is that even if we can tie them up in melee, we really don't have anything that can kill them faster than they can kill us. Standard rules of play to objectives and such are good avenues, but if you're facing a force that's nigh unkillable tarpitting is just delaying the inevitable.

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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 15:40

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
@DevilDoll wrote:
I just noticed they also have 5 up overwatch so you cannot even charge them...
Still trying to find a con... There has to be a con somewhere

Hold up there, you can't charge something if it overwatchs on a +5? Sure it's good, but it's not going to completely stop you from charging. Tau have had +5 overwatch as well as their chain overwatch mechanism for awhile, and they are still very chargeable.

As far, IH have nothing that lets them withdraw from combat and shoot. We haven't seen all of their 16 stratagems yet so we'll see what else they will get. So far though it looks like tying them up in melee is the solution. That and haywire, I think I'll be getting myself a 2nd unit of haywire scourges.

There's no doubt these new IH rules are strong, but I will withhold some judgement until I see all their strats and powers.

yes you can charge them on a 5+ (re rolling 1s) its just over the top that they even have an answer for their one and only weakness its absurd.
On paper they seem absolutely ridiculous and people seem to agree from what i can see in other discussions but yeah we need to see them on the table to be sure...
Having said that i think maybe Talos with haywires might? do something against them since they are the only thing we have that can actually hurt them in cc if and when it reaches them, and since our super cool disintegrators will just scratch the paint off of their armour...

Or hey maybe we can tie them up with the new cool plastic banshees ^_^ Very Happy
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 16:00

Already told my buddy I'm bringing a Dark Creed Tantalus to snipe his Iron Father and the guy with the Relic stone
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 16:02

Tying the vehicles up in close combat is probably the best of the not great options available. In which case optimal target priority may be to try and take out their countercharges units like Aggressors prior to charging. Or flyers. I really do think three Storm Talons will be the Iron Hands equivalent of three BH Ravagers with disintegrators, meaning something so effective for its cost that it’s basically an auto include in any semi-competitive list.
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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 16:06

@Gizamaluke wrote:
Already told my buddy I'm bringing a Dark Creed Tantalus to snipe his Iron Father and the guy with the Relic stone

this is actually not a bad idea lol... unless he goes first ^_^
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 16:24

Played a 1500 point tournament last week. Fought Iron Hands vehicle heavy list.
He had a grav tank thingie. He had a super dreadnaught with like 20 shots that hit on 2's and he had a 4++ invul save, he had another dreadnaught with a 5++ invul and a lot of shots, 3 units of intercessors, etc etc etc.

He gave up after the end of my turn 2.

I had 3 dissie ravagers, 5 venoms and a raider. Flayed Skull. raider had 2 arcons with blasters in it, and a 5 man squad with blaster. I also had a razorwing.
I went first. flew up 19" and dissied, blasted his grav tank off the board, and dropped his 5++ naught down to teir 2. Venoms wiped 1 intercessor squad and part of another. (the +1 to hit fly unit strat helped on the raider and the people inside. Hit on 2's across the board with 3 blasters and a lance).

He went and predictably dropped my raider and two venoms.
My turn wiped the last of the intecessors, the 5++ naught and crippled his super dreadnaught. He did not take his turn 2.

How did I beat him so easily? Well, the venoms mopped his troops, but the troops were not the threat. He had to drop the venoms to get to the blasters inside, which he never got the chance to do. I was going to charge him turn 2 with venoms because his dreadnaughts SUCK in HTH. they really really suck! you could tie it up all game with 1-2 units, but never had to, because he just could not kill enough efiiciently to make a difference.
Torment grenade launcher on the arcon for two turns hurt his dreadnaught as well (no invul allowed) and when the troops were dead, even a venom snuck a wound or two through.

Though powerful, Iron hands are still just marines. Overwhelm / poison / darklight them to death.
I would not start panicking yet.

as an aside- i have now changed back to dark lances on my ravagers because of units like this that -1 to wounds. It was annoying.

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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 16:48

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Played a 1500 point tournament last week. Fought Iron Hands vehicle heavy list.
He had a grav tank thingie. He had a super dreadnaught with like 20 shots that hit on 2's and he had a 4++ invul save, he had another dreadnaught with a 5++ invul and a lot of shots, 3 units of intercessors, etc etc etc.

He gave up after the end of my turn 2.

I had 3 dissie ravagers, 5 venoms and a raider. Flayed Skull.  raider had 2 arcons with blasters in it, and a 5 man squad with blaster. I also had a razorwing.
I went first. flew up 19" and dissied, blasted his grav tank off the board, and dropped his 5++ naught down to teir 2. Venoms wiped 1 intercessor squad and part of another. (the +1 to hit fly unit strat helped on the raider and the people inside. Hit on 2's across the board with 3 blasters and a lance).

He went and predictably dropped my raider and two venoms.
My turn wiped the last of the intecessors, the 5++ naught and crippled his super dreadnaught. He did not take his turn 2.

How did I beat him so easily? Well, the venoms mopped his troops, but the troops were not the threat. He had to drop the venoms to get to the blasters inside, which he never got the chance to do. I was going to charge him turn 2 with venoms because his dreadnaughts SUCK in HTH. they really really suck! you could tie it up all game with 1-2 units, but never had to, because he just could not kill enough efiiciently to make a difference.
Torment grenade launcher on the arcon for two turns hurt his dreadnaught as well (no invul allowed) and when the troops were dead, even a venom snuck a wound or two through.

Though powerful, Iron hands are still just marines. Overwhelm / poison / darklight them to death.
I would not start panicking yet.

as an aside- i have now changed back to dark lances on my ravagers because of units like this that -1 to wounds. It was annoying.

This is obviously pre supplement unless your pal had early access? I'm not gonna panic about them getting the power boost and I'm sure we will still be able to handle them, just a bit miffed at the trend of marines getting the best bits of eldar now. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the supplements gets AoV or if the Iron Hands have a -1 to hit aura that affects vehicles; then theyd literally be Alaitoc&Iyanden&Ulthwe wave serpents with the right combo of dudes n spells.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 19:18

@Gizamaluke wrote:
Already told my buddy I'm bringing a Dark Creed Tantalus to snipe his Iron Father and the guy with the Relic stone

So hey, turns out that Iron Hands get a bodyguard strat to prevent this. So that's cool.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 19:57

@Burnage wrote:
@Gizamaluke wrote:
Already told my buddy I'm bringing a Dark Creed Tantalus to snipe his Iron Father and the guy with the Relic stone

So hey, turns out that Iron Hands get a bodyguard strat to prevent this. So that's cool.

Let's AoV that strat. We're fine.
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 20:36

@Burnage wrote:
@Gizamaluke wrote:
Already told my buddy I'm bringing a Dark Creed Tantalus to snipe his Iron Father and the guy with the Relic stone

So hey, turns out that Iron Hands get a bodyguard strat to prevent this. So that's cool.

>Sad then I'll just have to drown them in poison the old fashioned way, rats! I bet its the arbitrarily better than our Sslyth bodyguard rules too, where all damage is demoted to a single Mortal wound
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 20:42

@dumpeal wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
@Gizamaluke wrote:
Already told my buddy I'm bringing a Dark Creed Tantalus to snipe his Iron Father and the guy with the Relic stone

So hey, turns out that Iron Hands get a bodyguard strat to prevent this. So that's cool.

Let's AoV that strat. We're fine.

*Cries in Poison Tongue*

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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 22:10

so apparently if what i read elsewhere is true (and i really hope this is bs) this freaking ridiculousness that is the iron father or whatever his name is costs 110 points... Yes he costs LESS than Drazhar... let that sink in for a moment and lets talk again about balance...
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 22:49

@dumpeal wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
@Gizamaluke wrote:
Already told my buddy I'm bringing a Dark Creed Tantalus to snipe his Iron Father and the guy with the Relic stone

So hey, turns out that Iron Hands get a bodyguard strat to prevent this. So that's cool.

Let's AoV that strat. We're fine.

You'd still be spending 6 command points in total and on average the Tantalus would leave the Iron Father with two wounds remaining.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 23:09

@DevilDoll wrote:
so apparently if what i read elsewhere is true (and i really hope this is bs) this freaking ridiculousness that is the iron father or whatever his name is costs 110 points... Yes he costs LESS than Drazhar... let that sink in for a moment and lets talk again about balance...

He also has more attacks than Drazhar and a vastly better melee weapon.

Oh and he has more wounds than St. Celestine. Because of course he does.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 14 2019, 01:25

I mean Drazhar is not a great comparison, he's pretty overpriced.

That being said 110 for the iron father seems rather under priced, I'd expect him to be closer to 140.

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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 14 2019, 05:07

I'm just spooked by the combination of Devastator Doctrine and Calculated Fury.

Heavy weapons ignore movement penalty, rerolls 1s and have additional -1 AP.

Scary.
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