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False Son
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 20 2019, 20:36

After watching an unboxing video of this set, I am increasingly convinced this was a move to vacate old product. Vypers and Falcons have been around since late 2nd Ed. Hellions never moved, but are sold in a small enough quantity that it might tempt you to either buy more, or convert into Beastmasters. Let's face it, the only things of note here are the characters, new Banshees and Incubi. On the Drukhari side, everything is sub faction neutral, other than the Hellions.

Craftworld Aeldari are also a popular army. It would really surprise me if so much information intended to inject life into the army was kept in this set, and not destined for a codex revamp. This seems like more of a already-in-the-can situation where they are attempting to use the exclusivity of the rules to sell you the models.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 20 2019, 21:36

It would be SUPER easy to make models sell well if you change a few points and rules, literally take 1 hour and print a PDF for the players and BAM! Models are selling. This was already proven a fact in 7th when formations came out.

So to me, it seems (and their is videos of the team backing this up) they truly are more about narrative play over caring about the rules/balance of units.

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krayd
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2019, 01:47

@amishprn86 wrote:
It would be SUPER easy to make models sell well if you change a few points and rules, literally take 1 hour and print a PDF for the players and BAM! Models are selling. This was already proven a fact in 7th when formations came out.

So to me, it seems (and their is videos of the team backing this up) they truly are more about narrative play over caring about the rules/balance of units.

Well, if they *really* cared about narrative play, then they would have made the rules match up with fluff better - you'd be able to take Jain Zar, Lelith, and Eldrad in Ynarri detachments, for example.
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Ripper.McGuirl
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2019, 02:52

I also found this baffling. Not only can you not have a Ynnari army unless one of the three are present, you also can’t have any other named characters, even though a ton are mentioned in the lore. Also, even though they multiple times mentioned in warhammer community that the new models have bare heads to symbolize their dedication to their cause, the book never once mentions anything about it, or anything else about their appearance besides they wear read sometimes. The WD article with the index in it actually had more info about their appearance than this book that was supposedly heavily featuring them.
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Burnage
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2019, 03:09

If Craftworlds and Drukhari each get a v2 Codex (and I'm very torn on how likely that is) then it's entirely possible that Jain and Lelith will get Ynnari datasheets there.

Then again I also thought it was plausible that they'd be getting them in Phoenix Rising, so what do I know. I feel like the only constant is that GW really don't know what the frak to do with the Ynnari.
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False Son
Kabalite Warrior
False Son

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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2019, 03:25

@amishprn86 wrote:
It would be SUPER easy to make models sell well if you change a few points and rules, literally take 1 hour and print a PDF for the players and BAM! Models are selling. This was already proven a fact in 7th when formations came out.

So to me, it seems (and their is videos of the team backing this up) they truly are more about narrative play over caring about the rules/balance of units.

I agree to a point. Every datasheet entry and Stratagem is a miniature sales pitch. But, Hellions have been overpriced since at least 5th edition. I don't think it is a mistake. There must be some consensus within the studio that Hellions are too much of a danger if they get a substantial point reduction or more powerful rules.

However, this set has partially done the trick and gotten me to buy more models in anticipation of the custom subfaction rules.
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withershadow
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2019, 05:50

@Burnage wrote:
If Craftworlds and Drukhari each get a v2 Codex (and I'm very torn on how likely that is) then it's entirely possible that Jain and Lelith will get Ynnari datasheets there.

Then again I also thought it was plausible that they'd be getting them in Phoenix Rising, so what do I know. I feel like the only constant is that GW really don't know what the frak to do with the Ynnari.
There is enough new material for Craftworlds in this book to already re-print the Codex. Just incorporate all of the FAQs and point changes and rules changes, and maybe tweak existing Craftworld bonuses, and presto, Eldar 1.5 much like Chaos got after Vigilus.

I'm sure Drukhari will eventually also get a similar treatment, but we simply have had way fewer new things introduced with this release, so I expect us to be on the backburner for a couple of years at least.
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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2019, 13:35

@False Son wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
It would be SUPER easy to make models sell well if you change a few points and rules, literally take 1 hour and print a PDF for the players and BAM! Models are selling. This was already proven a fact in 7th when formations came out.

So to me, it seems (and their is videos of the team backing this up) they truly are more about narrative play over caring about the rules/balance of units.

I agree to a point.  Every datasheet entry and Stratagem is a miniature sales pitch.  But, Hellions have been overpriced since at least 5th edition.  I don't think it is a mistake.  There must be some consensus within the studio that Hellions are too much of a danger if they get a substantial point reduction or more powerful rules.  

However, this set has partially done the trick and gotten me to buy more models in anticipation of the custom subfaction rules.

Well. Ork Stormboyz are 9pts, can auto-deepstrike, move 12" (or 18" risky). Attack: 3 (without easy additions), str 4, with slugga (pistols).
Hellions are 14 points, no deepstrike, but can Hit and Run, move 14", Attack 2, str 4 but damage 2. Splinter pods 18" range with poison (a detriment v. slugga's, I think).

So, 14 stormboyz (42 melee attack innate and 14 sluggas) or 9 hellions (18 melee attack, 18 poison shots)? Which is more a threat? And most Ork players don't think Storms are that efficient at 9 points.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2019, 14:13

It's not crazy to think that Hellions might be one of our best candidates now for points reductions in this year's Chapter Approved.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2019, 16:44

I wonder how much they need to go down to be considered a worthwhile choice though. 10pts feel like too much to ask for, I'd hope for 12.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2019, 16:55

Regarding Hellions, I don't think cost is the only issue. There's also the fact that their role is very poorly defined:
- They're T3 models with no defence beyond a 5+ armour save and 6+ FNP - so even basic bolters are going to shred them.
- They have D2 melee weapons but are only S4 with no AP. What targets are they supposed to be aiming for?
- They bring some potentially-decent mid-range shooting, except that Cult has next to nothing to buff it. Plus they're far too fragile to win any firefights.
- They have Hit & Run but (unlike Wyches) lack any ability that would allow them to pin enemies in melee.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2019, 16:57

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
I wonder how much they need to go down to be considered a worthwhile choice though. 10pts feel like too much to ask for, I'd hope for 12.

Just make them -1 to hit if they moved that turn and I would play them at 14pts.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2019, 17:36

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
Regarding Hellions, I don't think cost is the only issue. There's also the fact that their role is very poorly defined:
- They're T3 models with no defence beyond a 5+ armour save and 6+ FNP - so even basic bolters are going to shred them.
- They have D2 melee weapons but are only S4 with no AP. What targets are they supposed to be aiming for?
- They bring some potentially-decent mid-range shooting, except that Cult has next to nothing to buff it. Plus they're far too fragile to win any firefights.
- They have Hit & Run but (unlike Wyches) lack any ability that would allow them to pin enemies in melee.

Yep, this! Why dont they have a 7th style power lance instead of their crappy weapon?, +2str -2ap on the charge, then once in melee +1str, -1ap. Also give them Dodge in melee b.c they are FREAKING WYCHES after all, but they can FLY, they should be able to freaken dodge.

Dodge + redesign of the weapon, boom i like them.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2019, 18:36

Today's fluff update is seriously cruel. Can Corsairs even legally be run in an army right now?
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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2019, 19:40

@Burnage wrote:
Today's fluff update is seriously cruel. Can Corsairs even legally be run in an army right now?

yeah true...
on another note what was a Haemonculus doing on a slaaneshi warship...? i dont like where this is going tbh...
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2019, 19:47

@Burnage wrote:
Today's fluff update is seriously cruel. Can Corsairs even legally be run in an army right now?

Pretty sure you can take a 0cp batallion of them or a 0vp Outrider, someone won a tournament with them months ago by spamming basic troops with shardcarbines and a Blaster in as many venoms as they could get
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2019, 20:56

@DevilDoll wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
Today's fluff update is seriously cruel. Can Corsairs even legally be run in an army right now?

yeah true...
on another note what was a Haemonculus doing on a slaaneshi warship...? i dont like where this is going tbh...


Eh, it's not terribly surprising. Also, not the first time that Haemonculi have engaged non-aggressively with The Emperor's Children. Covens have been known to parley with just about *everybody*… though usually with the intent of backstabbing them later.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2019, 21:29

@Burnage wrote:
Today's fluff update is seriously cruel. Can Corsairs even legally be run in an army right now?

Yes, the FW faq.

FAQ:
 

They are actually really good if you do the 15 venom, 15 unit, 15 blasters list. Its just venon spam with 15 blasters, 60 shardcarbines, and 75 of their pistols (1D6 shots, 1 roll for the unit, in a venom a roll of 5 is 25 shots, poison 4+, 6's to wound are -1ap).

You can also do Falcons instead of Venoms

Transport faq:
 

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Rodi Sikni
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2019, 22:20

@withershadow wrote:
For what it’s worth, the fluff isn’t much better.

Spoiler:
 

I don't have any intention of read the plot of Phoenix Rising, but if someone could tell me the page where this is, I really appreciate this.
Or is it from the book of the box with the miniatures?
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2019, 23:29

@Rodi Sikni wrote:


I don't have any intention of read the plot of Phoenix Rising, but if someone could tell me the page where this is, I really appreciate this.
Or is it from the book of the box with the miniatures?


It's from the boxed set. The duel between Jain Zar and Drazhar is mentioned in the book, but without the details provided in the boxed set booklet.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 22 2019, 00:59

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
Regarding Hellions, I don't think cost is the only issue. There's also the fact that their role is very poorly defined:
- They're T3 models with no defence beyond a 5+ armour save and 6+ FNP - so even basic bolters are going to shred them.
- They have D2 melee weapons but are only S4 with no AP. What targets are they supposed to be aiming for?
- They bring some potentially-decent mid-range shooting, except that Cult has next to nothing to buff it. Plus they're far too fragile to win any firefights.
- They have Hit & Run but (unlike Wyches) lack any ability that would allow them to pin enemies in melee.

Yep, this! Why dont they have a 7th style power lance instead of their crappy weapon?, +2str -2ap on the charge, then once in melee +1str, -1ap. Also give them Dodge in melee b.c they are FREAKING WYCHES after all, but they can FLY, they should be able to freaken dodge.

Dodge + redesign of the weapon, boom i like them.

Man I'd gladly take them if hellglaives had those stats, sure they'd die just as fast to shooting but that's how it works for cults, and they'd seriously smack anything they'd make it into melee with.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 22 2019, 06:22

I scanned the new book looking for something interesting and it just seems like a handful of (even more) retcons mixed with the same thing I've come to expect. Literally everything revolves around the Ynnari, the named characters are everywhere doing everything all the time, and whenever the writers can't figure out how to write the Ynnari characters out of a bad situation they just have the Yncarne show up. Damn do I miss Andy Chambers...

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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 22 2019, 06:26

Is there anything about what vect has been up to...? Anything at all?
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 22 2019, 06:27

Other than putting a bounty on Yvraine's head, no.
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Serpent Fly
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 29 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 22 2019, 07:38

Hellions need help. No one looks at them aesthetically and thinks TANK. So you assume glass cannon or as the lore suggests cheap chaff.

Option 1: Glass hammer - add some AP maybe on 6s to wound, and include an additional attack in profile. Hit and Run is irrelevant as you dont survive melee , so make it advance and charge (let red grief helions also have old hit and run). This way they hit harder and can more reliability get to where they need to. But once they have done that you expect them to die, fine.

Option 2: Street gang chaff - as in the lore these youths are pretty poor and just a nuisance. Drop points to 10, drop Damage to 1, drop hit and run, maybe add -1 AP. I would also like them to be made troops and available to Wych cults AND Kabal. These are your cheap board control units. They are pretty poor at doing any damage, and are super fragile (they are not trained wyches so that's okay). But at 50pts for 5 I could see a nice use for them as early game harassers.
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