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Soulless Samurai
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Soulless Samurai

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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 11:32

@yellabelly wrote:

The rules we've seen aren't bad at all.

I can only assume that you and I have very different concepts of fun then.

Presumably you can't wait to use the new Kabal trait (Toxin Crafters) that only works if you roll every single splinter shot individually. Rolling Eyes


@yellabelly wrote:
You've just got a permanently pessimistic view of everything.

Oh man, I can't think what would have made me pessimistic. Not like every DE codex has stripped out models and options.

Oh nevermind, I was thinking of an alternative universe where that didn't happen. A universe in which I'm probably far more optimistic about GW.


@yellabelly wrote:
We've had a small piece of the puzzle revealed, with no idea how it all fits together.

I mean, GW has given us some pretty big hints.

For example, when I read 'We're copying and pasting the WD Ynnari rules into the new book.', I see that as meaning GW are copying and pasting the WD Ynnari rules into the new book. But apparently many others see that as 'We're totally going to fix Ynnari.'

Likewise, the fact that they mention custom Craftworlds, new powers for all Eldar Exarchs, a new psychic discipline for Eldar and custom Obsessions for Drukhari would seem to be a strong indicator that Drukhari don't have much to look forward to outside of custom Obsessions.

I'd call it reading between the lines but it's not even that. It's literally just reading the line itself.


@yellabelly wrote:
But already you've written it off as a load of rubbish.

I'm not writing it of, I'm simply saying that nothing revealed thus far is of interest to me.

And judging by GW's own statements about what the book will contain, it seems unlikely that this will change.


Believe me, I really hope it does change. I mean, do you think I like seeing the only release DE are likely to get for the next 5 years or so, only for the realisation to gradually dawn that there's simply nothing in it that's of any interest to me?

Look, if it turns out my pessimism was misplaced and GW really were hiding all the good rules (or at least, all the rules that appeal to me), I'll make a dedicated thread just to apologise and admit how wrong I was.

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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 12:29

@Soulless Samurai wrote:


I can only assume that you and I have very different concepts of fun then.

Presumably you can't wait to use the new Kabal trait (Toxin Crafters) that only works if you roll every single splinter shot individually. Rolling Eyes

Must do. My idea of fun is a varied number of rules that I can use to build armies in different styles for both fun and competitive gaming. The variety for fun gaming is definitely going to be there. The variety for competitive gaming needs more reveal before we can conclude one way or another.
And why exactly do you roll every shot individually? You roll them all, pick out the 6's to wound, and you opponent makes his saves against those before making the rest of his saves. It's not complicated, or am I missing something here? It's a very common mechanic where things add AP or damage or whatever else on a 6 to hit or wound.


@Soulless Samurai wrote:


Oh man, I can't think what would have made me pessimistic. Not like every DE codex has stripped out models and options.

Oh nevermind, I was thinking of an alternative universe where that didn't happen. A universe in which I'm probably far more optimistic about GW.  
OK fair enough. I've not been playing Dark Eldar as long as you have, so I haven't gone through the same rough shod treatment of the army to have made me as cynical. However, you do sound like TDC's equivalent of the old guy in the pub, constantly complaing it was better back in the day. You don't seem capable of acknowledging the fact we've had a top drawer codex in 8th edition. Possibly the best mono codex in the game. Some great units, great stratagems, incredible Obsessions available to us. Sure there are areas that need work, but on balance its a great codex we have.

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
 

I mean, GW has given us some pretty big hints.

For example, when I read 'We're copying and pasting the WD Ynnari rules into the new book.', I see that as meaning GW are copying and pasting the WD Ynnari rules into the new book. But apparently many others see that as 'We're totally going to fix Ynnari.'

Likewise, the fact that they mention custom Craftworlds, new powers for all Eldar Exarchs, a new psychic discipline for Eldar and custom Obsessions for Drukhari would seem to be a strong indicator that Drukhari don't have much to look forward to outside of custom Obsessions.

I'd call it reading between the lines but it's not even that. It's literally just reading the line itself.
Games Workshop didn't specifically mention custom Kabal/Cult/Coven traits in the article. They were only mentioned in the designer video. We're still getting them. Once again, you're happy to overlook or ignore the areas where they say there are new datasheets, loads of new rules content, evidence of reworked stratagems, quite possibly new stratagems. The space marine books would seem to be the template thats being followed. I wouldn't bet against a Drukhari version of tactical doctrines to boost the mono-codex benefits. That may be your interpretation, but it's not factually accurate.

@Soulless Samurai wrote:


I'm not writing it of, I'm simply saying that nothing revealed thus far is of interest to me.

And judging by GW's own statements about what the book will contain, it seems unlikely that this will change.


Believe me, I really hope it does change. I mean, do you think I like seeing the only release DE are likely to get for the next 5 years or so, only for the realisation to gradually dawn that there's simply nothing in it that's of any interest to me?

Look, if it turns out my pessimism was misplaced and GW really were hiding all the good rules (or at least, all the rules that appeal to me), I'll make a dedicated thread just to apologise and admit how wrong I was.

I don't doubt you want good rules. I don't doubt you want to enjoy your Dark Eldar again. Of course that's what we all want. As I said, we've seen but a snapshot of Phoenix Rising. You might be right. It might have nothing more for dark eldar than what we've been shown. Maybe what's been shown so far is it - that's all we get. In which case I'd join you in saying it's rubbish. But we have no reason whatsoever to think that, other than adopting that view so we can moan already.

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 12:35

If I remember correctly the previewed successor traits for the space marines were also pretty bad
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Elfric
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 12:39

I didn't realise Drukhari were in such dire straights and these sneak peaks have confirmed we're bottom tier. I was expecting Hex Rifles to one shot Knights at a bare minimum.
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Lord Weston
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 12:45

I also initially discarded the Berserk Fugue and Precise Killers, but then I did the math. Combined against T4 opponents, they generally outperform Strife and sometimes outperform Cursed Blade. Also, they are more useful for Reavers than Cursed Blade.
Here are my results: Wounds caused by a wych

Math is not my strong point I would love to see a breakdown of your working here. I had completely dismissed these out of hand but might be worth a look
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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 12:47

Precise Killers and Test of Skill would make for some fun tank buster Hellion gangs!

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 12:49

@yellabelly wrote:

And why exactly do you roll every shot individually? You roll them all, pick out the 6's to wound, and you opponent makes his saves against those before making the rest of his saves. It's not complicated, or am I missing something here? It's a very common mechanic where things add AP or damage or whatever else on a 6 to hit or wound.

What you're missing is that unless you roll every shot individually, you don't get to pick the order in which your opponent allocates wounds. That's entirely up to him.


@yellabelly wrote:

OK fair enough. I've not been playing Dark Eldar as long as you have, so I haven't gone through the same rough shod treatment of the army to have made me as cynical. However, you do sound like TDC's equivalent of the old guy in the pub, constantly complaing it was better back in the day. You don't seem capable of acknowledging the fact we've had a top drawer codex in 8th edition.

I have acknowledged that our codex is good by tournament standards.

But powerful is not the same as fun.


@yellabelly wrote:

Games Workshop didn't specifically mention custom Kabal/Cult/Coven traits in the article. They were only mentioned in the designer video.

From the Coming Next Week article:

"These include Exarch Power options for each Aspect temple, a third psychic discipline in the Runes of Fortune and new customisable Craftworld Attributes that work like the Successor Tactics in Codex: Space Marines! You’ll also find rules for Drukhari Obsessions (specifically for the Kabals, Wych Cults and Haemonculus Covens)"


@yellabelly wrote:
Once again, you're happy to overlook or ignore the areas where they say there are new datasheets, loads of new rules content, evidence of reworked stratagems, quite possibly new stratagems.

I'm not overlooking evidence. I'm just not willing to assume that any rule I haven't seen will automatically be amazing.


@yellabelly wrote:

I don't doubt you want good rules. I don't doubt you want to enjoy your Dark Eldar again. Of course that's what we all want. As I said, we've seen but a snapshot of Phoenix Rising. You might be right. It might have nothing more for dark eldar than what we've been shown. Maybe what's been shown so far is it - that's all we get. In which case I'd join you in saying it's rubbish. But we have no reason whatsoever to think that, other than adopting that view so we can moan already.

Very well. I will withhold all further complaints until the book is released in full.

Is that acceptable?

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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 13:42

I wasnt too interested in the create a Kabal stuff, I'm more interested to see what stratagems and potentially relics and WL traits we get since having a DIY kabal with only the basic relics would be crap. I'm hoping we get the updated relic strat (infinite relics for 1cp each) and a generic +1 WL trait strat for 1cp on top of Alliance of Agony.
Also do we think we will get a selection of wargear like the marines got we can give to sergeants?
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TSkouboe
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 15:22

@Lord Weston wrote:
I would love to see a breakdown of your working here. I had completely dismissed these out of hand but might be worth a look
I don't think I can write it out briefly enough that it makes sense to put on a forum. I'll try.

The short version is that both Berserk Fugue and Precise Killers are individually much weaker than our current obsessions, but combined they outperform by a bit.

Too-brief explanation:
 
Combined, I calculate them like this:
Calculations:
 

I hope that makes some sense.
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 16:11

@yellabelly wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
Could we at least wait until we've seen all the rules before we complain that we haven't received enough? We're not getting exarch powers or new psychic spells, but we might be getting more updated units than Craftworlders are.
I'm with you on that one Burnage. I'm excited, and the misery on here is completely unfounded right now. Who knows what other obsession options we have, and what other combinations we can make. Much less the fact that there is meant to be loads of rules content in the book, new data sheets for other units and characters, etc. Stratagems have clearly had a rework too, as Torturers Craft has been altered.

@Soulless Samurai wrote:

Alright. I'll pretend for now that GW are keeping all its good rules a closely-guarded secret and are instead attempting to market Phoenix Rising to us by showcasing only the dreariest aspects of it.
The rules we've seen aren't bad at all. You've just got a permanently pessimistic view of everything. We've had a small piece of the puzzle revealed, with no idea how it all fits together. But already you've written it off as a load of rubbish. It may yet prove to be, but you've no way of knowing as of this moment to be giving it the doom and gloom.

Agreed!

People are so salty before they even have close to all the information, and will always look for something to complain about. That will happen after the Awakening is released as well.
Everyone has the right to complain and Express their opinion. But it's also ok to appreciate all the cool stuff DE have and are getting instead of complaining all the time. Why don't we all work together and see what we can do with what we are getting and make the best of it.

We are getting new rules and new ways to play DE! That does not mean all of DEs issues if any will get solved. But that's probably not the point of this update? That would be a cool and appreciated bonus. Why not be excited about the new stuff instead of being so pessimistic so often?
DE are already a powerful army. Yes some units need some reworking and you can't win every game. That is the case with every army.

Let's make Drukhari awesome and work together to find combos and cool tactics together instead of just complaining most of the time. It would be so much much nicer to visit this forum and others without all of the bitching and if we were more supportive and constructive instead.

I am very excited to see what I can do with the new builds available and hopefully some extra updates. Let's talk about what we can do instead of mostly what we can't. And for the things we don't do well we can figure out what to do about it.

Sorry for the poor grammar. Busy at work.





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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 16:47

I get the point already. My opinion is not wanted here.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 17:07

So, https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/10/09/new-rules-jain-zar-vs-drazhargw-homepage-post-2/

Jain Zar doesn't seem to have any changes aside from losing Disarming Strike? That's pretty awful.

Drazhar gets an additional wound, up to 6. He keeps his 5++ though (boooo).

The big news is that Master of Blades is now +1 to wound! Good change.

On the whole, though... not sure there's enough to take either of them here, still. Maybe points reductions will help.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 17:10

Quote :
Drazhar not only shares the Lethal Precision ability of the Incubi (increasing the Damage of an attack by 2 on a wound roll of 6),

So any roll of a 6 for incubi do three wounds?

That is not bad at all, also throw in they wound marines on a 3+, waveserpents on a 4+ and knights on a 5+ if drazahar is near.

Not too bad to be honest. Lets see if the points came down and they increased venoms to hold 6 people.
(not holding my breath!)

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Koldan
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 17:18

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Quote :
Drazhar not only shares the Lethal Precision ability of the Incubi (increasing the Damage of an attack by 2 on a wound roll of 6),

So any roll of a 6 for incubi do three wounds?

That is not bad at all, also throw in they wound marines on a 3+, waveserpents on a 4+ and knights on a 5+ if drazahar is near.

I bet it it a mistake in the article, and not all incubi have it, only still the klaivex.

But something different, haven't they once stated, that keywords are written bold, in Master of Blades Incubi is not bold, so does that mean it does not work on himself? If that is true alot of player will play it wrong. They should have stated it more directly, as it is quite rare to have an aura that works not on the model itself.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 17:20

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Quote :
Drazhar not only shares the Lethal Precision ability of the Incubi (increasing the Damage of an attack by 2 on a wound roll of 6),

So any roll of a 6 for incubi do three wounds?

That is not bad at all, also throw in they wound marines on a 3+, waveserpents on a 4+ and knights on a 5+ if drazahar is near.


I'm pretty sure that Lethal Precision is the klaivex ability... but if it's actually unit-wide, that would be great.
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 18:41

Drazhar is looking really good. That +1 to wound aura is a big help on the Incubi as they will likely have +1 to hit via pfp. Even if he stays at 120 he will be added to my lists some way. Incubi getting a buff would seal it. The 2 damage hits are going to mow down primaris which we will start seeing more of soon.
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 19:01

so drazhar is wounding marines on a 2+ utilizing his aura and most vehicles on a 4+... and with his warlord trait rerolling wounds he looks good actually.
The only thing missing is rerolling those damn hit rolls of 1s for him and his incubi but cant really complain...
not bad really
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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 20:14

@DevilDoll wrote:
so drazhar is wounding marines on a 2+ utilizing his aura and most vehicles on a 4+... and with his warlord trait rerolling wounds he looks good actually.
The only thing missing is rerolling those damn hit rolls of 1s for him and his incubi but cant really complain...
not bad really

If you pop onslaught on him it counter acts the 1's exactly. He basically auto hits on average, which when rolling 12 dice is often. It's not perfect but it is a good answer to the problem for when you REALLY need to shred something. If he kept eternal hatered (god I hope so) he will wreck almost anything you send him after.
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 20:53

I might have missed someone else mentioning it, but in case it hasn't been posted:

Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 71743910

should be about a 30% discount going by our old unit prices and not including any of the books in there.

all in all a much better deal then i thought we would get
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 21:01

Well that article shows the GW does listen to the complaints they get (especially when the unit/units never see play in any capacity except in the "I just want to play them for laughs" fun lists), Drahzars buff ability was completely useless when the first codex first came out and everyone basically said it should be +1 to wound and not hit and now it is, so there is a chance they will listen to the other complaints/suggestions and make change other units as well
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 21:14

@Archon_91 wrote:
Well that article shows the GW does listen to the complaints they get (especially when the unit/units never see play in any capacity except in the "I just want to play them for laughs" fun lists), Drahzars buff ability was completely useless when the first codex first came out and everyone basically said it should be +1 to wound and not hit and now it is, so there is a chance they will listen to the other complaints/suggestions and make change other units as well

They are listening. They don't always change things, but there are clear indications they are reading what we are writing here.
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Ollie
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 21:17

@Archon_91 wrote:
Well that article shows the GW does listen to the complaints they get (especially when the unit/units never see play in any capacity except in the "I just want to play them for laughs" fun lists), Drahzars buff ability was completely useless when the first codex first came out and everyone basically said it should be +1 to wound and not hit and now it is, so there is a chance they will listen to the other complaints/suggestions and make change other units as well

Hopefully that why they included Hellions and Scourges since they both could use some decent buffs...

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
I get the point already. My opinion is not wanted here.
I would rather have us turn into a bunch of negative Nancy's that call GW on the BS, than the LOTR community where we are so starved of updates and new models that anytime something changes, no matter how bad, we praise it in some false hope we might get more attention.
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 21:46

@Archon_91 wrote:
Well that article shows the GW does listen to the complaints they get (especially when the unit/units never see play in any capacity except in the "I just want to play them for laughs" fun lists), Drahzars buff ability was completely useless when the first codex first came out and everyone basically said it should be +1 to wound and not hit and now it is, so there is a chance they will listen to the other complaints/suggestions and make change other units as well

Though it is odd that Jain Zar doesn't appear to have an invul save of any kind (unless they neglected to mention it for some reason). The lack of invul saves on most phoenix lords has been a long-time issue with them.
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 21:54

@krayd wrote:
@Archon_91 wrote:
Well that article shows the GW does listen to the complaints they get (especially when the unit/units never see play in any capacity except in the "I just want to play them for laughs" fun lists), Drahzars buff ability was completely useless when the first codex first came out and everyone basically said it should be +1 to wound and not hit and now it is, so there is a chance they will listen to the other complaints/suggestions and make change other units as well

Though it is odd that Jain Zar doesn't appear to have an invul save of any kind (unless they neglected to mention it for some reason). The lack of invul saves on most phoenix lords has been a long-time issue with them.

Maybe Craftworlders don't complain as loudly as we do Razz
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2019, 21:56

@Burnage wrote:
@krayd wrote:
@Archon_91 wrote:
Well that article shows the GW does listen to the complaints they get (especially when the unit/units never see play in any capacity except in the "I just want to play them for laughs" fun lists), Drahzars buff ability was completely useless when the first codex first came out and everyone basically said it should be +1 to wound and not hit and now it is, so there is a chance they will listen to the other complaints/suggestions and make change other units as well

Though it is odd that Jain Zar doesn't appear to have an invul save of any kind (unless they neglected to mention it for some reason). The lack of invul saves on most phoenix lords has been a long-time issue with them.

Maybe Craftworlders don't complain as loudly as we do Razz

why should they?
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