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Burnage
Hekatrix
Burnage

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PostSubject: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 29 2019, 13:02

From the NOVA Preview:

Quote :
With so much awesome stuff on the way for Warhammer 40,000, you might be wondering what’s happening to some of the treasured older models that previously had rules in our Index books. While these might not have a place in our codexes any more, we know that they definitely have a place in your hearts, which is why you’ll be delighted to hear that we’ll be supporting them FOREVER with Warhammer Legends.

Your Imperial Space Marine? Rules, FOREVER. Your Chaplain on Bike? You can use him until actual Space Marine Chaplains on actual Space Marine bikes are invented in the year 30,000.** And, to top it all off, they’ll be getting points, meaning if that’s how you like to balance your games, we’ve got you covered.  

Every year, we review all of the points values (for all of the units) in Warhammer 40,000. We won’t be doing this for the Warhammer Legends, though. Once we’ve assigned them their final points, they won’t be part of that ongoing balance review – and we won’t be recommending Legends units for competitive tournaments. This means that event organisers and attendees alike can guarantee everything they’re gaming with is easily available and has been subject to the same rigorous balance and playtesting process. Of course, organisers are also free to run Legends events, allowing the use of the full classic range in their games.

So our Index-only units are getting a final points value, and probably won't be useable in most tournaments going ahead. Bloodbrides were already made virtually useless with the Codex, since Wyches were a straight upgrade to them, but it hurts a bit to definitively lose Trueborn.

There's also a chance - although this hasn't been confirmed yet - that this means no more Blaster Archons. Boo.

Oh well. I'm sure we'll get some new units eventually... right?
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Squidmaster
Klaivex
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 29 2019, 13:48

Its was going to happen at some point, but its sad to see yet more units leave our rules entirely (metaphorically).
Maybe if we're lucky, Psychic Awakening will give us something decent. They've now promised new units for us, and plastic Aspect Warriors gives me a little hope.
Granted, the pessimist in me who sat through the dark years of 4th, 5th and 6th edition is worried that we'll be a side note in someone else's campaign book.
But MAYBE. MAYBE. They'll do it right.

We can hope.
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Soulless Samurai
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 29 2019, 13:59

@Burnage wrote:
From the NOVA Preview:

Quote :
With so much awesome stuff on the way for Warhammer 40,000, you might be wondering what’s happening to some of the treasured older models that previously had rules in our Index books. While these might not have a place in our codexes any more, we know that they definitely have a place in your hearts, which is why you’ll be delighted to hear that we’ll be supporting them FOREVER with Warhammer Legends.

Your Imperial Space Marine? Rules, FOREVER. Your Chaplain on Bike? You can use him until actual Space Marine Chaplains on actual Space Marine bikes are invented in the year 30,000.** And, to top it all off, they’ll be getting points, meaning if that’s how you like to balance your games, we’ve got you covered.  

Every year, we review all of the points values (for all of the units) in Warhammer 40,000. We won’t be doing this for the Warhammer Legends, though. Once we’ve assigned them their final points, they won’t be part of that ongoing balance review – and we won’t be recommending Legends units for competitive tournaments. This means that event organisers and attendees alike can guarantee everything they’re gaming with is easily available and has been subject to the same rigorous balance and playtesting process. Of course, organisers are also free to run Legends events, allowing the use of the full classic range in their games.

So our Index-only units are getting a final points value, and probably won't be useable in most tournaments going ahead. Bloodbrides were already made virtually useless with the Codex, since Wyches were a straight upgrade to them, but it hurts a bit to definitively lose Trueborn.

There's also a chance - although this hasn't been confirmed yet - that this means no more Blaster Archons. Boo.

Seems like Blaster Archons will almost certainly go. Because who'd want the leader of a ranged faction to have a meaningful ranged weapon, right? Rolling Eyes

As for Trueborn and Bloodbrides, are we sure they'll even make it into legends? They've already been treated as units without models (otherwise they'd be in the codex to begin with), so I wouldn't be surprised if they just vanished altogether.


@Burnage wrote:
Oh well. I'm sure we'll get some new units eventually... right?

I've heard that sentiment before. And each time GW has removed more units from our book while giving none back.


@Squidmaster wrote:
Its was going to happen at some point, but its sad to see yet more units leave our rules entirely (metaphorically).
Maybe if we're lucky, Psychic Awakening will give us something decent. They've now promised new units for us, and plastic Aspect Warriors gives me a little hope.
Granted, the pessimist in me who sat through the dark years of 4th, 5th and 6th edition is worried that we'll be a side note in someone else's campaign book.
But MAYBE. MAYBE. They'll do it right.

We can hope.

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Wink

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 29 2019, 14:00

@Squidmaster wrote:
They've now promised new units for us

Where was this?
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 29 2019, 14:10

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
As for Trueborn and Bloodbrides, are we sure they'll even make it into legends? They've already been treated as units without models (otherwise they'd be in the codex to begin with), so I wouldn't be surprised if they just vanished altogether.

This obviously isn't a certainty, but I'll assume they'll be treated like Fantasy models were when made into Legends for Sigmar. Dark Elf units that had never had actual official models still wound up getting rules there.

Basically, my expectation is "If there were rules for it in the Index, there'll be rules for it as a Legend." It's just giving you a place to actually get rules for them, since most of the Indexes can't be bought any more, as well as confirming that they can't be used for tournament play.
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Squidmaster
Klaivex
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 30 2019, 09:50

@Burnage wrote:
@Squidmaster wrote:
They've now promised new units for us

Where was this?

Right here:

RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides Nova-Aug29-40k-NewRaceIcons8frs-500x377
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 30 2019, 10:06

Except that they didn't promise new units, only new rules.

They could fulfil that obligation with nothing more than an extra Stratagem. And probably will.

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Serpent Fly
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 30 2019, 12:24

Yep an extra stratagem to Deny one Psykic power a turn. If we are lucky it wont be a "chance to deny" Woop!

I know that trueborn and bloodbrides arent great now but it was nice to have more options tbh. An actual elites choice for both wych and kabal was great. They could have been useful with a few tweaks. Like marine sternguard. Give them an upgrade sprue or something if GW has to have models for them. Just the option to take them in units of 3 or more would make them a great inclusion to many lists imo.

Also the no blaster Archon is arbitrary, there is no model with a venom blade or blast pistol but we can take those! It's the same story with our craftworld cousins, their autarchs are stripped of options too.

I know marines are a starter faction so they have gone for less options. Good for them. But I was flicking through battlescribe and there are so few wargear options it's boring. I'd hate to be that restricted. I just hope come 9th ed options on any units are still a thing.
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Soulless Samurai
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 30 2019, 15:47

@Serpent Fly wrote:

I know that trueborn and bloodbrides arent great now but it was nice to have more options tbh.

I Completely agree.


@Serpent Fly wrote:
They could have been useful with a few tweaks. Like marine sternguard. Give them an upgrade sprue or something if GW has to have models for them. Just the option to take them in units of 3 or more would make them a great inclusion to many lists imo.

I mean, Trueborn would have been perfectly fine with a points drop (they're currently vastly overpriced, compared to similar options in other books - 1pt more than Kabalite Warriors would have been perfectly reasonable). Though having a minimum squad size of 3 or 4 would also have been nice.


@Serpent Fly wrote:

Also the no blaster Archon is arbitrary, there is no model with a venom blade or blast pistol but we can take those! It's the same story with our craftworld cousins, their autarchs are stripped of options too.

I really think having the wargear available within the same model range should be more than sufficient. Especially when, as you say, GW don't even follow their own rule on this.


@Serpent Fly wrote:

I know marines are a starter faction so they have gone for less options. Good for them. But I was flicking through battlescribe and there are so few wargear options it's boring. I'd hate to be that restricted. I just hope come 9th ed options on any units are still a thing.

Same. IMO the customisation aspect is (or was) one of the best things about 40k. Not to mention one of its advantages over other systems with much tighter rulesets.

One of the things I really hate about 8th edition DE is how samey my HQs feel. For all that 7th removed, there was still a bit of customisation to be had. e.g. I might have one Archon with a Shadowfield and another with Soul Trap and Clone Field. It wasn't much but it at least allowed for a bit of customisation beyond basic weapons. Also, because artefacts were less restrictive, I could have a 'gunslinger' Archon with Parasite's Kiss alongside a regular Splinter (or Blast) Pistol. Not powerful but could allow for some fun models.

In contrast, so many times I've made a list and found that, prior to artefacts, my 2 Archons are completely identical. For some reason this really rubs me the wrong way.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 30 2019, 17:29

40K has over time moved from being what was essentially a tabletop RPG with wargaming rules added in (that even recommended a DM!) to a more streamlined wargame. It does make things faster to play and potentially easier to balance, but at the same time I miss the customisation that earlier editions offered. Having the option to just completely load up a character with stuff like a bike, combat drugs and Incubi wargear felt pretty good.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 30 2019, 17:57

@Burnage wrote:
40K has over time moved from being what was essentially a tabletop RPG with wargaming rules added in (that even recommended a DM!) to a more streamlined wargame. It does make things faster to play and potentially easier to balance, but at the same time I miss the customisation that earlier editions offered. Having the option to just completely load up a character with stuff like a bike, combat drugs and Incubi wargear felt pretty good.

I'm not sure I could agree about the loss of customisation making things faster or easier to play.

Given that most army lists are constructed in advance, I can't see most wargear making much of an impact on play speed at all.

But more importantly, it's been replaced with stuff that's far more complex and time-consuming. Look at the number of rerolls, not to mention the number of pointless or near-pointless dice rolls. Orks are an especially good example of this. Let's roll some dice then reroll some of those dice then roll more dice for each 6 then reroll those dice . . . all for a handful of those to actually hit and an even smaller number to actually do anything. This sort of thing seems infinitely more time-consuming than character customisation ever was.

And regarding the idea of reduced complexity, it comes across as rather hollow in the face of CPs, Stratagems, formations, allies, plus the ever-growing mass of supplements, faqs, designer's commentaries, big faqs etc.

Compared to all that, learning a handful of wargear options seems like child's play.


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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 30 2019, 18:29

It's a difference of granularity. Entire armies played very similarly back in 2nd or 3rd editions - if someone was playing a unit of Tactical Marines you knew what they did, but you'd probably have to ask a few times what each of their heroes was capable of because that's where the potential for customisation lay. Nowadays the flexibility and complexity is on the army-wide scale; between two different armies those Tactical Marines could have vastly different capabilities, while once you take into account stuff like Chapter Tactics any two heroes of the same type are probably going to be capable of mostly the same thing.

GW don't exactly always succeed with it, but I can see the game design ideals motivating the switch, especially considering how the average size of games has grown since 2nd and 3rd edition.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 10 2019, 07:24

Coff coff....stratagems that upgrades Kabalitea into Trueborn...coff

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 10 2019, 15:09

I don't think that would work, GW has never balanced a unit by attaching a cp cost to it. Plus trueborn as they were in the index were kinda boring. Cool, more special weapon slots, but that was all they could do. If trueborn were really going to make a return, I'd want to see them get options like they had in 5th edition. Otherwise I'd prefer something completely new.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 10 2019, 15:20

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
I don't think that would work, GW has never balanced a unit by attaching a cp cost to it.

Lots of old units have become stratagems in 8th edition. Chapter Masters, Great Harlequins, Pathfinders off the top of my head. It'd probably mean they'd wind up being something simple though, like being Kabalites or Wyches with +1 to hit.
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 10 2019, 15:45

Splitting the army into two factions is something I actually like and Enjoy, but because they've slowly drained us of everything special and fun, and given nothing in return, expecting us to be happy because we can bring craftworlds, ynead, and harlequins now [I don't like soup btw], that we're in a good spot.

The truth is at the current rate of attrition for our army, by 10th edition, if such a thing ever happens, we'll just be Ravager, the army. Like some people see us. I forgot where I was going with this, but the long story short is I want more units, and better buffs for characters if they have their own subfaction.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 10 2019, 15:46

Mostly characters though, bit harder to cp a unit that should have more wargear options than it's base version. Plus that goes back to my issue with trueborn being uninteresting, just a flat +1 to hit while retaining the wargear options of normal warriors is not really a meaningful choice.

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Pilosocereus
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 10 2019, 15:47

Bring back trueborn, give us a kabalite kit with a few extra bits, or reuse some fantasy moulds, and add all of the options. Ghostplate, better weapons, cool strategems.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 10 2019, 15:50

I'd take a kabalite kit upgrade sprue, but man I do not want an overall new kabalite kit. Our current one is awesome, I don't want to have less pose options like the new CSM kit.

Honestly end of the day though, trueborn are not a priority for me. 5th edition version with options for shardcarbines and melee weapons would be cool, but wouldn't really change much for kabals. Give me something completely new, like castigators.

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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 10 2019, 15:52

Quote :
castigators
?

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 10 2019, 15:55

Read the Path of the Dark Eldar trilogy. They are essentially Dark Eldar wraithguard, but with loads of fun Dark Eldar tech thrown on.

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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 11 2019, 23:36

Castigstors would be awesome
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 04:01

All they have to do with Bloodbrides is make them a unit of Hekatrix with full Hekatrix options. Or, if that is too extreme, make the 3 max Wych Weapons also be Agonizers, Power Swords, etc.

If you think this is extreme, you likely don't realize how a similar set up exists in most armies.
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 06:33

Yep it's just a basic vet squad , like so many factions who also have a vet squad but no special kit for them.

Also if they made them a unit of 4+ to squeeze into a venom with the succubus that would be great. They are her top picked hekatrix who are supposed to stick with her in battle.
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PostSubject: Re: RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides   RIP Trueborn and Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 13 2019, 10:34

I think GW has no idea how make their new minaitures.
So they have bandonned Trueborn and and Bloodbrides.

Actually we must make do with Scourges and Grotesque (Incubi?).

And today I don't want units of 4+.
We need GW gives use Venom and Raiders with Transport capacity of 6 and 11
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