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 1500pts Kabal/Cult feat Hellions, Reavers and Tantalus

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Pippolele
Hellion
Pippolele

Posts : 41
Join date : 2018-04-09
Location : Saudi Arabia

1500pts Kabal/Cult feat Hellions, Reavers and Tantalus Empty
PostSubject: 1500pts Kabal/Cult feat Hellions, Reavers and Tantalus   1500pts Kabal/Cult feat Hellions, Reavers and Tantalus I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 21 2019, 22:59

INTRO

I've got the content of a Kabal Start Collecting box, a Cult start collecting box and Gangs of Commorragh box.
My goal is to make them into a cohesive force with minimal addition of models and not exceed 1500pts
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WHAT DO I HAVE

1 Archon,
10 Warriors
1 Succubus
10 Wyches
12 Reavers
10 Hellions
1 Raider
1 Venom
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BRAINSTORMING

I want to have a battalion and for that I need one more HQ and one more Troop choice. Be it Kabal or Cult. If I go Cult then I only have enough models for a Kabal Patrol. Not good. If I go Kabal Battalion, I can make Cult into an Outrider Detachment. So Kabal it is: +1 Archon +5Warriors.

10 Hellions, 12 Reavers and 15 warriors on raider and venom. The list is fast but my 10 wyches are foot slogging it. Not good. +1 Raider it is.

At this point I have everything embarked, the reavers could be given +1T to add to threat saturation yet my Hellions will get blast to pieces before they can see any action. Not good.
How do I deliver 10 Hellions so that they get to shoot and charge at least once in a game?
Enter the Tantalus!

Now everything is embarked (including characters) and the minimum Toughness my opponent gets to face is T5

Let's blend all of it into a 1500 pt list:

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THE LIST: 1500pts

>Battalion - Black Heart Kabal<

HQ
Archon: Venom Blade, Splinter Pistol, Warlord: Labyrinthine Cunning - 72pts
Archon: Venom Blade, Splinter Pistol, Writ of the living muse - 72pts

TROOPS
5 Warriors: Blaster - 47pts
5 Warriors: Blaster - 47pts
5 Warriors: Blaster - 47pts

TRANSPORTS
Raider: Dark  Lance - 85pts
Raider: Dark  Lance - 85pts
Venom: Splinter Cannon and Rifle - 65pts

HEAVY SUPPORT
Tantalus - 400pts

>Outrider - Cult of Strife<

HQ
Succubus: Archite Glaive and Agoniser - 54pts

TROOPS
5 Wyches: Shardnet and Impaler - 45pts
5 Wyches: Shardnet and Impaler - 45pts

FAST ATTACK
5 Hellions - 70pts
5 Hellions - 70pts
12 Reavers: 4 Blasters - 296pts


CP: 9 (5+1+3)
Dark Light:
2 Dark Lances
7 Blasters
5/6/8 Disintegrators (Tantalus 2 pulse disintegrators are equivalent to 5 Dissies against T4, 6 Dissies against T8 and 8 Dissies against T7)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WHY Black Heart?

As a centerpiece for my army the Tantalus influences how I will play my list: With a hefty point tag and a squishy cargo it "puts so many eggs into one basket it will draw fire from the Empire vs Dwarfs game from the nearby Warhammer Age of Sigmar table" cit.

I first considered two options for its survivability:

Option A) Put it in a Red Grief Detachment and charge first turn alongside Reavers
Option B) Put it in a Cult of Strife and Deep Strike + Fire again stratagem

Let's rule out Option A as it offers no protection against going second.
I also don't like Option B as I'll miss out on an entire turn of firing and an additional turn of charging.

Maybe I am looking at it wrong. What if I actually want my opponent to throw everything and the kitchen sink at it?

Option C) Give it inured to suffering through Black Heart Obsessions and pop lightning fast reflexes.
Mathammer tells me that the two things combined bring its survivability up from 17 Las Cannon shots to 27 shots needed to down it. Me likes! albino

That's all shots that don't go into my reavers, raiders and venom. Perfect!

WHY Strife?

Cursed Blade doesn't benefit Reavers
Red Grief only benefits Reavers in the first round
Strife benefits everyone!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DOUBTS:

>Reavers
I am highly unsure how to play the Reavers:

Big unit to benefit from high Toughness?
Multiple small units with Grav Talons to support charges and/or lock firebases?
Mobile Blaster platforms?

>Drugs:
Reavers - +1T
Hellions - +1A
Hellions - ??
Wyches - +1S
Wyches - +2M/Roll/??
Succub  - +1WS/Roll/??


>What goes where?

5 Warriors in Venom
2x5 Warriors in Raider
10 Wyches in Raider
3xCharacters in Tantalus
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

REQUIRED PURCHASES:

Tantalus - Want to convert it from an Akhelian Leviadon!
Archon - Will convert from Crew of Leviadon
Raider - Will purchase
5 Warriors - Will convert from Crew of Raiders

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SHOW NO MERCY

Give me what you've got fellow Archons!
Make me a better Warlord!


Last edited by Pippolele on Tue Aug 27 2019, 12:52; edited 2 times in total
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SibleyIrresistible
Slave
SibleyIrresistible

Posts : 8
Join date : 2015-12-26
Location : California

1500pts Kabal/Cult feat Hellions, Reavers and Tantalus Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1500pts Kabal/Cult feat Hellions, Reavers and Tantalus   1500pts Kabal/Cult feat Hellions, Reavers and Tantalus I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 26 2019, 22:55

Hey Pippolele!
As a warning, I dont have a ton of 8e play experience, but I'm happy to bounce ideas and theorycraft around. The Tantalus is really tough and beefy compared to Drukhari standards. Also it's extra beefy the smaller point games you play. Black heart saving throw will matter. As you build the army, maybe work towards both detachments being Batallions for more CP.

I have a random assortment of concepts and questions related to your models!
1. If you put all of the hellions in 1 unit, they can all benefit from a useful drug together and become a better target for strategems (No method of death beyond our grasp or hyperstim backlash for even more attacks?). This could keep you from having to take a mediocre combat drug.

2. Writ of the living muse Archon has to be outside of a transport to provide the aura, and doesn't provide the aura to units inside of transports. Though if he ever buffs the Tantalus it will be glorious.

3. Your unit of 5 wyches wont see a huge benefit from that +1 str. They have a lot of attacks, but wont survive long. Hint: charge with the wych raider before charging with the wyches inside to eat up the overwatch so they can get into combat at full squad size.

4. Instead of #1 you could try splitting the reavers to get enough combat drugs slots to choose repeats after 6. Then you can use the less good drugs on the units you think benefit the least.

5. Generally cult of strife is better when you have a higher model count? I think it's useful still, and has decent stratagem for you. But if you think Red Grief only happens one turn first round... the cult of strife attack bonus is only on the charging etc turn. Not a lot of abilities effect movement, and the difference between a failed charge and success is huge and can land you some turn one charges depending on deployment. It also makes the Succubus into a real killer with Blood Glaive and hyper swift reflexes.

Ok I'm tired of typing on my phone. Take all of this with a grain of salt. If you could play often, I'd suggest trying it different ways.
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Pippolele
Hellion
Pippolele

Posts : 41
Join date : 2018-04-09
Location : Saudi Arabia

1500pts Kabal/Cult feat Hellions, Reavers and Tantalus Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1500pts Kabal/Cult feat Hellions, Reavers and Tantalus   1500pts Kabal/Cult feat Hellions, Reavers and Tantalus I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 27 2019, 12:38

@SibleyIrresistible wrote:

Hey Pippolele!
As a warning, I dont have a ton of 8e play experience, but I'm happy to bounce ideas and theorycraft around.
That makes the two of us!

@SibleyIrresistible wrote:
As you build the army, maybe work towards both detachments being Batallions for more CP.
I can include one more succubus and one more squad of wyches to reach double battalion at 1500pts by cutting blasters from reavers and removing all upgrades from all units (save blasters from warriors). Also all of my characters would be footslogging it..
Net result: -4 Blasters (-29% dark light power) for +4CP, one Succubus, one Wych squad.
What do you think?


@SibleyIrresistible wrote:
I have a random assortment of concepts and questions related to your models!
Thanks for your engagement!

@SibleyIrresistible wrote:

1. If you put all of the hellions in 1 unit, they can all benefit from a useful drug together and become a better target for strategems (No method of death beyond our grasp or hyperstim backlash for even more attacks?). This could keep you from having to take a mediocre combat drug.
4. Instead of #1 you could try splitting the reavers to get enough combat drugs slots to choose repeats after 6. Then you can use the less good drugs on the units you think benefit the least.

Or I could combine the two wych units into one to further reduce dispensing bad drugs at all.
Heck, I could even renounce the outrider detachment and combine all Hellions and all Reavers into on patrol detachment.

To recap: I can split my Cult units in as many as 9 or as little as 4 units.

Let's explore the extremes:

4 units: I loose one CP, no bonus attacks from extra champions
Succubus: +1WS
Wyches: +1S
Reavers: +1T
Hellions: +1A

9 units: +1CP, +5 attacks from additional champions
Succubus: +1D
Wyches 1: +1S
Wyches 2: +1WS
Hellions 1: +2M
Hellions 2: +1A
Reavers 1: +1T
Reavers 2: +1T
Reavers 3: +1T
Reavers 4: +1T

Going concentrated has the advantage of the best drugs and bigger unit size for stratagems. It minimizes Killpoints and improves deployment drops. It looses me 1CP though and a bunch of "free" attacks. Not too bad overall!

Going super wide minimizes Morale, increases number of threats, gets me 1CP and a bunch of "free" attacks. It increases kill points, hands out suboptimal drugs and looses stratagem potential. Not convinced about this one.

Let's look at something closer to your idea: 7 units

Succubus: +1D
Wyches: +1S
Hellions: +1A
Reaver1: +2M
Reaver2: +1T
Reaver3: +1WS
Reaver4: +1T

+1CP (outrider), suboptimal drugs, higher number of drops and killpoints. switches stratagem targets from Reavers to Hellions.

@SibleyIrresistible wrote:

2. Writ of the living muse Archon has to be outside of a transport to provide the aura, and doesn't provide the aura to units inside of transports. Though if he ever buffs the Tantalus it will be glorious.

That's the goal: Give aura to Tantalus and two raiders to recreate the triple ravager castle. It would be the equivalent of 7 Disintegrator cannons vs 9. (Tantalus is equivalent to 5 Dissies).

@SibleyIrresistible wrote:

3. Your unit of 5 wyches wont see a huge benefit from that +1 str. They have a lot of attacks, but wont survive long.
I don't think any drug will keep the alive much longer. I might as well focus on their attack.

@SibleyIrresistible wrote:

Hint: charge with the wych raider before charging with the wyches inside to eat up the overwatch so they can get into combat at full squad size.
Excellent advise, thank you!


@SibleyIrresistible wrote:

5. Generally cult of strife is better when you have a higher model count? I think it's useful still, and has decent stratagem for you. But if you think Red Grief only happens one turn first round... the cult of strife attack bonus is only on the charging etc turn. Not a lot of abilities effect movement, and the difference between a failed charge and success is huge and can land you some turn one charges depending on deployment. It also makes the Succubus into a real killer with Blood Glaive and hyper swift reflexes.

I am thinking of playing Red Grief indeed:

Remove Blasters from Reavers and add 1 Scourge unit with Haywire.
This frees up the reavers to all HtH all the time from T1
Give Hellions +2 M and have them charge from the Tantalus T1:
3 Disembark + 14 Move + 2 Drug + 1d6 Advance + 2d6 rerollable charge = ~ guaranteed 24 inch charge and average 30" charges!

@SibleyIrresistible wrote:

Ok I'm tired of typing on my phone. Take all of this with a grain of salt. If you could play often, I'd suggest trying it different ways.
Thank you for your feedback!
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PostSubject: Re: 1500pts Kabal/Cult feat Hellions, Reavers and Tantalus   1500pts Kabal/Cult feat Hellions, Reavers and Tantalus I_icon_minitime

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