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krayd
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PostSubject: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 08 2019, 18:27

By now, I'm sure that many of you have seen (or if you haven't, take a look over at the WC site) the previews of the upcoming Space Marine codex. They are getting a *lot* of new rules and unit support. Do we need to deal with marines any differently now? Are they a significantly greater concern?

I have to say, I think that they definitely needed a buff of some sort - at the last tourney I attended, I faced two marine lists (Blood Angels and Crimson Fists); in both games, either my opponent conceded or was tabled by round 3. However, I wonder if maybe GW has buffed them a bit *too* much this time... or maybe not. What do you think? How do we deal with the new marines, if not just the same way as before?
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 09 2019, 01:09

I think this is a sign of what's coming for the game (as they mentioned in one of the posts that chaos marines would be getting a very similar treatment) ... so expect similar changes to every faction ... as for how to deal with them... for now it doesn't look like we need to deal with them much differently ... shoot them a lot and use our speed to keep them at a distance after the first doctrine is switched to tactical then assault doctrine ... and get turn 1 charges to keep them from using the Devastator doctrine as much as possible ... but I still think a field full of dissies and such will do the trick
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 09 2019, 14:32

I actually think it *may* make things a little easier for us. My biggest problem against Marines has been getting turn 1 charges. If they deploy a lot of Phobos units, I could see getting into charges must faster.

Disintegrators could see increased value if more people use Primaris, as they chew through them as a perfect target.

Snipers are a bit scary, but I've usually kept characters in vehicles or out of LOS. The shots that ignore LOS don't ignore the shadowfield.

The bonuses to AP don't really matter to us. Vehicles and Coven all have invulnerable saves.

If the Marines hit back, it could hurt a little. But that just means we need to hit them in combat first.

I think we got a subtle buff honestly. We match up well and there will probably be more marine players.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 09 2019, 14:56

@Archon_91 wrote:
so expect similar changes to every faction

I'll believe that when I see it.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 09 2019, 15:45

A big part of the reason that we have a good match-up against Marines currently is that they're incredibly weak in general, I think it's way too early to say that we're getting a buff against them. We'll be killing them at the same rate (or slightly slower) than we do right now, but they'll have a lot more toys to use against us.

Bolters in particular scare me with the added AP. Stuff like Hurricane Bolters in a Gulliman gunline will absolutely shred our vehicles.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 09 2019, 16:09

Actually, Iron Hands full veichles FW army is the only thing that will mess with my style.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 09 2019, 20:59

@Souless Samurai ... i didnt mean "expect every army to get these awesome new rules" I meant "this points to every army will see some new rules, at least one supplemental codex, and possibly a new unit or two by the end of next year or so" ... and we have seen this happen before, the beginning of 8th (not counting the time with the indexs) with Space marines being the first codex out basically showed us how the setup was going to be, with chapter/obsession/ect army wide rules. Chapter specific relics, warlord traits, and stratagems ... even sweeping unit/weapon points decreases from index to codex (in general not specific), I don't expect to get as much as poster child and evil twin, but we will get some of it
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 09 2019, 21:02

The pace of releases has slowed waaaay down and we're historically near the back of the line when it comes to factions getting updates. I'll be very pleasantly surprised if there's a Codex Drukhari v2 or any supplements for us in 2020.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 11 2019, 00:08

@Archon_91 wrote:
@Souless Samurai ... i didnt mean "expect every army to get these awesome new rules" I meant "this points to every army will see some new rules, at least one supplemental codex, and possibly a new unit or two by the end of next year or so" ... and we have seen this happen before, the beginning of 8th (not counting the time with the indexs) with Space marines being the first codex out basically showed us how the setup was going to be, with chapter/obsession/ect army wide rules. Chapter specific relics, warlord traits, and stratagems ... even sweeping unit/weapon points decreases from index to codex (in general not specific), I don't expect to get as much as poster child and evil twin, but we will get some of it

I know what you meant and I'm calling it now that we'll be getting what we always get - bugger all.

"So, you know how we spent the last 4 editions surgically removing almost half the content from the Dark Eldar codex?"
"Yeah, I'm still not sure we removed enough."
"Well, do you think we should maybe throw them a bone?"
"Don't be stupid, man! That will throw off our release schedule entirely! Why, Marines haven't got a new unit in at least a month! Besides, we've still haven't finished the Bigger Marines (TM) and Roman Marines (TM) lines. I'm sure Dark Eldar players can wait at least another two editions for an extra HQ choice. And do they really need Venoms? I feel they're just cluttering up our sprues..."

I'd like to be wrong about this. I really would. But I'm calling it now that DE will not get an updated codex in 8th, nor any new models.

Because some things just don't change.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 11 2019, 13:30

Honestly I hope so. I love this Codex Smile

Anyway, I even hope that this super treatment will be for SM Only. They are the Spartans of the 40k, I hope they will be the only one super-army of the game.

Otherwise, it will be a second 7th edition, and I will be kinda upset to watch this beautiful 8th ed sinking down in the same way.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 11 2019, 15:15

@Cerve wrote:
Honestly I hope so. I love this Codex Smile

I fear that makes one of us.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 21 2019, 13:17

It is not perfect, but it is the best DE Codex ever maded in my opinion, almost since 5th. I don't know the 3rd one tought.

The only thing that bug me is the double Archon. I would prefer an Archon and a Dracon, maybe, but overall it's a great Codex!
The best one before Space Marines (now it is the 2nd, I must admit that).
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 21 2019, 13:49

@Cerve wrote:
It is not perfect, but it is the best DE Codex ever maded in my opinion, almost since 5th. I don't know the 3rd one tought.

The only thing that bug me is the double Archon. I would prefer an Archon and a Dracon, maybe, but overall it's a great Codex!
The best one before Space Marines (now it is the 2nd, I must admit that).

8th is best in terms of us being a competitive army, 5th was best in terms of us feeling like a fully fleshed out faction.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 21 2019, 13:53

Mmm...I'm not sure about that. Pain Tokens weren't so good after all. It is silly that only the unit who make the kill was able to enjoy the pain....and in game, I remember the trick to give 3 Pain Tokens to 20 Hellions as simple coins.

Plus, Vect is too big to let him deploy into any battle. But ohter HQs were nice, I agree. I miss them.
Who remembers the Duke? Smile
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 21 2019, 23:13

@Burnage wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
It is not perfect, but it is the best DE Codex ever maded in my opinion, almost since 5th. I don't know the 3rd one tought.

The only thing that bug me is the double Archon. I would prefer an Archon and a Dracon, maybe, but overall it's a great Codex!
The best one before Space Marines (now it is the 2nd, I must admit that).

8th is best in terms of us being a competitive army, 5th was best in terms of us feeling like a fully fleshed out faction.

This.


@Cerve wrote:
Mmm...I'm not sure about that. Pain Tokens weren't so good after all. It is silly that only the unit who make the kill was able to enjoy the pain

I don't see why that's strange, honestly.

And while Pain Tokens weren't necessarily powerful they were a lot more interesting than the current mechanic - where we just have a boring pain table that increases each turn regardless of what's actually happening in game.

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TSkouboe
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 22 2019, 06:36

@krayd wrote:
Do we need to deal with marines any differently now?
(...)
I wonder if maybe GW has buffed them a bit *too* much this time
What is your greatest concern?

I'm personally a little worried for my Ravager babysitter Archon.
Also, as Primaris grow better, I fear my Wyches will be worse choice.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2019, 15:41

@TSkouboe wrote:
@krayd wrote:
Do we need to deal with marines any differently now?
(...)
I wonder if maybe GW has buffed them a bit *too* much this time
What is your greatest concern?

I'm personally a little worried for my Ravager babysitter Archon.
Also, as Primaris grow better, I fear my Wyches will be worse choice.

It's a combination of everything - shock attack, bolter weapon buffs (on the new units), combat doctrines - it seems like they are now optimized to completely shred everything we field, at range AND in cc.
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2019, 16:49

I think the counter punch from Marines will hurt a lot more than in previous iterations. But they still die just as quickly as before.

This may see Incubi have a place in lists again.

Disintegrators are amazing against old and new Marines. Grotesques and Talos are still durable as they ignore the bonus AP Marines get. Elves are still more mobile than Marines. Against basic Intercessors, our Venoms and Raiders still have the same durability.

The main boost to Marines is additional AP that we generally ignore with invulnerables. They also get a bonus attack in melee, which will hurt, but we still have the mobility advantage to choose when the fight happens.

We should be good.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2019, 16:57

@Myrvn wrote:
This may see Incubi have a place in lists again.

Why?

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2019, 18:10

Not all lists by any stretch, but people using Wyches may be interested in Incubi due to A and AP. I still like Wyches, even if not ideal, but if the meta shifts to having more power armor, I could see a place for Incubi.
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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 24 2019, 12:51

So, I am going to shamelessly promote an Article I wrote - it is looking at the new SM dex through the eyes of Eldar - seeing what has changed and what are of greater impact to Eldar.

I would say the biggest threat is going to be massed units of Intercessors. They now have several different builds, and all can be quite effective against us. Also, Chaplains. They are a huge force multiplier now and very customizable.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 28 2019, 15:50

Nice review, for the most part I agree with your assessment. I think the strongest counter marines in general have always had against dark eldar is just spamming bolters at our vehicles. Given even just a basic bolter can have ap-1, and the ease with which marines can get rapid fire even at long ranges, I think bolter spam fired at our vehicles could hurt. I do find however the majority of players I face have a mental block on using low strength weapons on our transports, I guess the fact that they are vehicles discourages some people from using bolters and the like on raiders/venoms. We'll see if that lasts.

One thing I do disagree with you on though is the invictor tactical warsuit. If the marine player gets first turn, that flamer has a solid chance to wreck a venom, and then charge something else and wreck another transport in melee. Sure it's not gonna last long after that, it is very vulnerable to blasters but it's potential to cause damage turn 1 can't be ignored. An opponent taking 3 of them would be a pain.

Other thing about facing marines, the shock assault change is a bit rough for wych cults. Any primaris unit is pumping out a fair number of attacks into wyches, and massed s4 hurts them. That being said, if most players stick to 5 man squads of intercessors and similar sized squads of other primaris marines, that is less of a concern to me. It's more that in a pinch, all marines are a bit more potent in melee.

Overall, the update will definetly make marines a much more potent foe as they should be, but I don't really think it's going to fundamentally change how I deal with them. Disintegrator cannons and macro-scalpels still love facing primaris marines.

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Serpent Fly
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 28 2019, 16:06

With Incubi the AP is nice, but there are plenty of ways for our opponents to get past their 3+ sv. Plus with incubi only doing 1D with their klaives means its still tough for us to kill primaris (except the Champion I know but that's one guy on a 6 to wound). For me point for point I'd still take wyches.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 28 2019, 16:53

Shock assault seems to be less of a reason to take Incubi to me. Yes the ap is nice, but they are still only wounding on 4s, not terribly impressive, and +3 armor is good but won't last that long against lots of s4 attacks. I agree, I'd still rather have wyches for twice the wounds and the ability to tie stuff in melee, which will really matter against ultramarine gunlines.

That being said, I still take 5 incubi often because I love the models, but that has nothing to do with their combat abilities.

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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: New challenges facing space marines   New challenges facing space marines I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 29 2019, 01:30

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Nice review, for the most part I agree with your assessment. I think the strongest counter marines in general have always had against dark eldar is just spamming bolters at our vehicles. Given even just a basic bolter can have ap-1, and the ease with which marines can get rapid fire even at long ranges, I think bolter spam fired at our vehicles could hurt. I do find however the majority of players I face have a mental block on using low strength weapons on our transports, I guess the fact that they are vehicles discourages some people from using bolters and the like on raiders/venoms. We'll see if that lasts.

One thing I do disagree with you on though is the invictor tactical warsuit. If the marine player gets first turn, that flamer has a solid chance to wreck a venom, and then charge something else and wreck another transport in melee. Sure it's not gonna last long after that, it is very vulnerable to blasters but it's potential to cause damage turn 1 can't be ignored. An opponent taking 3 of them would be a pain.

Other thing about facing marines, the shock assault change is a bit rough for wych cults. Any primaris unit is pumping out a fair number of attacks into wyches, and massed s4 hurts them. That being said, if most players stick to 5 man squads of intercessors and similar sized squads of other primaris marines, that is less of a concern to me. It's more that in a pinch, all marines are a bit more potent in melee.

Overall, the update will definetly make marines a much more potent foe as they should be, but I don't really think it's going to fundamentally change how I deal with them. Disintegrator cannons and macro-scalpels still love facing primaris marines.

Thanks for the feedback Lord Asvaldir. I do agree the invictor could be semi deadly, but in that scenario it is barely making even on its points. I simply feel that after marine players run it a half dozen times, it will start gathering dust. I guess it could be more than a 1 out of 5 though....

It will certainly be interesting to see how marine players tactics change with this. As for the massed bolters killing our raiders.... I try to keep that a closely guarded secret Smile If my opponents ever figured that out, I'd have to be a bit more careful with them!
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