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Sarcron
Kabalite Warrior
Sarcron

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PostSubject: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 08 2019, 05:33

So... some of this new space marine stuff looks pretty good. Me and a friend were discussing, and without trying to sound too salty, it's a bit over the top. Let me rant for a bit.

"the first enemy unit to move within 3″ of the haywire mine risks suffering D3 mortal wounds (or D3+1 if it’s a Vehicle) before the mine is then removed. "

Is this really a haywire mine? I feel like they just have Imperium a way to MW spam. And even then, why do this when, to my knowledge, the balancing thing for most haywire is that it does near-nothing against non-vehicles.

"it’s also a nifty transport option for your Primaris Space Marines, able to bear six models (perfect for shifting a squad of five and an accompanying Character)"

Really? I feel like a good amount of this site has been wishlisting for a while that we could fit a character and squad in a transport. Does this mean we can see that happening for the future?

"been ramped up – for starters, they’re now all Strength 5!

Alternatively, you can assemble your Eliminators with las fusils, which are the first dedicated anti-tank weapons for your Primaris infantry."

S8 ap-3 and D3 on snipers with hard to hit... Is it only me that feels like Marines are about to be better than T'au at gunlines?

"simply withdraw (after firing Overwatch for good measure). Your opponent’s unit will be left exposed, ready to gun down or counter-charge at your leisure while your Eliminators mock (and shoot) them from a safe distance!"

What. And now they can almost say no to charges?...

"At the start of any of your turns (after the first), you can choose to change from the Devastator Doctrine to the Tactical Doctrine, and again on a later turn, from the Tactical Doctrine to the Assault Doctrine."

Which sums up to; depending on how far away you are, give all of your army a bonus of 1 to their ap.

And that's not to mention the unveiled new chapter tactics. Upon release of this, either everything is going to take a hike up in points, or Marines are suddenly going to be closer to the top of the table.

Anyway. Rant over. Discuss. Have a good one.

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Lord Weston
Hellion
Lord Weston

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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 08 2019, 08:18

This is just the fairly inevitable return of the poster boys to the top of the meta pile by the looks of it. Currently the improvements and boosts look huge but marines did need the attention
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Gizamaluke
Sybarite
Gizamaluke

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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 08 2019, 08:27

Since the releases started coming I've been thinking of revamping my DE lists in preparation for fighting Marines which make up 90% of my opponents (for the last few months I've been playing Ynnari Harlequins and still trashing them), I cant see my harleys doing too well against an army that can evade charges and blow up d3 20pt dudes if I try to play the objective game.

Land Mines; I see what they're trying to do and it's an interesting idea but flies in the face of playing Objectives since you can end up crippling yourself so it becomes "Can I table them or do I need to flood the board with cheap dudes to soak up mortal wounds". Not a great premise.

Marines getting the first Assault Vehicle, with a 4++ and a superior Void Mine with an extra seat is probably my biggest annoyance, the thing better be +200pts because it's ridiculous, but with current pts costing itll probably be 110pts.

I missed the strength 5 thing, is that on all Primaris? If so that's pretty ridiculous in combination with the free extra attack they now get but they were wounding us on 3s anyway.

Eliminators are my biggest concern and it upsets me to see them scavenging rules from the Eldar to give to marines again. A friend was saying they can quite easily get +2 to hit and +1 to wound with no CP usage; my Hope's are that the wording says if the unit cant overwatch it cant fall back and to charge them with Banshees, Vexator Mask and Starmist Raiment or that my opponents place them up in ruins where I can charge from below with Quins.

The Doctrines seem fine, we live on invul saves anyway, probably the least egregious of buffs (though we have yet to see the chapter specific doctrines).

I'm hoping that Black Heart Airwing, Black Heart Batallion and Flayed Skull Batallion will be sufficient firepower to deal with Marines. Considering they now can negate deepstrike charges and shredder scourges I've omitted Mandrakes and Scourges from my lists til I've seen what my friends are fielding, staying away from Coven aswell til I've seen how much MW output they have.
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 08 2019, 08:53

Reading all the buffs for SM reminds me of the days of 3e when I played BA and my only regular opponent was a SW player. Whatever I had, his army had something slightly better and usually cheaper.

I've got a devastator squad with 4 missile launchers.
Mine's got 5 missile launchers

My power swords give +1S
Mine give +1S and +1A

My lightning claws have got 3 claws
Mine have got 4 (and had better rules)

Etc, etc.

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Sarcron
Kabalite Warrior
Sarcron

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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 08 2019, 09:08

@Gizamaluke wrote:


I missed the strength 5 thing, is that on all Primaris? If so that's pretty ridiculous in combination with the free extra attack they now get but they were wounding us on 3s anyway.

Ah, probably should have put more into that quote. It was saying all the rounds of the eliminators can target characters, and all of the rounds are now base strength 5. Pretty much meant very good anti-character for marines, which was not something I am look forward to.

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Last edited by Sarcron on Thu Aug 08 2019, 09:09; edited 1 time in total
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 08 2019, 09:08

Yeah, it kinda bugged me when I saw the new Iron Hands chapter tactic and my first response was "So they get Black Heart Vehicles, Iyanden Vehicles, T'au overwatch oh and cult of Strife extra attack all in one, no power creep though"
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 08 2019, 12:05

I don't mind them wanting to make SM powerful on the tabletop as long as they are costed appropriately. They won't be though, because GW needs to sell models...

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Burnage
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 08 2019, 12:18

This is what bugs me; our traits are overloaded, but they also come with very obvious drawbacks. Power From Pain gives us a ton of buffs but only strongly benefits melee units in the late game. Obsessions only apply to very specific parts of our army, and not all of our units can even get access to them at all!

The new Space Marine stuff, on paper, feels equally powerful as the best parts of our traits... except it sounds like you can tailor your list so that everything in the army gains those benefits, even moreso if you start diving into creating your own chapter.

It's the first time in this edition that GW feels like it's really doubled down on the power creep. We shouldn't have too many problems against them - Disintegrator spam is still going to be Disintegrator spam - but it's very clearly a huge boost for the Marines.
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 09 2019, 00:45

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Reading all the buffs for SM reminds me of the days of 3e when I played BA and my only regular opponent was a SW player. Whatever I had, his army had something slightly better and usually cheaper.

I've got a devastator squad with 4 missile launchers.
Mine's got 5 missile launchers

My power swords give +1S
Mine give +1S and +1A

My lightning claws  have got 3 claws
Mine have got 4 (and had better rules)

Etc, etc.
this is how all SW/BA/DA players feel now
oh you have 6 psychic powers? i have 18
you only have one chapter tactic? pathetic i have the combination of up to 19
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 09 2019, 06:29

How many folks have had trouble beating Marines on the table top? Even with all of these boosts, I think DE will match up well against them. The bonuses are definitely awesome on paper, but I was always a little giddy if I lined up against a table of power armor.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 09 2019, 17:51

Honestly, the only time that I've *ever* been afraid of facing marines was in 7th ed... specifically toward the end of 7th ed, when all marine armies were composed of formations which gave them ridiculous buffs for free. Even then, I was only a *little bit* afraid.
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 09 2019, 18:04

I had a regular opponent in 6th and 7th that I would beat 80% of the time. But when he used the free drop pods (2600 vs my 2000), I don't think I beat him once.
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 09 2019, 18:45

TTT Posted a pic on Instagram for their upcoming ultramarines preview game and worked out that the models in the pic come to around 2100pts, so they're likely getting pts reductions too. Also 10 grav devs and 2 drop pods, so maybe Grav and Pods got buffed too.
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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 12 2019, 18:36

Some of what we know:

Basic Marines dropped 1 pt

Drop pods can come in turn 1 in matched play

Grav weapons have 1 pt strat that allows re-roll wound and damage rolls

Null zone is now wrap charge 7 instead of 8
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Archon Rievect
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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 28 2019, 21:01

I recently played a club member and he ran a cheesy new all primaris marine list(i think it was iron hands) with the new bolter rules, devastator doctrine turn 1, assaault doctrine turn 2... against my Chaos Marines and well I did not even bother taking my turn 2 that is how bad it was...

Some notes of import-
Over all- NO COVER SAVES against his army/chapter list- his stuff shoots through everything apparently

Turn 1-
Lascannon is -4ap
Bolter is -1 to save
Bolters are 30" range

6 man aggressor unit -have 3 wounds each, bolters and whatever the f missiles-- if the unit does not move-about 120 shots per turn

Ran chapter master(?) and some cheese ass stratagem or something where he rerolled misses, a bolter hit roll of 6 auto generated a free hit(so was getting 10-15 extra free hits every turn), rerolled wound misses...

So after 10min of him shooting at me it was finally my turn.... only killed 4 marines..

Turn 2-

Assault doctrine BS so-

Still no cover saves
Bolters are now not only still 30" range BUT now -2 to my saves(WTF?!) -yea lets now have bolters that outrange other bolters but now approach plasma gun AP with no worries of killing your own guys.

There was other stuf but basically turn 2 he wiped both my decimators,ALL my squads, both rhinos,spawns, hellbrute,havocs(had 1 survive from turn 1 pounding) ,knocked both forge fiends down to 2 wounds each, warpsmith 1 w left...

I gave up,nothing I could do against that.. My 2 Decimators each armed with 2 Soul Burner Petards-tossing 8d3 shots were the champs of my army but still could not deal with his wound count and firepower... If it was not for the rule where a hit auto mortal wounds I would not have even taken out 4 of the 6 aggressors BUT stil hat to waste all shots from both to just chisel that 6 man unit down..

I told him not a fun game and NONE of my armies-DE,SOB,CHaos have really anything to counter the new rules and stuff-have fun in a tournament.........

Being out ranged,outshot,out powered,out saved,you name it- strategems,doctrines,blah,blah..... makes me wonder again why I still keep playing.

I dont care if I lose if it is at least a good entertaining game.... but basically i felt I should have left army in transport case ,put on table, he does turn 1/2 , I pull case off table put in car and leave...

GW continues their legacy of screwing up all the other armies so there is no balance AND chaos JUST supposedly had an 'update'.... specially DE,SOB in my opinion and chaos constantly gets bitch slapped with nothing to really counter unit and rules fluff wise.

I wont even say what his final list will be but it includes like 10-20 snipers (?!).

Oh yea, 'smash captains' with the ability to basically attack 45x if CP is burned right and the cheese 'only in death does duty end 'crap-- yea -take out a titan with 1 little captain mini and a hammer--REALLY!!!??

Rant off
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Archon Rievect
Kabalite Warrior
Archon Rievect

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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 28 2019, 21:07

OH 1 more imortant thing- guess there is a new rule for snipers that includes them being able to not ONLY pick out characters BUT DO NOT EVEN NEED LINE OF SIGHT TO DO IT...THEY CAN SHOOT THROUGH,UP OVER AND AROUND COVER AND UNITS TO HIT THE TARGET.

WHO came up with that rule which WILL BE used and abused by every SM player on the effin planet, GW guy who came up with that needs to be flogged.....
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Gizamaluke
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Gizamaluke

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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 29 2019, 09:19

As far as I know none of the chapters allow ignores cover on everything so not sure how he was doing that. Curious how he was getting Reroll wounds? I didnt think marines had full reroll wounds anymore. If hes talking about the eliminator snipers who are the only guys who can see and shoot through anything then he can only take 9 of them total. I'm guessing he was running them as crimson fists or something for bolter drill on the aggressors for the extra shots. I could be wrong but it sounds like a lot of mistakes were made?
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Sarcron
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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 29 2019, 10:52

Yeah, and I'm not sure you can get -1 ap on bolters and a bonus of that to lascannons turn 1 with combat doctrine, so unless he had some other army-wide bonus, that shouldn't have happened either.

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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 29 2019, 11:01

The new 30" rapidfire bolt rifles have -1ap innate, and would get an additional -1 turn 2 for tactical doctrine but yeah I dont understand where the ignores cover is coming from
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Burnage
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 29 2019, 12:11

Imperial Fists have ignore cover as an innate rule.
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 29 2019, 14:29

The snipers with ignore line of sight don't have as much damage potential. I suspect most folks will try to line up shots within line of sight. However, a warlord trait allows you to redeploy three units. So they can use that to move snipers into prime position.

There is a max of 9 snipers in 2000 points with rule of three. Still really good. They should be averaging 2-3 damage on a character per squad.
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AzraeI
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AzraeI

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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 02 2019, 21:51

pretty sure the dude cheated without knowing
assault doctrine for example can be activated in turn 3 and not already in turn 2, the ignore cover thing is a chapter tactic, as well as the pseudo tesla
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: New space marine stuff   New space marine stuff I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 03 2019, 05:24

Oh, common, Nothing 6 dakka robots cant fix.

Oh sorry.

I meant loads of Ravagers and other stuff with disintegrators.

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