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 Incubi - where are they now?

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Soulless Samurai
Wych
Soulless Samurai

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi - where are they now?   Incubi - where are they now? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 13 2019, 13:42

@Burnage wrote:

Our slowest unit moves 7 inches.

You realise how pathetic that is, right?

@Burnage wrote:
Our cheapest transport can move 19 inches without advancing.

Show me a Black Heart, Poison Tongue or Obsidian Rose transport that can move 19" without Advancing and we'll talk.


@Burnage wrote:
Our fastest non-Flyer unit can move 28 inches and then charge without using any Stratagems.

Okay. So we have 1 Fast Attack unit that lives up to its name.

What about our other fast attack units? Can Scourges, Hellions, Khymerae, Razorwing Flocks or Clawed Fiends pull off anything even remotely close to that? Can any of our HQs, Elites, Troops or Heavy Supports?

No. Because we're not a mobile army. We're an army with a few mobile units that players collectively agree somehow make us vastly more mobile than any of the other armies that also have mobile units - and usually more of them and in slots other than Fast Attack.

But sure, keep buying into the lie. Maybe if you pretend hare enough, reality itself will bend so that the 7"-8" movement on our HQs magically becomes greater than the 10-16" movement on all the HQs in "less mobile" armies with access to Jump Packs, Bikes or some equivalent thereof.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi - where are they now?   Incubi - where are they now? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 13 2019, 17:47

You do realize that we are still extremely fast right? And no one from GW actually said we are the "Fastest foot slugging army" right? We are meant to be fast as a whole and we are, only 3 other armies in the game are this fast, CWE, Nids, Quins, and 2 of them as you can see are aeldari.

And why would we have the fastest walkers? We are still just basic aelves, why would a 90 lbs guy with wings be faster than a flying vehicle?

If you want fast walking guys go Harlequins or CWE they have special gear for that reason.

If you want fast vehicles, now that is DE, Who else has a Heavy tank that can move, advance and shoot over 20"? Almost no one. So we are fast. Yes SM can now have a 14" movement vehicle that will be -1 to shoot some weapons if it moves and even worst if it advances. The problem isnt its 14" movement, its the survivability for the points.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi - where are they now?   Incubi - where are they now? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 13 2019, 20:48

@amishprn86 wrote:
You do realize that we are still extremely fast right?

2 fast transports and a jetbike unit does not a fast army make.


@amishprn86 wrote:
And no one from GW actually said we are the "Fastest foot slugging army" right?

I don't want to blow your mind or anything but you do realise that other armies are allowed fast units outside of the FA slot? You know, units with Bikes, Jump Packs and the like.

Yet we the "fast" army have 0 HQs with mobility options, 0 Elites with mobility options, 0 Troops with mobility options.

Necrons have more mobility options than that.


@amishprn86 wrote:
We are meant to be fast as a whole

By "as a whole", I take it you mean "yeah, so ~75% of our army is pathetically slow but we have transports so everything is fine. Because there's no possible reason why you'd want to take units that don't need to rely on transports to be fast."


@amishprn86 wrote:
only 3 other armies in the game are this fast, CWE, Nids, Quins, and 2 of them as you can see are aeldari.

I agree that Nids, Eldar and Harlequins are fast. That doesn't make Dark Eldar fast.

Hell, look at the options they get.
- Nids have all manner of winged creatures and movement abilities.
- Eldar have HQs with wings and Jetbikes, Elites that can charge 15", and all their vehicles have M16" (whilst also having better armour than ours). Not only that but they have Battle Focus, allowing them to move and still shoot (non-Heavy weapons) normally.
- Harlequins, in addition to exceptionally fast vehicles and Jetbikes can Advance or Fall Back and still assault, giving them extra range and options. Not to mention additional movement from, for example, psychic powers. Oh, and their transports actually have enough space for their HQs. What a concept.

Dark Eldar have M7-8 and some fast transports. No Battle Focus, Rising Crescendo or any equivalent. No mobility options for any unit outside the FA slot.

When you consider the movement options available to SMs, Necrons etc., Dark Eldar aren't even in the top 5 when it comes to mobile armies.


@amishprn86 wrote:

And why would we have the fastest walkers? We are still just basic aelves, why would a 90 lbs guy with wings be faster than a flying vehicle?

Scourges are M14" so I don't even know what you're talking about here. Neutral


@amishprn86 wrote:

If you want fast walking guys go Harlequins or CWE they have special gear for that reason.

"How dare you say Dark Eldar aren't a fast army!!!!!"

*A few moments later*

"If you want an actually fast army, you'd be better off playing something other than Dark Eldar."

There really is no facepalm big enough.


@amishprn86 wrote:

If you want fast vehicles, now that is DE,

Or, you know, Eldar. The race with the heavy tanks that are all faster than ours.


@amishprn86 wrote:
Who else has a Heavy tank that can move, advance and shoot over 20"?

That's true at least.

But I don't deny that DE vehicles are fast (though I'll admit them being only as fast or slower than better-armoured vehicles is a bugbear of mine).

My issue is with those vehicles being DE's *only* claim to being a fast army.


@amishprn86 wrote:
So we are fast.

By the criteria you just invented, sure.


@amishprn86 wrote:
Yes SM can now have a 14" movement vehicle that will be -1 to shoot some weapons if it moves and even worst if it advances. The problem isnt its 14" movement, its the survivability for the points.

It's not just the vehicle, though. It's the fact that SMs are actually allowed other fast units. They're allowed fast HQs, they're allowed fast Elites. Whereas we the """fast""" army have no such option.

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Azdrubael
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi - where are they now?   Incubi - where are they now? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 14 2019, 09:07

I may be not very spoilt, but after year of playing Ad Mech, Dark Eldar do indeed seems like fast army.

Outside of other Aeaealdari stuff no one can convinsingly pull off transport assault maneuvre, block other units etc with transports, shoot and fallback,

Everything in Elites and HQ in Dark Eldar list have mobility options..

I cant transport my Kataphrons Servitors even if i had transport (which is flimsier raider with no invul and higher toughness which doesnt matter)

Some things you take for granted, like claiming that Maelstrom Secure Objective point, by simply moving venom or raider, require tremendous planning in low mobility armies. I have to plan movement of my Servitors from depoyment troughout entire game to maybe score this and that objective if it maybe will appear in cards.

I rarely play with SM with this mobility, often they are moving ball of shooting.

Mobility also appear in ability to shoot after advancing at all, or shoot after falling back, or not having minuses to hit after moving.

I think title of fastest of all armies is pretty pointless now, because that margin of fastest is pretty close, but is for sure the most mobile army with lots of abilities here and there to encourage mobility.

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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi - where are they now?   Incubi - where are they now? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 15 2019, 04:04

I more or less agree with Souless Samurai. The speed seems to come down to having a few deep strike units and stratagems for deep strike.

PFP's Eager to Flay on paper seems fine. But...
-There's no firing Rapid Fire weapons after advancing, like Black Legion, so Kabalites are going to sacrifice their SRs to advance.
-Rerolling charges is only situationally beneficial on Kabal units. Mostly Archons and Courts.
-Only Red Grief gets to take full advantage by being able to charge afterward.

The other thing is that speed just doesn't seem like it is of that much value anymore. There's no more armor facings to exploit, no more fall back routes to cut off, no more invulnerable saves for moving fast. I sometimes wonder if DE are stuck in strange spot between horde and elite. Raiders and Venoms are so expensive that I don't even care about their ability to keep their contents alive, when I could just buy more Kabalites or Wychs.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi - where are they now?   Incubi - where are they now? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 15 2019, 04:38

Well until you see that 14 venoms, 9 kabals + blasters, and 3 ravagers has won tournaments...

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TSkouboe
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi - where are they now?   Incubi - where are they now? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 19 2019, 09:48

I think two fast, open-topped transports make us very fast.
Also, I feel quite fast when my tough heavy support Talos move 15"+d6" with advance and Fire and Fade.

Space Marines may have vehicles and transports that can move almost as fast, but they suffer precision from it, and the units in their transports do nothing on the turns inside. We can move fast AND act.
Lately I've played Space Marines, Space Wolves, Necrons, Chaos Daemons, Astra Militarum, and Orks, and only against the Orks (and a pesky Smash Captain or flying Blood Angels Dreadnought) do I not decide where the battle will happen.

That said, I wish we had some mobility upgrades to our HQs. They could really use it.
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SERAFF
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi - where are they now?   Incubi - where are they now? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 22 2019, 11:49

Returning to the topic.
I've tried some Incubi in Kill Team and they really shine in this game. With 3+ save they are very survivable and can hit back pretty hard.

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Serpent Fly
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi - where are they now?   Incubi - where are they now? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 22 2019, 12:34

Space Marines are always going to be the favourite child of GW and get all of the toys they want. That's something as a xenos player you have to accept, and then feel good about it when you still beat them.

As for Incubi, I have used them often in lower point games where I dont have a wych cult detachment. They have been okay. If they hit first they can put out a very nice number of attacks, and better than our craftworld cousins aspects can. However T3 means they are still not very durable, that 3+ sv only goes so far when you have to roll so many saves. I have recently played alot of Genestealer cults and if I have the option I would take 2 wyches over 1 incubi every time. The negative armour modifires GSC have mean my 16pt incubi arent much more durable than my kabalites.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi - where are they now?   Incubi - where are they now? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 22 2019, 13:45

@Serpent Fly wrote:
Space Marines are always going to be the favourite child of GW and get all of the toys they want. That's something as a xenos player you have to accept, and then feel good about it when you still beat them.

No.

What needs to change is this inferiority complex Xenos players have picked up.

People seem to forget that not so long ago the SM range was no larger than that of most Xeno armies. They were the poster-boys, sure, but rulewise they were just another army. It was only in recent years that GW began doting on them to the exclusion of all else.

Indeed, the game itself markets the other armies as being on par with them. It's not 'Space Marines and Assorted Enemies of Space Marines'. There is no discount for playing Dark Eldar or Orks or Harlequins. There isn't even a discount on their codices, in spite of them having far less content.

If any other company tried this nonsense, their customers would tell them to get bent. But with GW the Xenos players just roll over and not only accept whatever GW does but actively defend them for it.

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Serpent Fly
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi - where are they now?   Incubi - where are they now? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2019, 13:41

Haha not an inferiority complex talking my fellow Archon but an observation made over many years of the hobby. Marines will always get stuff first, this has been happening for years. Take flyers as an example a few editions ago. And yes they will have more options. That sucks, but I'm not going to complain that that is the reason if I lose a game. All I was saying is despite this favouritism we can still beat them, and beat them well thanks to our current codex.

Back to the topic at hand. Ynari Incubi can be good, although I do think the CP investment to get them rerolls is a little steep.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi - where are they now?   Incubi - where are they now? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 28 2019, 17:05

I run plain old DE incubi all the time. Are they great? No. Are they overpriced? Yes. But our codex is in such a solid spot these days, I can afford to spend the 80pts on 5 incubi and have them roll up with my archon. They rarely survive the game, and sometimes they die horribly without doing much, but I enjoy using them and thematically I like having my archon rolling up with his incubi.

If we're speaking purely competitively, sure don't take them. They need a boost like s5/damage 2 to really shine, but if it's just a casual game they are decent enough to take them without feeling like they are a complete waste. I've found they fit in especially well when I have larger, more potent melee threats like lots of wyches and/or talos.

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