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Ollie
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PostSubject: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 17 2019, 22:30

Hi all,

Been looking over different load outs for my succubus and was wondering what the mathematical best was?

In particular in split between running:
Red Grief - Blood Glaive - Stim Addict - +1 A & S Drug
Output = A6 - S8 - AP-3, at D3 Damage (Using Hyperstimm Backlash)

and

Cult of Strife - Triptych Whip - Blood Dancer - +1 WS Drug
Output = A8 - Poision 4+ - Ap-2, at D1 (Hitting roughly 18? times from turn 3 onward with Hyperstimm Backlash, Can also attack again)

What are your thoughts between these two? or is there a better combo that i am missing and should be doing? In particular considering using Lilith.

Cheers
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 17 2019, 23:02

I've been running Strife and the Triptych Whip is by far my MVP for characters. It really helps against high toughness non-vehicles. Against Tau and coldstar? suits it was amazing.

For a second Succubus I've been tempted to just run one with a shardnet and impaler. It's super cheap and does reasonable work against things. And an extra net is always helpful.
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Ollie
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 17 2019, 23:36

@Myrvn wrote:
For a second Succubus I've been tempted to just run one with a shardnet and impaler. It's super cheap and does reasonable work against things. And an extra net is always helpful.

Actually i was considering that as well, putting Treacherous Deceiver turns her into a mini nuke that hunts characters pretty well.
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 18 2019, 00:18

@Ollie wrote:
Cult of Strife - Triptych Whip - Blood Dancer - +1 WS Drug

Something to keep in mind (that I got wrong the first few times I played my Succubus with this exact build) is that +1 WS doesn't give you exploding 5s and 6s, as the extra WS is not modifying your actual dice roll from a 5 to a 6, it is just making you hit on a 1+, which fails on a 1 anyway (though you do get to re roll).

Personally with this build of Succubus I like to go for +2 to Movement, that helps her get around the table so she can deliver her 8 whip attacks wherever they need to go.

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 18 2019, 00:20

Good point. I've been using +2" movement as well.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 18 2019, 00:21

My personal preference for Succubus loadout is Red Grief, Blood Glaive, Hyper-Swift Reflexes, +1 A drug. The 3++ is way more useful than making her S7 and in general she winds up doing way more work than a 50 point model should normally be capable of.
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TSkouboe
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 18 2019, 06:57

@Ollie wrote:
wondering what the mathematical best was

That depends what you are fighting.
I had the same curiosity a little while ago.
My load outs were:

  • Triptych Whip: Cult of Strife, Adrenalight, Blood Dancer. (15 hits from turn 3+)
  • Blood Glaive: Cult of Red Grief, Adrenalight, Precision Blows.

I found that:

  • Triptych Whip is significantly better against light infantry like Fire Warriors and Ork Boyz. It's also a little better against Marines.
  • Blood Glaive is significantly better against multi-wound models with good saves like Terminators and Crisis Suits.
  • They're about equal against Daemon Princes.


That said, I doubt I'll get a chance to run a Succubus like that. If I bring Wyches, I want them to have Adrenalight because it'll add more attacks. I've also found that the damage output (in my meta) for Wyches is better with Cult of the Cursed Blade because the added strength is very important when fighting Fire Warriors, Marines, and Boyz, so my Succubus will probably never be Cult of Strife either.
So, in reality, my Succubus will likely be much less killy.
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Dr.Morbid
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 19 2019, 13:59

I usually play cursed blade and I like the hydra-gauntlets with precision Blows. Not maxed out but reliable.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 19 2019, 23:09

Personally I'd favour the Blood Glaive.

I've found Agonisers to be utterly abysmal in 8th.

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 19 2019, 23:22

The Triptych Whips punches above weight, but I wouldn't bring a regular Agonizer on a succubus.

I do run agonizers on my Wyches, but mostly because I don't want to pull arms off.
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 19 2019, 23:46

Blood Glaive looks pretty solid, but my main issue with it is that it is only usable by Red Grief. So, you have to go Red Grief on your Wyches, which means no extra +1 S or +1 A Sad

If you could put it on a Cursed Blade or Strife Succubus, now that would be beautiful.

The other thing to consider is that while Blood Glaive is strictly better than a standard Archite Glaive, it's not exactly game changing. With only 4 swings and Strength 6, it's essentially just a Power Fist on a Guardsman that costs you a Relic slot. Make of that what you will.

For me it's Triptych Whip or bust.

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 20 2019, 00:00

I guess part of it for me is what other units are coming. My list usually has three squads of Wyches (I like em), but not enough cult units to use all of the drugs. And my archon is usually Flayed Skull, so I usually have a relic slot available.

I've found both of those influence what choices I make for succubus load out and relic selection.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 20 2019, 06:17

It's a slightly different conversation, but I think it's worth mentioning that a Ynnari Succubus doesn't suffer from the same weaknesses as a regular Succubus.

I've been using a Ynnarchon as my warlord and using 1 CP to generate and extra warlord trait for the succubus. Warden of Souls gives her +1 attack and +1 str if Strength from Death is active (read: pretty much always).

With 5 attacks and str 6, she's a whole other story. With Ynnari, you're also likely to be getting +1 to hit with her on all turns she charges. So the -1 to hit downside of the Archite Glaive just doesn't really matter. You're less incentivized to put the +1WS drug on her, so depending on the rest of your list, you're free to give her better drugs, like +1A.

Also

Ynnari have multiple sources of re-roll wounds against targets in CC so she becomes very efficient.

Also

She's much better defensively. Striking first pretty much all the time is great. The Lost Shroud relic halves damage and gives her 5+ FNP. I honestly haven't bothered with it because she's just a 50 point cruise missile to me, but she'd be a tough nut to crack with that and her 4++. And, even if she dies, you can bring her back with a stratagem!

Not saying Yannari are good enough to go all in on (I have been and I love it). But a minimal battalion detachment of blobs of wyches and 5 strong squads in venoms, Yvraine, and succubus is worth considering.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 20 2019, 11:05

@hydranixx wrote:

The other thing to consider is that while Blood Glaive is strictly better than a standard Archite Glaive, it's not exactly game changing. With only 4 swings and Strength 6, it's essentially just a Power Fist on a Guardsman that costs you a Relic slot. Make of that what you will.

I agree but that's due more to the the state of our weapons.

Yes, the fact that we have to use a Relic to take a regular Power Fist is awful, but what's worse is how bad our standard weapons are. The reason a Power Fist is such an improvement is because the base Glaive is so irredeemably awful.

Can you name any other melee weapon in the game that has a -1 penalty to hit, yet neither doubles the user's strength nor has multiple damage?

@hydranixx wrote:

For me it's Triptych Whip or bust.

The thing is, whilst the Whip gets more attacks you're still losing half of them on the wound roll even against guardsmen. And with only AP-2 and 1 damage apiece, even the attacks that actually manage to wound are hardly threatening.


@sekac wrote:
It's a slightly different conversation, but I think it's worth mentioning that a Ynnari Succubus doesn't suffer from the same weaknesses as a regular Succubus.

I've been using a Ynnarchon as my warlord and using 1 CP to generate and extra warlord trait for the succubus. Warden of Souls gives her +1 attack and +1 str if Strength from Death is active (read: pretty much always).

With 5 attacks and str 6, she's a whole other story. With Ynnari, you're also likely to be getting +1 to hit with her on all turns she charges. So the -1 to hit downside of the Archite Glaive just doesn't really matter.

That's an interesting point, actually. I'd basically dismissed the Ynnari Succubus due to her inability to take the good melee relic (and being Ynnari also cuts her off from the DE relics), but you're right - Warden of Souls is actually pretty decent for her.

I'll admit that I'm still not sold on her only doing 1 damage but she's still better than I thought.

@sekac wrote:
You're less incentivized to put the +1WS drug on her

I've never once been incentivized to put the +1WS drug on a Succubus. Wink

@sekac wrote:

Ynnari have multiple sources of re-roll wounds against targets in CC so she becomes very efficient.

I'm not sure spending 2CP each combat to make her worthwhile really counts as 'efficient'. Razz

@sekac wrote:

She's much better defensively. Striking first pretty much all the time is great. The Lost Shroud relic halves damage and gives her 5+ FNP. I honestly haven't bothered with it because she's just a 50 point cruise missile to me, but she'd be a tough nut to crack with that and her 4++. And, even if she dies, you can bring her back with a stratagem!

Not saying Yannari are good enough to go all in on (I have been and I love it). But a minimal battalion detachment of blobs of wyches and 5 strong squads in venoms, Yvraine, and succubus is worth considering.

It's a fair point, honestly. However, I think if I was going to use Ynnari-DE at all I'd probably want to just go all-in and take a Brigade of Cult and Kabal.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 20 2019, 16:18

Kind of feel like a Hungering Blade Archon would do the exact same job as a Ynnari Succubus except considerably more effectively.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 20 2019, 21:58

@Soulless Samurai wrote:

I'll admit that I'm still not sold on her only doing 1 damage but she's still better than I thought.

@sekac wrote:
You're less incentivized to put the +1WS drug on her

I've never once been incentivized to put the +1WS drug on a Succubus. Wink

I do it sometimes if I have 6-7 combat drug units. Somebody has to take it, and things like +1A, S, T are more important on larger squads. Somebody has to take the useless ones.

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@sekac wrote:

Ynnari have multiple sources of re-roll wounds against targets in CC so she becomes very efficient.

I'm not sure spending 2CP each combat to make her worthwhile really counts as 'efficient'. Razz
Or 1 CP if slaanesh, or psychic power. If using the psychic power or 2 CP stratagem, you're marking the enemy unit so everyone engaged gets to re-roll. With only damage 1, her best use is as a pile on unit to single wound MEq. Tie them down with shardnets, and chope them up with agonisers and the glaive.

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@sekac wrote:

She's much better defensively........

...stuff...

Not saying Yannari are good enough to go all in on (I have been and I love it). But a minimal battalion detachment of blobs of wyches and 5 strong squads in venoms, Yvraine, and succubus is worth considering.

It's a fair point, honestly. However, I think if I was going to use Ynnari-DE at all I'd probably want to just go all-in and take a Brigade of Cult and Kabal.

That's exactly what I've been running and I really like it. Archon warlord, Yncarne because it's fun, and a succubus. The only tricky bit is elites. You've got Incubi and Beastmasters. That's...not ideal. But it feels like a 5th edition list again! So nostalgic (except the teleporting avatar of a death god, that's new).

@Burnage wrote:

Kind of feel like a Hungering Blade Archon would do the exact same job as a Ynnari Succubus except considerably more effectively.

You're kinda right, but it depends entirely on what you're fighting. Against single wound models, no he's not more effective. Same strength, same number of attacks, same AP. D2 doesn't matter (maybe slightly if they have FNP), so it's really just the possible extra mortal wound. That's not worth a 50% increase in cost.

And also:
1) They're not mutually exclusive.
2) He's probably your warlord, so recklessly tossing into combat isn't always wise.
3) Babysitting ravagers and regenerating CPs is still his best use for most of the game.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 20 2019, 22:14

@sekac wrote:
@Burnage wrote:

Kind of feel like a Hungering Blade Archon would do the exact same job as a Ynnari Succubus except considerably more effectively.

You're kinda right, but it depends entirely on what you're fighting. Against single wound models, no he's not more effective. Same strength, same number of attacks, same AP. D2 doesn't matter (maybe slightly if they have FNP), so it's really just the possible extra mortal wound. That's not worth a 50% increase in cost.

And also:
1) They're not mutually exclusive.
2) He's probably your warlord, so recklessly tossing into combat isn't always wise.
3) Babysitting ravagers and regenerating CPs is still his best use for most of the game.

Assuming that they're both taking Warden of Souls, the Archon should have +1 S or +1 A (or even both) depending on drugs choice, no? The 50% extra cost is probably the biggest drawback - all your other points can be remedied by just having two Archons, one backline and one frontline.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 20 2019, 22:51

@Burnage wrote:
Kind of feel like a Hungering Blade Archon would do the exact same job as a Ynnari Succubus except considerably more effectively.

I agree but you can only take the Hungering Blade once.

So if you're using a Brigade or multiple Ynnari-Drukhari detachments you might want a Succubus just to save a few points.

That said, the issue for me is that if I was using Ynnari I'd want Lord of Rebirth on my Archon (to give him a shred of survivability when his Shadowfield inevitably kicks the bucket), and so if I was taking a second warlord trait I'd prefer the CP-regen one to the +1S/+1A one.

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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 21 2019, 17:03

I know a lot of this talk has been about damage output for a succubus but I recently ran a Ynnari succubus with the mirror gaze relic for a flat -1 to be hit and a shardnet with some success. I had her up a flank and my opponent tried to use her to slingshot a sydonian dragoon and 2 punchy castellan robots and only inflicted 2 wounds.

I haven't been able to get her to tie up infantry yet but I feel she's an excellent trap for a 55 point hq that's just filling out my battalion.

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Lord Weston
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 22 2019, 12:30

I have been using the fisticuffsubus build that some one posted here some time strife twin hydra gauntlets the additional attack drug and precision strike, I generally prefer her to the whip and blood dancer although reading this I have been playing her slightly wrong and forgetting to explode attacks on 5s and 6s after turn 3. The big difference for me is the reliably wounding stuff thanks to the gauntlets rrs but personally I suck at making 4+ rolls with anything close to mathematical probability! The Ynnari builds look really interesting though I hadn't considered either I got too distracted by the hungering blade archon. The distraction net build is really good in general I have run a red grief lass with hypex a net and the 3++ trait for maximum irritation before now and it's a real threat to shooting stuff
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 23 2019, 10:41

Actually, I've got a related question about Succubi - what do you take them in?

Do you have them in a Venom on their own?

Do you have them in a Venom with a bunch of other characters?

Do you have them in a Raider with 5-9 Wyches?

Do you just run them on foot and hope for the best?


I ask because when building my (admittedly more Kabal leaning) lists, I'll often give one Archon the Djin Blade . . . only to realise that I've got no points left to buy a transport for him. Razz

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 23 2019, 11:52

I run them on foot. Putting our HQs in transports feels like a trap to me.
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Lord Weston
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 23 2019, 13:13

I will normally have them in a transport but I will admit I don't play that competitively
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 23 2019, 16:54

I've tinkered with two options.

A venom with a Lhamaean as ablative wounds for wrecking, or a raider with a 5-man squad. Both seem decent.
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PostSubject: Re: Advice with Succubus load outs   Advice with Succubus load outs I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 24 2019, 09:28

my mvp is a Succubus w/ Shardnet & Impaler
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