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Baron Pompadur
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PostSubject: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 21 2019, 22:15

Hey Archons! Glad to say hello again!

Today i want to ask for some tips to play foot wyches. I played a tournament the last weekend and made a solid 3-1 with 2 big units of wyches. You can get the list in the subforum.

The issue is, i dont know how to play wyches. I tried to deep strike them and then, assault. But was a fail. In the first game was good and did the assault. In the second game, 1 unit fail and the other was ok. The third game was a big fail. And the last game was a fail too, but the wyches still did something.

My question is, how i can use wyches in foot? I mean, units of 20 wyches. Deep strike them and then assault? Running them across the table? Deepstrike in a safe position? Im a little bit lost. So any help will be very greatful.

Thanks in advance guys!


PS: Sorry my english, is not my natural language No
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 22 2019, 00:08

Okay, a few things:

1) I'm not a fan of deep striking assault units. I know some people do this but for me the odds are too poor (even with a potential reroll) to justify it.

2) Is there a reason why you're determined to run Wyches on foot? Dark Eldar is basically Transports: The Army, and putting your Wyches in Raiders and Venoms will both boost their mobility whilst also offering them a decent level of protection.

3) I have to be honest, using squads of 20 Wyches on foot seems like you're deliberately choosing to ignore every possible advantage out army can offer. Razz

Put simply, there's really no advantage to having more than 10 Wyches in a squad. All you're doing is making them even more vulnerable to morale.

Personally, I'd strongly recommend splitting them into 2 units of 10. I'd take one Shardnet and Impailer in each squad, though other weapons are basically down to personal taste.

If you're set on running them on foot, Red Grief is probably your best bet as it lets you Advance and Charge in the same turn.

Personally, I'd just run them up the board and try to get them stuck in ASAP. They're unlikely to be the backbone of your list, so their best bet is to sneak up while your opponent is busy shooting your Ravagers and other, more important targets.

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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 22 2019, 15:53

There are 2 ways, turn 2 DS with 2x20 mans to have a higher change to get 1 into melee (9 on 2D6 with re-rolls and the option of a CP re-roll), or number 2, hide them turn 1 and use them has Orks turn 2+ (run them up and charge), either way both ways still has some strategy with them.

They each have there places and in a 3-5 round event you will do both ways.

Double DSing: This is your Go big or Go home strategy. When it works its insane, but when it fails you give up 300pts. This is best vs armies like IG, Tau, etc.. with lots of shooting and ignore cover/LoS Shooting, i would do this vs IG/Tau over walking no matter what.
In order for this to work, you need to be prepare to fail all charges, but at the same time you need to have back up and supporting units around them. Reavers, Shining Spears, Yncarne,  4-5 Venoms, etc.. you need something in the way that has threat. And then even with that at the the same time again DSing into Cover/on objectives can force them to handle those, so you can make the failure workout for you pulling damage away from other units.

Running up the table: This is the normal easy way to play, a bit more safe vs Knights, Orks, Chaos, CSM, etc.. but worst vs Tau and IG.
You really want to hug terrain and make sure to stay out of LoS and gaining cover turn 1, with Cursed  blade (you should be playing that) you dont care with 6-7 die, you want to make sure you have more than 10 left over, moral will help with that, a 5+/6++/6+++ also helps vs light shooting, but you shouldnt be getting shot at anyways. You will need to move your turn 1 or turn 2 into a good position, either to counter charge, or make an important charge,

To add some special tricks for Wyches.
Its a good idea to declare a multi charge so you can fight twice, even if you cant kill the target fighting twice gives you 2 Piles ins and Consolidates, making it possible to wrap units so they can not fallback no matter what (No escape doesnt work on everything).
Also remember you can fallback and charge later, so wrapping a unit you cant kill isnt a bad thing. Keeping a Wych unit alive on their side for 1 turn to be able to multicharge and kill massive units/characters next turn or more important units AND sitting on objectives can win games.
Wyches are all about good timing, movements, and targeting at the same time. WHile this is true for many units, a lot of units only needs to move and shoot a set way (look at Ravagers, very easy to play them), but wyches you might want to hold them back 1 extra turn to get insane abilities out of them. A couple well placement movements and stratagems changes how they play.

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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 23 2019, 00:35

Ok I'll try because my english really sucks, so be patient Smile
.As a player who plays Wyches a lot (I love them), yes, I played a lot of CursedBlade 15-20 blob of girls. So I can bring to you my experience and some of the points I'll like to argue.

1) First of all, NEVER deep strike them! Never, seriously, there's no match up where you will get some value in it, expecially if you're considering a competitive event. A good player will screen you (and now is even worse because of Phobos guys) and Wyches are not tough. Rerolling a charge or 9" is far from being sure, and if you fail the charge, you're death. You're not an Eversor (who charge on 3D6) or an Ork (Ere we go+EvilSunz) etc, and you're not a Terminator wolfguard who can stand and still. Wyches are not maded for DeepStriking, forget it;

2) You need to list them properly. If you will be a Tyr, Wyches are your Hormagants, not your Genestealers. These girls are expendable, you have to play something with more value around them. You should think "if my opponent is killing them, or is playing around them, it is nice". You can pair them with a lot of choices: with some footslogging Grotesques, with some Flayed Skulls Venoms around, stick them into a shooting list, everything is fine. But don't put your eggs on them, these girls are expendable.
Consider that 15 of them with a single Shardnet are just 125 points. You don't need to maximise them if you wont, 15-20 are good enough.
They are good in screening a large portion of your deploy against DS units; they are great as countercharges against orks, tyr, and anything who want to get close. Against shooty units, you can use anything faster than the girl for soaking overwatch. Usually, Raiders/Venoms are great for that role but if you thing that a charge will help you winning the game, just throw in everything: I charged a Tau even with Ravagers once, only because I had to soak some overwatch for the incoming Wyches. Once in combat with all, it was a win.

3) Choose carefully your targets. Wyches are amazing hitters against mass infantry, expecially cadians, Orks, Tyr, cultists etc. They are a counter blobs. 15 Wyches are 45 attacks at S4, with pfp and drugs. Sometimes it will be at S5, sometimes 60 attacks, sometimes you will hit at 2+. For 125 points this is an amazing output of damage. But remember: hormagants, not genestealers. These are expendables. Use them fighting blobs, Troops, take of infantry, clean up objectives, and most of it: TIED UP YOUR OPPONENT.
Don't waste them into the wrong target, you have other guns to throw to them. Use Wyches for Wyches work: disrupt enemy lines, tied up yourself with screens, wipe out all the enemy infantry, they are janitors.
If you can keep objectives and your opponent cannot, you win.

4) Now the hot topic: know HOW TO CHARGE. This is essential for any melee unit in the game, but a lot of players still don't know how to charge correctly in 8th edition.
So if you already know it, sorry if I'll repeat the lesson. Otherwise, listen: wyches are extremely fragile. They NEED to stay in combat trought all the enemy turn, and being free in your. And as a mob, it is your objective to tie up most of the enemy units during the process.
So in 8 edition, a charge works when 1 of your model roll enough to get himself into 1" to the target. NOT in contact: at 1". This is important. So end your movement at 1". Now, before fighting, you can pile: by the rules, you don't have to pile in DIRECTLY into the nearest enemy; you have to END your pile-in nearest than before. It means that if you start your Pile-in at (just saying) 0,9", you can move by 3", all around the nearest enemy model, ending at 0,8" to it. This is legal and legit. Doing this, it allows you to "move" into the fight, and sometimes it means get some inches wherever you want, DURING the fight. But we will see in deep soon. You can do this with all your wyches in the same unit. Charge in 1", pil-in getting around your opponent, position yourself where do you prefer.
Then you will fight, you will kill some models, so after that you will consolidate with all the wyches that aren't in contact with an enemy: repeat the trick upside. This movement will allow you to move into 1" of other different enemy units! And here you are: you've tied up enemies that were too far to get with the first charge.
If you get used with this trick you will figure out a lot of combinations to use for tied-up your oppo. You can charge 10 Cadians, surrounding them piling-in, kill them, then consolidate into the other 10 Cadians back/near.
You can even "bring an hostage": Charge moving ONLY 1 Wych into 1" t your target, and all the other wyches all around the target, but NOT into 1". You just have to complete the charge with 1 model, keep all the other wyches at 1.1" to the enemy. Then DON'T pile in. Fight with only 1 Wych, do few damage, don let your target break. And only after these few attacks, now CONSOLIDATE with all the Wyches. And doing this try to close 1 single enemy model between 3 Wyches, blocking in fact his base (this works well when, for example, your target is at 6" and you roll higer. So you can move around your target, surrounding him, but keeping yourself at 1.1" except with the first wych). Now, you have trapped your opponent: in his turn he physically can't fall back (because one of his models is trapped, his base can't overlap yours), so he's forced to stay in combat and your wyches are safe from all the shooting incoming Wink now, in his combat phase you will be able to kill your target (Curse Blade still works after charge, yes I'm looking at you Cult of Strife!). Now it's your turn, you are free again, move your wyches, charge again, repeat the trick...
This is caller "Taking an Hostage". You sacrifice your output of damage in melee during the charge, you surround a model, you stuck it in melee with you. Now, if you are able to combine pile-in/consolidating in both tied up more units AND surrounding a single hostage, your a good wych player. Consider the scenario: Leman Russ screend by cadians. You declare cadians as a target; you charge them, 1 Wych at 1", other wyches around cadians and some of them at kore than 1 (but near!) to the Russ; hit with 1 wych; Consolidate, surround 1 Cadian with some wyches, and consolidate with the nearest wych into the Leman Russ too.
He can't fire overwatch during a Consolidation;
You have blocked the cadians in melee with you;
He needs to fall back with the Leman Russ, and it will not fight for the turn...you've silenced it;
He can't fall back with the Cadians...so he can't shoot at your wyches at all;
It is a mess for the IG player...you will kill the Cadians in his turn, you will free in yours, able to repeat the trick.

Now......why Wyches are even better in that? Shardnet and Impalers. Oh yes, I teached how to "take an hostage" surrounding your oppo. But the reality is that wyches have the Net for taking obstages without surrounding them! So NOW you're figuring out why these girls are so strong...yes, precisely. Large mob of wyches can spread better and, when you need, they can hit harder. Jeez, 20 Wyches are 60 attacks at S5, or 80 at S4. And..

5) Size "doesn't" matter. 5 Wyches on Venom are great for tarpit. Thanks to the Shardnet, even 5 Wyches can tied-up any little unit and creating mess into the opponent's deploy. 10 Wyches in Raiders are able to bring 3 weapons and they hit pretty well too, a good amount of attacks.
So....20-15...if you get some losses, seriously, you don't care! Remember: they are just hormagants. But while 3 hormagants are kinda useless (if not for taking an objective, maybe), 3 wyches still be terrifying! And that's all for the Shardnet. That weapon is amazing, if only a single Wych with the Shardnet will stay alive after the combat, the enemy unit will be locked anyway! So the reality is that 20 wyches are good, 15 are good, 10 are good, 5 are good, heck even 1 is good! This is a unit that you, as the opponent, need to wipe out ENTIRELY, or it will mess with you anyway. Cursed Blade never test for morale (kinda..) that means that, yes, Wyches are fragile....but less that you can tought. Because 10 Intercessors are 20 hits, even with all the rerolls you can get if you missed 2 (you will loss one for morale check) that f---ing Net will be there. So if you bring 45-60 Wyches these are all models that the opponent needs to wipe out ENTIRELY. Which is extremely annoying when you DE player are offering so many other targets on the board. Maybe some 19" movement speed FS Venoms are charging some shooting units, locking them in turn 1 while wyches are coming. Maybe you're destroing his shooting units with Ravagers and Razorwings, and your oppo really won't waste his shooing over some "useless" wyches.

6) Remember alle these 5 points and close the circle with stratagems. Lightning Fast Reactions if you're afraid for a wipe in melee. Artisan of pain if you want +1 to hit at turn 2. Misdirection if you fail to kill the enemy unit in the opponent's turn, so fall back and be free anyway in your turn. We have some stratagems that helps during the tricks explained up here. Don't forget them.



Wyches blobs are not only heavy lifters for other mobs, but even extremely good at messing into the oppo's deployment. Consider them as mosquitos when you're sleeping: annoying. You can kill them when they are far; if they get close and personal, damn, this girls are sticky. A good wyches player who really knows how to pile-in/consolidate is a nightmare to play against. My opponents know it :p

good luck!
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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 23 2019, 11:33

@Cerve wrote:
Ok I'll try because my english really sucks, so be patient Smile
.As a player who plays Wyches a lot (I love them), yes, I played a lot of CursedBlade 15-20 blob of girls. So I can bring to you my experience and some of the points I'll like to argue.

1) First of all, NEVER deep strike them! Never, seriously, there's no match up where you will get some value in it,

There are for sure times when DSing them is best, if you are for sure going to lose them turn 1 or 2 and no way for them to go across the table and into combat by turn 1 or 2 then just DS them, you have an infinite better chance to use them for them to be useful than just "move up, get shot, die, move up, get shot, die"

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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 23 2019, 13:43

@Cerve wrote:

2) You need to list them properly. If you will be a Tyr, Wyches are your Hormagants, not your Genestealers. These girls are expendable, you have to play something with more value around them. You should think "if my opponent is killing them, or is playing around them, it is nice". You can pair them with a lot of choices: with some footslogging Grotesques, with some Flayed Skulls Venoms around, stick them into a shooting list, everything is fine. But don't put your eggs on them, these girls are expendable.

On the idea of Wyches being comparable to Homogants rather than Genestealers, do you think you can get away with not giving them transports?

I'm thinking along the lines that a Battalion with 2 Succubi and 3 squads of Wyches (with Agonisers and Shardnets) is about 250pts for 5CPs.

The Wyches can screen against deep strikes but can also run up the board and see if they can tie some enemy units down (Succubi and other characters can go behind and hopefully do some damage).

Do you think this would be a reasonable use for them or do you need to invest more points to really make them a worthwhile inclusion?

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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 23 2019, 15:45

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Cerve wrote:

2) You need to list them properly. If you will be a Tyr, Wyches are your Hormagants, not your Genestealers. These girls are expendable, you have to play something with more value around them. You should think "if my opponent is killing them, or is playing around them, it is nice". You can pair them with a lot of choices: with some footslogging Grotesques, with some Flayed Skulls Venoms around, stick them into a shooting list, everything is fine. But don't put your eggs on them, these girls are expendable.

On the idea of Wyches being comparable to Homogants rather than Genestealers, do you think you can get away with not giving them transports?

I'm thinking along the lines that a Battalion with 2 Succubi and 3 squads of Wyches (with Agonisers and Shardnets) is about 250pts for 5CPs.

The Wyches can screen against deep strikes but can also run up the board and see if they can tie some enemy units down (Succubi and other characters can go behind and hopefully do some damage).

Do you think this would be a reasonable use for them or do you need to invest more points to really make them a worthwhile inclusion?

As a long time nid player, they are NOT hormaganst, not at all, do not play them as Hgants please dont.

Hgants are made to throw away, its 150pts for 30 bodies with 0 melee abilities (Str 3 hitting on 4+).

Wyches are a timed melee bomb that can tie up units, but 20 of them are 20pts more than 30 Hgants, if you want to tie up units like Hgants then take RWF's.

Wyches are going to be hitting on 2+ with some re-rolls, Str4, + a drug, + fight twice, and + double Drugs at times, they are in no way anything like Hgants. Hgants are fast moving Gants that you spend CP to move again or deal 4-5 MW's on the charge. they are there to get in the way and tie up tanks/take over watch.

Honestly, if anything Wyches are more like Genestealers than Hgants.

When i play Wyches its more like genestealers, getting deep in the ranks with multiply combats and fight twice, etc.., i also always play with at least 1x20, sometimes 2x20, 2x20 pulls os much more threat to them i feel, but having +1 atk, and +1 drug ones means i have more options and 1 isnt as important as the other, so if i need to sacrifice some i can. 1x20 doesnt give me that option, tho 320pts ish of wyches is also a lot.

Edit: Dont mean to sound rude about it, thats not my intent, just that i play heavy nids all the time and its not like Hgants.

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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 23 2019, 20:39

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Cerve wrote:

2) You need to list them properly. If you will be a Tyr, Wyches are your Hormagants, not your Genestealers. These girls are expendable, you have to play something with more value around them. You should think "if my opponent is killing them, or is playing around them, it is nice". You can pair them with a lot of choices: with some footslogging Grotesques, with some Flayed Skulls Venoms around, stick them into a shooting list, everything is fine. But don't put your eggs on them, these girls are expendable.

On the idea of Wyches being comparable to Homogants rather than Genestealers, do you think you can get away with not giving them transports?

I'm thinking along the lines that a Battalion with 2 Succubi and 3 squads of Wyches (with Agonisers and Shardnets) is about 250pts for 5CPs.

The Wyches can screen against deep strikes but can also run up the board and see if they can tie some enemy units down (Succubi and other characters can go behind and hopefully do some damage).

Do you think this would be a reasonable use for them or do you need to invest more points to really make them a worthwhile inclusion?

As a long time nid player, they are NOT hormaganst, not at all, do not play them as Hgants please dont.

Is that a no to the idea of very cheap Wych Battalions?

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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 24 2019, 09:46

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Cerve wrote:

2) You need to list them properly. If you will be a Tyr, Wyches are your Hormagants, not your Genestealers. These girls are expendable, you have to play something with more value around them. You should think "if my opponent is killing them, or is playing around them, it is nice". You can pair them with a lot of choices: with some footslogging Grotesques, with some Flayed Skulls Venoms around, stick them into a shooting list, everything is fine. But don't put your eggs on them, these girls are expendable.

On the idea of Wyches being comparable to Homogants rather than Genestealers, do you think you can get away with not giving them transports?

I'm thinking along the lines that a Battalion with 2 Succubi and 3 squads of Wyches (with Agonisers and Shardnets) is about 250pts for 5CPs.

The Wyches can screen against deep strikes but can also run up the board and see if they can tie some enemy units down (Succubi and other characters can go behind and hopefully do some damage).

Do you think this would be a reasonable use for them or do you need to invest more points to really make them a worthwhile inclusion?

As a long time nid player, they are NOT hormaganst, not at all, do not play them as Hgants please dont.

Is that a no to the idea of very cheap Wych Battalions?

There is a difference in 20mans with 3-4 upgrades and 5mans with 1. Even then why not use Kabals? They are cheaper and move almost as fast. If you are literally throwing them away and not wanting to do damage then thats not Wyches, Hganst are literally there to body block, you dont care if they do even a single wound of damage.

But remember Hgants are 5pts, 8" move and with Kraken roll 3D6 pick best for Advancement, can double move, has 6" pile in/consolidate, doesnt take any moral, is a 30man for 150pts. We dont have anything like that, Hganst are good b.c they are fast and cheap.

Tyranids playing Hgants win b.c they control the board, they are playing with 60 Hgants, and 140 Tgants. If someone is playing Genestealers/Swarmlord, Tyrants, Hiveguard, they dont play with Hganst normally, they use Rippers (3-4 units of them) b.c they are even cheaper and they are DSing troops (33pts a unit) makes super cheap battalions.


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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 24 2019, 10:19

I don't see a problem with a cheap Wych battalion. 5 man squads with shardnets screen well against deep strikers, can tie up advancing melee threats and sit objectives. Just don't expect them to live long against shooting, so look for LoS blocking if you can.
However, Wyches can be so much more, and I have been using them in my games consistently. I'm running two 10 mans in raiders and one 5 man on foot. A properly executed charge from Wyches is a thing of beauty, and they can do serious damage. They can be superb tanks in combat too. For me, they are the best troop choice in our codex.

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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 24 2019, 17:36

@amishprn86 wrote:

There is a difference in 20mans with 3-4 upgrades and 5mans with 1. Even then why not use Kabals? They are cheaper and move almost as fast.

Because I already have a Kabal Battalion and even if the Rule of 3 didn't exist, I still wouldn't want to include another two worthless Archons (the first two already have that covered). Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 24 2019, 18:39

@yellabelly wrote:
I don't see a problem with a cheap Wych battalion. 5 man squads with shardnets screen well against deep strikers, can tie up advancing melee threats and sit objectives. Just don't expect them to live long against shooting, so look for LoS blocking if you can.
However, Wyches can be so much more, and I have been using them in my games consistently. I'm running two 10 mans in raiders and one 5 man on foot. A properly executed charge from Wyches is a thing of beauty, and they can do serious damage. They can be superb tanks in combat too. For me, they are the best troop choice in our codex.

Cheap, 5 man units of Wyches seem like way better lockdown units to me than Kabalites. They're not as good at screening as, say, Razorwing Flocks but they're still pretty decent at the role and they can help net you more command points.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 24 2019, 20:58

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:

There is a difference in 20mans with 3-4 upgrades and 5mans with 1. Even then why not use Kabals? They are cheaper and move almost as fast.

Because I already have a Kabal Battalion and even if the Rule of 3 didn't exist, I still wouldn't want to include another two worthless Archons (the first two already have that covered). Razz

Umm... you can have 2 Succubus and 3x5 kabals in a detachment Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 25 2019, 00:15

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:

There is a difference in 20mans with 3-4 upgrades and 5mans with 1. Even then why not use Kabals? They are cheaper and move almost as fast.

Because I already have a Kabal Battalion and even if the Rule of 3 didn't exist, I still wouldn't want to include another two worthless Archons (the first two already have that covered). Razz

Umm... you can have 2 Succubus and 3x5 kabals in a detachment Razz

I suppose that's technically true. Neutral

Though this just makes me question whether I really need the extra CP at all.

Is 5 CP worth it for ~200pts consisting of 2 dead HQ choices and 3 Warrior squads bereft of Kabal bonuses?

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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 25 2019, 00:41

@Soulless Samurai wrote:

I'm thinking along the lines that a Battalion with 2 Succubi and 3 squads of Wyches (with Agonisers and Shardnets) is about 250pts for 5CPs.

I've run this before, a small Strife Battalion alongside a typical Black Heart core of Kabalites, transports Ravagers and Razorwings etc, and had great success. You need to keep a pair of Raiders of some Venoms free for them.

With 5 model units you don't have to worry about morale as much so you aren't forced to go Cursed Blade. I pick Strife for three reasons:

1) You get more swings per model base which I value more than one extra strength.

2) If you can afford Agonisers on the Hekatrixes, your extra strength that you would get on Cursed Blade doesn't go to waste, plus your Agonisers would get one more swing, as part of the first reason.

3) You can make one of the Succubi a bit of a beatstick with Blood Dancer (Alliance of Agony) + Triptich Whip Relic combo. She can reliably chew through monsters, and if you roll like a god she can just go off. On turn 3 and onwards, her rolls of 5s to hit explode into 3 which is nuts.

Usually I just go without Agonisers to keep the Battalion cheap, sometimes I'll even sub out the Shardnets if I need the points elsewhere. Your detachment is here primarily to provide +5 cp and then as a secondary role to bully light units.

Cult of Strife Battalion:

Succubus with Glaive and Splinter Pistol - Hypex/Serpentin*
Succubus with Glaive, Triptich Whip, and Blood Dancer - Hypex/Serpentin*
5x Wych with Shardnet - Adrenalight
5x Wych with Shardnet - Grave Lotus
5x Wych with Shardnet - Painbringer

* These drugs are both deceptively good on a Succubus, either making her Glaive hit on 2s as normal or giving her an enormous base move of 10" so that she can get where she needs quickly. You can swap their drug load out depending what you're against and how you think you'll need to run the two of them.

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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 25 2019, 15:52

i personally love big Wych squads and am experimenting with 2-3 15-20 man (woman?) squads currently. here's why:

1. Board control- In a game that is usually determined by objectives and controlling the board, Wyches on the cheap do it great. As they climb up the board, they scour the board and enable you to control it.

2. Melee Mob- I run Cursed Blade Wyches. They are highly effective against any basic infantry in the game. Where most mobs or hordes lack CC punch, Wyches excel at it. No one will want to CC you to death and have morale take care of the rest like other hordes.

3. Last Man Syndrome- Wyches are good to the last man (woman... again!). They can tie up hard to kill units and actually kill them (With Cursed Blade IMO more than others) while other hordes are just there to sit or take up space.

4. Target Priority- My meta is all over the place in Colorado. You will see the usual net list to other things that are weird. But, the one constant is that people are unsure what to kill. If they are staring down 45-60 wyches, 3 ravagers, and a mob of grotesques they do not know what to kill first. They kill the Wyches, it takes 2-3 turns and they have to endure the firing of everything and then have the grotesques sweep in. If they ignore the Wyches, those 2-3 squads will kill everything or at least live long enough to hold objectives and win the game that way.

Large squads are great, but you need to run multiple of them IMO. 1 squad will die and will not be able to serve its purpose as stated above. 3 squads though will help win the game.

Now with DSing. I have DS squads in some games. i think it is a game by game decision. It depends on a multitude of factors. How much terrain? What kind of army is your opponent playing? What is deployment? Do they have backfield units? How did they deploy? I firmly believe you shouldn't go into a game with a set strategy for everyone because it doesn't work like that, this game doesn't work like that... if you do you will lose. Now, the bets part of our army is we actually have deployment options! We can elect to DS if we want, or not! So go into the and analyze their army and deployment and all of the other factors then determine whether you DS wyches or not.

I think there are games when Wyches are played like Gaunts and the Drugs you give them lend them to that. I also think you can play a squad like Genestealers depending on drugs and DS ability. We need to stop looking at Wyches in a vacuum and realize they can play many roles depending on what we need and want them to do. Yes they can die in droves and serve a horde/bullet magnet role. or they can be an elite killer that munches through enemies on their way to flanking and scoring objectives.

All in all, I think Wyches are sensational when taken in large squads. i personally have not taken small squads in transports because I feel other units can do what they can in small numbers better, but YMMV.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 27 2019, 09:54

I don't feel them like Genestealers at all just because Wyches are expendables, Genos not.
I terms of hitting, yes, Wyches fights better than Hormagants, but by no meaning they are valuable as Gnestealers.
I never deepstrike them because their charge capabilities isn't good. Basically you have to roll a 9 and even with the reroll (by pfp or 1CP, which are different) it still difficult. And wyches are fragile, they are expendable but it doesn't mean throwing them into an useless death.

For me, there are 2 ways for playing big mobs of footslogging wyches:
1- in an heavy horde Wyches list;
2- 2-3 units for some board control.

In the first case, you can't DS them all so it's better having them on the board and just swarm.
In the second case, if the enemy will wipe them out in the first turn....NICE! Those are probably the less important thing in the list, so I'm happy for the exchange. Grotesques, Reavers, Hellions (if someone wanna try them..), harlequins, craftworld bikes etc, Ok being honest, Wcyhes are something between Hormagants and Genestealers, but in means of being sacrificable I pair the ladies with Hormagants. For a Tyr, Genestealer are way more.valuable than Wyches for a DE in my opinion.
Ad I like more the 15 size squad than the 20 one. The footprint is a little smaller, you can hide them better if you need, you're losing even less Wyches if you're losing them, and the punch still pretty good for their 125 points.


I classify them as that distraction that is capable to hit as a truck if ignored, but nothing to cry for if you lose it.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 27 2019, 11:42

Ultimately Wyches aren't hormagaunts or genestealers. They're Wyches. Yes they are cheap and can be used as disposable if that suits your playstyle/plan. They can also hit like a truck if used right and can be integral to a list and important that they aren't thrown away cheaply. I love them, and my regular opponents have started targeting my wych filled raiders with pretty high priority nowadays. It's a pain!

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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 27 2019, 11:53

Im saying the play style, OFC they are not 100% like either. But Hgants you literally throw them away in large units, a large unit of wyches you do not. Heck I almost always use the Double Move stratagem thats makes you kill off some Hgants is more worth it than waiting a turn to be safe and charge later. NOPE i take 30xD6 (on a 1) MW's to move them again so they move 28" and sit on my opponents side and force them to shoot at them, 25 Hgants with 1" of 30 IG is very scary. Then when you also have 20 Genestealers and 2 Flyrants, its target overload.

I would never do that with a Wych unit, that was my point. I dont have 120 bodies to throw away, i have 60 bodies at the most.

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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 27 2019, 16:08

The reason hwy you can compare them to Gaunts is because they will die like them, in droves. But they are also like Stealers because they can hit hard. A good part about the Wyches is if they die, the majority of your list is still intact. My Battallion of Cursed Blade (x2 Succubus and ~45-60 wyches) is only between 500-600 point depending on the size of the Wyches. That leaves the bulk of your army left to do the fighting.
The best part is, is that you are forcing your opponent to make a choice and I think that is invaluable in 40k. If they kill the Wyches, it takes time and a lot of resources to do so, which leaves majority of your army intact and to be honest the better and more offensive parts of your army there for turns 2-6. If they ignore them, Wyches will wreck face. They will not only tie things up, but they will kill things and pull wounds on almost anything; especially with Cursed Blade. They only get better, as we know with PfP and once they get rolling, it will be hard to stop them. Infantry will have a helluva time leaving CC against them for them to be shot up, and again, they make up less than 1/3 of your army!
i am having a blast and winning many games with this playstyle. It is not one that people see (my favorite part) and one that people do not expect because Wyches are not seen as competitive is in a DE detachment instead of Ynnari.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 27 2019, 16:28

Most strongly competitive lists these days tend to be geared up to take out 120+ infantry models as quickly as possible. 60 footslogging Wyches will do very little in those circumstances, especially since with such a big footprint it'll be almost impossible to hide them and the weapons that are good at taking them out aren't good at taking out our bigger hitters. All you're doing is providing optimal targets for more of your opponent's weaponry.

Wychs can obviously be treated as throwaway units, but they're nowhere near as expendable as some of the cheaper infantry in the game. Guardsmen and Termagants are literally half the price of each Wych; we just can't match that level of disposability.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 28 2019, 06:38

Of course they are not SO expendable, you will look at Kabals for that. But Wyches can do a lot more than Guardsmen e co.

And by the way, I think the opposite: against hordes, Wyches is where they really shine.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 28 2019, 06:40

SCP Yeeman got this! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 04 2019, 00:19

First of all, thanks for all the replys, very useful, all of them. I didnt reply before because i was on holidays xd

You gave me lot of information and lot of useful resources to understand better the wyches.

Now, i think i'll use them in big units. Maybe 1 unit in the webway and the other one on foot. I really believe wyches is a really great unit. But they need a distraction to be able to assault.

So, i have another tournament on July 28 and i want to use wyches again. My next idea involves using talos to control the center of the table. I'll post my list in the correct subforum and you can see it.

And again guys, thanks for all the reply, very useful. I'll tell you how i goes with the wyches!
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PostSubject: Re: Need help with Wyches.   Need help with Wyches. I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 10 2019, 15:59

I can't speak much on using giant wych blobs, but I do like 10 mans in raiders a lot. Yeah you're losing out on some bodies due to paying for a transport, but 10 is a good medium size which lets you take all the cult weapons, the raider is a nice shield from small arms fire for a bit, and it pretty much guarantees a turn two charge. I do think it works best when you have lots of wyches for target saturation, I use to run 2x units in raiders and then 5 in a venom to fill out a battalion, but I'm working towards running 3-4 units of 10 in raiders for lots of target saturation.


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