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Ollie
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Ollie

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PostSubject: Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice   Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 21 2019, 05:49

Hi all!

Wanted to get some feed back on on my beginning list for a 2k escalation campaign I am part of.

For the first couple weeks at 500p being battle forged is not necessary and everyone is starting with 5cp.

Since i will be unable to change units / detachment attributes (We can add to existing units) I am worried that i may trap myself into something i cant use / do not want.


Questions:
- Are Ravagers with Dark Lances still good? i want to run about 1200p Wych cult so i was thinking of using them for anti tank rather then anti inf.

-Venom's with out a second splinter cannon. Is this okay? or am i going to look back on this and wish i had taken them?

-Cult of the Red Grief. I think this will be great on the bikes but i want to run two 20 man wyches units and deep strike them in. along with 12 bikes. is this cult i want?
At 2k I was thinking of taking triple battalions (2 Cults 1 Kabal)


List:
Detachment Attribute
. Kabal of the Black Heart

+ HQ +

Archon [4 PL, 76pts]: Huskblade, Labyrinthine Cunning, Splinter pistol, Warlord (Archon)
. Writ of the Living Muse

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

+ Heavy Support +

Ravager [7 PL, 140pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

+ Dedicated Transport +

Venom [4 PL, 65pts]: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

Venom [4 PL, 65pts]: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle


Detachment Attribute
. Cult of the Red Grief

+ Fast Attack +[/b]

Reavers [3 PL, 60pts]: Grav-Talon
. Arena Champion
. 2x Reaver

++ Total: [26 PL, 500pts] ++
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amishprn86
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amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice   Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 23 2019, 13:07

Sadly Ravagers with DL are not good, a DL is only better by 0.66 wounds vs Rhino like vehicles (T6/T7, 3+), but is worst against literally everything else, and i mean literally everything else, if its T5, if its infantry/heavy infantry, if its Land Raiders, if it has an Invul, etc.. B.c DC are better and are Cheaper, there is never a reason to take 3 DL's, you are saving 15pts. DL honestly needs to go down to 15pts and DC needs to be 20pts. GW doesnt understand how 8th math works yet and you can tell. With Invuls, and random D6 damage, a solid damage more value attack with always be better.

Math to show proof:
 

Venoms without the 2nd SC is good, there is some arguement to what is better, but the more Venoms you take the less important the 2nd SC is, remember its 10pts for 1 extra shot and extra range, but if you take 7 Venoms, that 10pts means you can take an 8th Venom, which is equal shots and more wounds, your damage mitigation is spread out now. But if you are taking only 3 or 4 then yeah it is worth it, but at lower point level its never worth it, 30-40pts at 500pts means you can get more stuff and more stuff at lower points is better than slightly better same stuff (to a point), its all about squeezing in more wounds and more damage at the same time. If you have 2 Venoms and 2 Kabals, you are limiting your wounds, if you can survive longer you'll get more shots, meaning 20pts here, 10pts there you can get another 5 kabals, thats 5 more wounds with 5-10 more shots. At higher points this is still important but many other factors are involved, Supporting HQ's, Hammer and Anvil units, etc.. sometimes more wounds and more weaker shots isnt good enough due to Knights, Flyers, etc.. and you need to amke sure you can get the job done.

This is why 500pts games used to be very VERY popular in tournaments, its a completely different game, completely different mind set. Dark Reapers in a Wave Serpent are 100x strong in 500pts than in 2k, in 2k they might not do much, but survivability mix with damage and speed is insane at lower levels.


So for your list, Change the DL Ravager to DC, that'll save you 15pts, i would personally go Shredders over blasters at low levels too, those 2 changes means you save 33pts, enough for another Kabal unit.

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Ollie
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Ollie

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PostSubject: Re: Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice   Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 25 2019, 00:42

Cheers @amishprn86
unfortunately i didn't have any shredders so i kept the Kabalite's with blasters

I followed some of your advice though and switch the DL's out for those DC's and oh man i am glad i did. They do some serious work!!

Ive had 2 games so far, both against a Dark angels list including:
Primaries Lieutenant - +1 to hit warlord trait.
8 tac marines - flamer
5 hell blasters
5 terminators -PF/SB

His game plan revolved around giving the Hell Blasters +1 to hit, re rolling 1s to hit/wound, plus an extra damage from weapons of the dark age.
As well as deep striking the terminators in and firing twice for a total of 40 storm bolter shots!

The first game went the best. I flew a Venom up the board and sniped a Hell blaster with its blaster while everything else sat back to shoot up his tac sqaud. The following turn his hell blasters overcharged and shoot into that venom with +1 to hit from his lieutenant. (I guess he didn't realize the are always -1 to hit?) I used Light fast reactions for another -1 to hit and he proceeded to roll quadruple 2's out of 8 shots! After that the game was a bit of a clean up.

The Second game was a bit closer. He rolled a bit better and was able to destroy both venom's in a single turns shooting with the hell blasters with out losing any, the Ravager was able to kill off 4 of them in return and the last was finished off by a blaster.
Turn 2, his terminators arrived and sniped my warlord but didn't get to shoot twice due to Agents of Vect. They then failed there charge and where killed the following turn by the Ravager and the Bikes with a MW on the charge.

Pretty happy with how both games went, will definitely be sticking to DC's in the Future! The put in some serious damage.

Will be updating this list to a 750 point one for next week and would love some feed back on it then.

Will post list soon

Cheers Smile



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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice   Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 25 2019, 08:52

Nice to see more Kiwis picking up Dark Eldar Twisted Evil

@Ollie wrote:
-Venom's with out a second splinter cannon. Is this okay? or am i going to look back on this and wish i had taken them?

I rarely ever take a second Splinter Cannon, and I've never regretted it. I think an easy way to look at is if you're playing Venoms in Flayed Skull, there's an argument both ways; with or without the extra Cannon, so if you have points spare they're a good place to spend them, but if you're playing Venoms in any other sub-faction, don't take the extra Cannons. They just don't add enough to a cheap transport for their price.

@Ollie wrote:
-Cult of the Red Grief. I think this will be great on the bikes but i want to run two 20 man wyches units and deep strike them in. along with 12 bikes. is this cult i want?

Hmmm, Red Grief are primarily known for their Reavers, so if you wanted to just go Reavers, I'd say go with Red Grief all the way. However, in my view, their Wyches are the weakest of the three cult picks. To be clear, Wyches being able to Advance and Charge is very nice, and it can help secure a turn 1 charge. However, as soon as you declare they can do this, most competent opponents will simply pre measure and deploy accordingly to be safe from the turn 1 charge. Then, from turn 2, re rolling charges is picked up for free with our army-wide with Power From Pain anyway, so half of your trait goes to waste.

On Reavers though, Red Grief is nuts, and it's really difficult for opponents to properly hide from their turn 1 charges.

@Ollie wrote:
At 2k I was thinking of taking triple battalions (2 Cults 1 Kabal)

You'll struggle fitting in three battalions as our HQ picks are so limited - you have to bring Lelith, Drazhar or a Ynnari character to get by the 'Rule Of Three', as well as three other succubi - so you're paying a tonne of HQ tax. Instead, I could suggest going for:

1)
One Cult of Strife / Cult of Cursed Blade Battalion Detachment with your big blobs of Wyches and 2 HQs of your choice; Succubi or the aforementioned special characters.

2)
One Cult of Red Grief Outrider Detachment with a single Succubus and as many Reavers as you'd like to play.
OR
One Ynarri Drukhari Outrider Detachment with your preferred Ynnari character leading it, and as many Reavers as you'd like to play.

This maximises the trait strengths for each of these unit types, and cuts down on tax at the same time.

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Ollie
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PostSubject: Re: Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice   Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 26 2019, 01:09

@hydranixx I've been meaning to start playing them for sooooo long they are defiantly one of my favorite factions, however the painting always scared me off. - also cheers for the advice, a small outrider detachment does seem like the way to go.

List update for 750pts:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP ++

Detachment Attribute
. Kabal of the Black Heart

+ HQ +

Archon [4 PL, 76pts]: Huskblade, Labyrinthine Cunning, Splinter pistol, Warlord (Archon)
. Writ of the Living Muse

Archon [4 PL, 76pts]: Huskblade, Splinter pistol

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

+ Heavy Support +

Ravager [7 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

Ravager [7 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Venom [4 PL, 65pts]: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

Venom [4 PL, 65pts]: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment Attribute
. Cult of the Red Grief

+ Fast Attack +

Reavers [3 PL, 77pts]: Grav-Talon
. Arena Champion
. Reaver
. Reaver : Blaster

++ Total: [39 PL, 750pts] ++

The Problem i am running into now is that I cant seem to get the Reavers into any kind of legal detachment while also adding an extra troop/HQ options for the Battalion (Even more so because i will not be able to change the units later down the track)

Currently i think it might be best if i just do not run the Reavers for this round so that my list is battle forged since i will lose out on the relic and 3CP.
Although this will mean i will be 77 points down in a 750 point list...

Also one of the units of Kabalites will have to wait to get a Venom transport.

I am currently 2-0 so even if i drop a game or both i fell like it will be worth it since it would ruin my list later down the track.

Would love some thoughts and feed back or even a list rewrite if anyone can figure out how to make it work better?

Cheers
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hydranixx
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hydranixx

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PostSubject: Re: Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice   Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 26 2019, 02:57

What are the rules for the campaign? Once you take a unit, does that unit HAVE to stay in the original detachment? Does it have to retain the same points and upgrades, or could you add models and upgrades to the unit, but not remove them once taken? Knowing the answers to these will help us to help you shape your list.

In the short term, as long as you're allowed to take more than one Detachment, and that units can change their Detachment later on in the campaign, you can just take your Reavers in a Auxiliary Detachment for 1 CP, as that won't cost you your Battle Forged CP. Then later on as the points climb, you could adjust this to an Outrider.

If this doesn't work, you could just go for playing 77 points less, as your Kabal core is really strong for the points bracket. I would definitely feel comfortable playing that. You could even throw a Blaster onto your Archon(s) for 17 or 34 pts to bring you closer to your full 750 pts. Blasters on Archons are good as they're very accurate with their BS 2+ and re rolling 1s. They'll rarely feel like a poor choice.


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Ollie
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PostSubject: Re: Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice   Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 26 2019, 03:48

@hydranixx I completely forgot about regular Auxiliary Detachments! I don't think i have ever had to use them before. if i do this i do lose my 'Cult trait' though?

Regarding the rules:
Units taken can not be changed once taken, including faction key words (I'm stuck with Red Grief on those Reavers), you can however add additions to that unit.

Example: I could add another 6 models to the Reaver unit but i couldn't go back and now give the Leader a power sword or switch the current blaster for a heat lance.

As for Detachments they are interchangeable so i can just take that Auxiliary Detachment for now.


By the sounds of it this weekends games will be 2v2's with a full 3 'round robin' games between my Dark Elder, Orks, Admech (with a warglave) and that Dark angels List. Any advice on how best to deal with Da Jump boys and warglaves at 500pts would be great!
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice   Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 26 2019, 04:48

Yeah, I think in that case grabbing 3 vanilla Reavers in their own Aux is fine. As far as I know, most codexes, including ours, allow units in their Aux detachments to get their regular trait bonus, but they won't be able to use any stratagems, unless you include at least one other detachment from the same Codex.

[As an aside, in standard play with the 3 Detachment cap, you could play any combination of 1-2 detachments of Kabal, Coven, and/or Cult, and then include a Aux Detachment of 5 Black Heart Kabalites to 'unlock' Agents of Vect, even if you didn't take a regular Black Heart Detachment.]

@Ollie wrote:
Any advice on how best to deal with Da Jump boys and warglaves at 500pts would be great!

Easy match ups, don't worry.

Without well-supported Lootas Orks are quite weak against us, and I don't think they can really support Lootas sufficiently at less than 1000 pts. Splinter weapons mulch their basic units in no time, Disintegrators will kill anything else they have with impunity.

Blasters will destroy the Warglaive without any trouble. His T7 is pretty weak to S8, and he has to come close to do anything, so he'll always be in range of your weaponry. Even if you just chip a few wounds off, he becomes drastically less accurate in melee and shooting so he'll struggle to earn his points back against you.

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Ollie
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PostSubject: Re: Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice   Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 04 2019, 00:18

@hydranixx Cheers for the tips, Ended up just being two 1v1s against Ad Mech and those Dark angels but i came away with another 2 wins Very Happy currently 4-0

The highlight was one of my 4 wound venom's charging and surviving two assault rounds against the Warglave before flying off on 1 wound to take an objective on my following turn Shocked
If any one is interested i am happy to do a write up.

On another note i am starting to wonder if it is worth me trying to forge next weeks 750p list from a Black Heart Battalion into a brigade? how good are Kabal Brigades? I have a bunch of Scourges and i wouldn't mind putting them to use since this will give me a reason to paint them as well. It seems like the only thing i would need to add would be 15 Incubii to make this work but then i wont have to worry about taking a second Cult battalion for CP and can focus the rest of my list on that Red Grief out rider detachment.

@amishprn86 I would love your thoughts on this as well if you have time (You seem pretty competitive and i am super glad I followed your advice with those DC's they have basically won me every game so far.)
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice   Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 04 2019, 01:50

@Ollie wrote:
On another note i am starting to wonder if it is worth me trying to forge next weeks 750p list from a Black Heart Battalion into a brigade? how good are Kabal Brigades?

Our brigades are really weak, I couldn't recommend it.

All the good brigade lists feature HQs, Elites and Fast Attacks that are either dirt cheap, or are force multipliers, or both. We get none of that, and because half our special rules are tied to specifically Cult/Coven/Kabal, we only have about half the codex available for any given brigade (provided you want to keep these special rules).

Generally I find that one Battalion and a couple of +1 CP detachments is enough for me; ie Battalion plus two of: Spearhead/Airwing/Outrider/Vanguard. You can go double Battalions without too much issue too.

If you're interested going Ynarri, here's a thread about Ynarri brigade ideas: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t18589-ynarri-drukhari-brigades-trash-or-genius

Going this way means you can ignore the Kabal / Cult divisions and just get 'good stuff' you want. They also get a strat to charge after advancing, so their Reavers are almost as good as Red Grief Reavers.

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Ollie
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PostSubject: Re: Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice   Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 04 2019, 02:57

@hydranixx I think I am a little stuck since i wont be able to change the Black Heart Keywords on the current units to put them into a ynarri detachment.

I wasn't planning on trying to fill out a brigade, however i it looks like i will be using 5 units of warriors, 2 Archons, 2 units of Scourges, and 3 ravagers. Since i would only need to add in another Archon, 1 unit of warriors 3 units of Mandrakes or Incubii and another unit of Scourges to get another 7 CP it seems like a no brainier. Also Mandrakes seem like there capable of pulling there weight in a list? so the only real tax would that 3rd Archon.

The other option is i could take those 2 units of scourges as part of that Red Grief outrider detachment with a single unit of 12 bikes and just leave the Battalion with 3 units of warriors. This should give me enough points for another Cult battalion?
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice   Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 07 2019, 02:33

I mean, sure, that's an option. For my part, I actually quite like Scourges and Mandrakes. Without Doom around anymore though, I just don't think they're worth including for the purposes of filling out a Brigade though.

Bear in mind the cheapest Brigade you can get requires 3 Archons, 6 squads of Kabalites, 3 squads of Mandrakes, 3 squads of Scourges, and 3 Ravagers. With the cheapest loadouts, and without a single upgrade or transport, that's costing you a tidy 941 pts.


If you really want to go down the Brigade route, I suggest you make at least some of your troops multiple cheap squads of Kabalites in Raiders as gunboats to save upgrade and transport points - for example 20 Kabalites split in four units in two Raiders sets you back a meagre 280 points. Let me know how you get on Smile

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Ollie
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PostSubject: Re: Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice   Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 07 2019, 21:11

@hydranixx over the weekend I managed to try out a test game with a brigade and it was a complete dumpster fire. Even with careful placement, all 3 units of scourges where dead by the start of his turn 3 (they used deep strike turn 2 as well) and my mandrakes failed there charges so they didn't really make there points back. Finally my ravagers got focused fired since are the scariest thing i had on the table.

Game ended with me having 4 venom's left at the beginning of my turn 3. All in all i don't think i will be taking a brigade for this campaign after all... could have saved myself a bunch of time and just followed your advice but hey i learnt a lesson at least Laughing
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice   Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 08 2019, 02:15

@Ollie wrote:
@hydranixx over the weekend I managed to try out a test game with a brigade and it was a complete dumpster fire. Even with careful placement, all 3 units of scourges where dead by the start of his turn 3 (they used deep strike turn 2 as well) and my mandrakes failed there charges so they didn't really make there points back. Finally my ravagers got focused fired since are the scariest thing i had on the table.

Game ended with me having 4 venom's left at the beginning of my turn 3. All in all i don't think i will be taking a brigade for this campaign after all... could have saved myself a bunch of time and just followed your advice but hey i learnt a lesson at least Laughing

Ouch!

Yeah, Dark Eldar are an army where there's no room for error, and when you're playing expensive T3 infantry with 1 wound each, which even a humble lasgun can chew through, you really, really need to know exactly what you're doing with them.

That's why most people just focus on going vehicle heavy, where we have more advantages.

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PostSubject: Re: Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice   Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 09 2019, 21:31

@hydranixx you seem to be the only guy that follows this thread, however you have also been a gold mine of info that has really helped me out.

I was hoping to pick your brain on tactics against orks and how best to deal with things such as 'Da jump" I finally managed to have my first game against them for this campaign and man it was rough...
by the end of turn 4 the only things left were 10 grots and my archon but lucky i did come away with the win.

How do you screen out against 30 shootaboys and 10 choppa's turn one? even more so when he is is putting dakka dakka on them. With my current model count should i be spreading out my deployment and making him pick what to kill? or just deploying the kabalites and screening since the blasters are redundant?

I was rolling hot crap of my archons ++2 and if i hadn't been i definitely would have lost this.
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PostSubject: Re: Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice   Escalation campaign - Drukhari List Advice I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 12 2019, 05:25

Orks vs Dark Eldar is an interesting match up.

In my view both factions have a good amount of tools that really hurt one another (Dakka Dakka Dakka rule, Lootaguns, Da Jump are all very good against Dark Eldar, whereas our splinter weapon and Venoms in general chew through Orks fast and Agents of Vect is a game changer)

Something to consider is that if Orks touch your Venoms in combat, the units onboard can't shoot (as they don't have the Fly rule so when the Venom falls back, they are not able to shoot) so you lose a good amount of your firepower. Instead, consider deploying the lads and ladies out of LOS in ruins to protect them from Ork shooting, but still close enough that they can move to get within 3" of their Venoms.

Then, screen with your Venoms themselves. Putting a good amount of space between them will push the screen out further and prevent them from fighting two or more at once. Basic Ork shooting and fighting does almost nothing to Venoms, even with the More Dakka strat. S4 without any AP is just not efficient at beating T5 with a 4+ and 6+++. They might be able to put it down in combat after shooting it first, especially with Big Choppas or Powerklaws, but then their 200+ unit is exposed after killing your 65 pt venom - as long as you haven't left any ground models close enough for them to wrap and take prisoner. Just make sure you kill them all, every single one. They get extremely good Leadership when other big blobs are around, and if you leave even one Ork alive, Green Tide can bring the entire unit back.

Another 'trick' to keep in mind is that even if you're in stuck in melee, a transport can still rescue models by getting within 3" of them, so your even if your unit has been taken prisoner, it can still be pulled out of combat to open the Orks up for shooting.

Now, if there are Lootas, circumstances are very different, and you need to gun them down asap. Agents of Vect stopping Grot Shield is absolutely huge, because if you can cripple or kill the entire Loota blob in one go without taking much fire from them, this will almost win you the game outright.

Of course, a smart Ork player will consider putting them in deep strike to protect them, but as soon as they appear, they've moved so their shooting is diminished. Consider using Agents of Vect on More Dakka if this is the case, so that they're only fishing for 6s, rather than 5s and 6s. Then on the following turn, make sure you have a plan to deal with them asap.

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