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 Kabal vs Triple Knights

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Ezrealo
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PostSubject: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 18 2019, 06:42

How do you deal with triple knights in a pure Kabal list? I've run the mathhammer, and I don't see how we can achieve this consistently.

Rather, I am interested in a primarily speedy ranged army, so would even consider craftworld or harlequin allies.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 18 2019, 08:07

Pretty sure that "try to win through objectives rather than killing the Knights" is the simple answer.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 18 2019, 09:50

@Burnage wrote:
Pretty sure that "try to win through objectives rather than killing the Knights" is the simple answer.

I tried this but was let down by some fine print in the rules.

Apparently 'globs of semi-vaporised matter that were once units' aren't actually eligible for scoring objectives.

Wink


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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 18 2019, 20:37

12 venoms and 12 Kabal units, 3 Ravagers and 3 RWJF, then just flood the table and take all objectives.

If you are ITC you need allies or Coven to help.

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 18 2019, 20:51

Haywire ... lots and lots of haywire... so definitely quin allies and as many scourge/talos squads as you have available...
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2019, 03:45

Probably not what you were hoping to hear but pure Kabal can’t really “deal” with triple Knight lists. The loss of access to Doom and Jinx really hurts our ability to kill Knights efficiently. Your best bet would be allying in 12 Harlequin Skyweavers or 10 or more Dark Reapers to have a chance of quickly killing a Knight in one turn. Then just pray that enough of your army survives the counterpunch to kill a second Knight in the next few turns. Mass haywire from either Skyweavers, Scourges, or Talos are the best chance we have of killing a Knight in shooting. But it takes A LOT more than you might think to bring one down with haywire without Doom.
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Sarcron
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2019, 04:08

Other than these, you can also go for talos spam + Urien + vexator

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2019, 05:05

What are the maths says about the reapers?
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2019, 11:59

@dumpeal wrote:
What are the maths says about the reapers?

The vehicle? They're basically the same as Dark Lance Ravagers. Slightly better on average if they haven't moved, slightly worse if they have.

Dark Reapers are considerably better, a fully buffed unit of three will deal 4 wounds to a Knight compared to a DL Ravager's 1.75.

A Dissie Ravager with a Writ Archon will do 2.7. Dark Reapers are way better potential firepower than anything we can bring.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2019, 13:18

It depends ALOT about which Knights are there, and the rest of the list. But the best way is to kill everything else around the Knights and just contain them. Expecially if they are Gallant, you can contain them pretty well.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2019, 13:50

You also could just take 6 Skyweavers, i have them in all my list for any comp game (Do to knights), they no longer can do 40 wounds a turn to knights, but still able to do around 10+ and are -2/3++ if you go first, or -2/4++ if you go second.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2019, 17:11

Funny story: EM never worked with Doom, but a lot of players never known it (no one read.the Designer's Commentary faq, even GW itself I guess) so it was allowed anyway in a lot of events. Lol.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2019, 18:04

@Cerve wrote:
Funny story: EM never worked with Doom, but a lot of players never known it (no one read.the Designer's Commentary faq, even GW itself I guess) so it was allowed anyway in a lot of events. Lol.

Wait, what's EM?
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2019, 18:27

ah sorry, in english is Haywire lol. I forgot to translate in my mind
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2019, 18:51

Why would it not work with Haywire? Doom allows you to reroll any failed wound rolls of your choosing. Vs. a T8 knight, all rolls except for 6s will be failed wound rolls. Then you can choose which of the failed rolls that you want to reroll as per Doom RAW, most likely choosing to keep your 4s and 5s as-is, rather than rerolling them.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2019, 20:58

Well doom doesn't help now as doom specifies it has to be wounds done by an "Asuyani" unit so no haywire from any source except craftworld elder will reroll now ... and I'm not sure craftworld elder even have haywire (I don't know ceaftwolrd units that well)
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 20 2019, 17:17

I was referring to the pre-FAQ Doom, as that is what I'm pretty sure that Cerve was referring to.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 21 2019, 10:03

Precisely. Doom doen't work with Haywire even preFaQ. It never worked.
In designer's commentary faq there's an answer that says that any effect of any weapon triggers only after the reroll.
That's why if you roll a 1 with a PlasmaGun, and the ln you reroll it and you finally hit, your model doesn't die. Because the effect triggers only after the reroll.
So the Haywire should have been only after the second reroll. But no one read those FaQs, so the mistake were not only real but even acceptes as a viable tactic Smile
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 21 2019, 10:49

@Cerve wrote:
Precisely. Doom doen't work with Haywire even preFaQ. It never worked.
In designer's commentary faq there's an answer that says that any effect of any weapon triggers only after the reroll.
That's why if you roll a 1 with a PlasmaGun, and the ln you reroll it and you finally hit, your model doesn't die. Because the effect triggers only after the reroll.
So the Haywire should have been only after the second reroll. But no one read those FaQs, so the mistake were not only real but even acceptes as a viable tactic Smile

Uh, I don't see how this means Doom didn't work. People weren't stacking rerolls so you could get two sets of mortal wounds off a single hit, what was happening was that thanks to Doom's wording if the first roll caused a mortal wound but didn't normally wound you could choose not to reroll it. This made mortal wounds against tougher targets very consistent.

It's a moot point now, obviously.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 21 2019, 11:56

Nope, because Haywire is a special rule of the weapon. And any weapon special rule, in case of reroll, triggers always into the last roll only. But yes, right now it's just for chittychat
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 21 2019, 12:20

@Cerve wrote:
Nope, because Haywire is a special rule of the weapon. And any weapon special rule, in case of reroll, triggers always into the last roll only. But yes, right now it's just for chittychat

I'm still not seeing how this means Haywire wouldn't work. If you choose not to reroll a dice, the last roll of it is the first roll.

This does actually matter because the interaction can pop up elsewhere - Ynnari Lhameans, for instance.
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VladimirHerzog
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 21 2019, 13:56

@Cerve wrote:
Nope, because Haywire is a special rule of the weapon. And any weapon special rule, in case of reroll, triggers always into the last roll only. But yes, right now it's just for chittychat


It works because Doom says "you can reroll failed wound rolls". this means that you can keep your rolls of 4+ for the mortal wounds and reroll everything else. If Doom said "you reroll failed wound rolls" then you wouldnt have a choice, you would need to reroll those 4-5 against knights and possibly lose out on mortal wounds.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 21 2019, 21:40

Yes ok, but a lot of people used them wound at 6+.
So wound at 6+ (against T8 for example), roll a 4, get the mortal wound, reroll, get a 5, add a second one. This was wrong.
If you don't choose to reroll a die, it works. Because that became the actuall wound roll.
But if you decide to reroll your failed wound roll, then you have to "discard' the mortal wound because you're rerolling it.
A lot of people used to count both the rolls for the mortal wound, which was against the Designer's Commentary FaQ
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 22 2019, 07:50

@Cerve wrote:
Yes ok, but a lot of people used them wound at 6+.
So wound at 6+ (against T8 for example), roll a 4, get the mortal wound, reroll, get a 5, add a second one. This was wrong.
If you don't choose to reroll a die, it works. Because that became the actuall wound roll.
But if you decide to reroll your failed wound roll, then you have to "discard' the mortal wound because you're rerolling it.
A lot of people used to count both the rolls for the mortal wound, which was against the Designer's Commentary FaQ


I don't know of *anyone* who interpreted the rule in that way. Sounds like you had a bunch of cheaters in your local meta.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal vs Triple Knights   Kabal vs Triple Knights I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 22 2019, 10:19

@Cerve wrote:
Yes ok, but a lot of people used them wound at 6+.
So wound at 6+ (against T8 for example), roll a 4, get the mortal wound, reroll, get a 5, add a second one. This was wrong.
If you don't choose to reroll a die, it works. Because that became the actuall wound roll.
But if you decide to reroll your failed wound roll, then you have to "discard' the mortal wound because you're rerolling it.
A lot of people used to count both the rolls for the mortal wound, which was against the Designer's Commentary FaQ

I'll confess that this has me utterly baffled.

To me at least, 'If I reroll a dice, can I still use the original roll as well as the new one?' would seem to be along the same lines as 'If I concede, can I still win?' in terms of questions that really shouldn't need to be asked.


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