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 Kabalites; what special weapons for them?

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Kabalites; what special weapons for them?   Kabalites; what special weapons for them? I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 15 2019, 19:58

Been seeing some minor discussion about this around, and there seems to have been a definite shift towards Shredders in the tournament meta, so just wanted to kickstart a conversation about it here. Basically, what special weapons should Kabalites be equipped with?

Blasters have always seemed like the obvious choice to me - Splinter Rifles are fine (not good) against weak targets, so the Blaster adds some bite to the unit if it needs to attack something tougher. Especially so after the Codex when Blasters got buffed! But they have their downside; 17 points is quite a lot and makes Kabalite units considerably more expensive, and without Doom and Jinx their single shot is very unreliable.

Shredders are obviously great at killing infantry, with an in-built Doom equivalent, but D6 S6 AP-1 shots are actually pretty good against a lot of potential targets. Factor in that they cost less than half as much as a Blaster and they look even better. The big drawback, though, is the 12" range. The Blaster's 18 inches can leave the Kabalites worryingly vulnerable, so 12" is even worse; but on the plus side, it matches the rapid fire range of the standard splinter weaponry.

So which do we feel is best for Kabalites at the moment? The tide seems to have swung heavily against Blasters recently, and I can sort of see why... but in most cases dropping Blasters completely seems to leave us with very little heavy firepower remaining.

Just curious about others' thoughts and experiences about this.
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Sarcron
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites; what special weapons for them?   Kabalites; what special weapons for them? I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 15 2019, 20:54

In all the (admittedly few) games I've played with my DE, I've found blasters more useful. I've run separate squads, one with shredders, one with blasters, or both mixed. Generally it's just the range that has been the main issue, but then the other times when I have been in range, I've found that my wracks, or splinter shots, or other anti-screen generally does the trick.

That's not to say the shredders did badly, they always got a few wounds off, be it screens or some medium/heavy infantry. It's just that I've found the high-ap high damage shots to be more useful in the scenarios I find myself in.

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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites; what special weapons for them?   Kabalites; what special weapons for them? I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 15 2019, 23:08

Out of curiosity,

From reading the Codex albeit with a lack of understanding of all of the nuances, a 10 man squad of Kabs can take 1 Blaster and 1 Shredder along with a Heavy Weapon, say a Dark Lance. Is this correct ? Most often I see references to Kabs being run in squads of 5 on forums. But when I built my first few squads of Warriors I used 10 man.

So ... Am I misunderstanding this ?
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites; what special weapons for them?   Kabalites; what special weapons for them? I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 15 2019, 23:26

@Grimoire wrote:
Out of curiosity,

From reading the Codex albeit with a lack of understanding of all of the nuances, a 10 man squad of Kabs can take 1 Blaster and 1 Shredder along with a Heavy Weapon, say a Dark Lance. Is this correct ? Most often I see references to Kabs being run in squads of 5 on forums. But when I built my first few squads of Warriors I used 10 man.

So ... Am I misunderstanding this ?

You're not misunderstanding it, it's just more common to see five man Kabalite squads. Less vulnerable to leadership, can fit them in a Venom, fills up more detachment slots.

You could even take twenty Kabalites in a single unit and take four Blasters or Shredders and two Heavy Weapons.
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Grimoire
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites; what special weapons for them?   Kabalites; what special weapons for them? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 16 2019, 00:07

Ok - Thanks !
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites; what special weapons for them?   Kabalites; what special weapons for them? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 16 2019, 14:20

Personally, I'd still lean towards Blasters as the default option.

Shredders are okay in a vacuum, but seem rather redundant when you consider our other weapons. A lot of units (including the Kabalites themselves) are forced to take splinter weapons - so they've already got anti-infantry weapons by default. Not to mention that they're usually ridding in Venoms, which bring even more splinter weapons (and nothing else). What's more, Raiders, Ravagers, Razorwings etc. are almost always going to be packing Disintegrators - which will almost certainly be more effective against heavy infantry than Shredders.

In contrast, the prevalence of Disintegrators means that most lists will have relatively few Dark Lances (unless this has also reversed in the tournament scene?), so Blasters actually fill an important niche here. What's more, they give an otherwise anti-infantry squad some actual bite against monsters and vehicles.

Also, this might be more subjective but I find that my lists always struggle with armour-/monster-spam far more than they do against infantry. Hence, I'm looking to cover that weakness as best I can with special weapons.

Lastly, I'm very wary of weapons with 1d6 shots. Not only are they unreliable but the minuscule range means you'll usually only get to fire them once. If I roll badly on a Battle Cannon 48" away, I'll usually get to try again next turn. If I roll badly with a Shredder just 12" from the target, it's unlikely that squad will still exist by the time my next turn rolls around.

I'll grant that Shredders are quite a bit cheaper but even if I dropped all my Blasters for them, I still don't think I'd be able to afford anything of any significant value (let alone anything to make up for the anti-vehicle firepower I just gave away). At most, I could maybe see myself swapping out the Shredder in a single squad if I was a few points shy of including another Razorwing or something like that (and there was nothing else I was willing to drop instead).


I'm prepared to reconsider my decision if Blast Pistols ever get either 12" range or have their cost halved.


@Grimoire wrote:
Out of curiosity,

From reading the Codex albeit with a lack of understanding of all of the nuances, a 10 man squad of Kabs can take 1 Blaster and 1 Shredder along with a Heavy Weapon, say a Dark Lance. Is this correct ? Most often I see references to Kabs being run in squads of 5 on forums. But when I built my first few squads of Warriors I used 10 man.

So ... Am I misunderstanding this ?

As already mentioned, 5-man squads are far less vulnerable to Ld and get you free Sybarites. You can still fill a Raider with them (using 2 squads of 5), and they give you flexibility as you can have the squads go in different directions or have one get out to take an objective whilst the other remains in the Raider.

The main benefits of 10-man squads are:
- Opponent has to kill more men before special weapons die (IMO not much of an advantage, given how fragile Kabalites are).
- Can take a Heavy Weapon (virtually worthless as both of the special weapons available to Kabalites are terrible - Splinter Cannon is laughably bad and Dark Lance wants a platform that can move and fire without penalty).
- Can fit more into a single Battalion (Generally not an issue as Kabalites simply aren't worth spamming outside of very fluffy lists.)

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites; what special weapons for them?   Kabalites; what special weapons for them? I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 17 2019, 07:03

Blasters are definitely my go to choice. That doesn't make the Shredder a bad choice by any means, just that the Blaster will give a lot more utility for the above reasons.

I'd probably give the Shredder a lot more attention if it were avaliable on more melee focused units. A Shredder on a squad of Wyches, Wracks, or an Archon would be a solid investment.

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites; what special weapons for them?   Kabalites; what special weapons for them? I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 17 2019, 08:05

My biggest issue with the Shredder is that it has always felt like it should be a flamer. Not only do you have to hope for a good number of attacks (1d6 attacks is meh) but you also need to roll to hit with each attack as well, which can really neuter how much potential it has.

In general there's far too many match ups where Shredders just don't do anything. If you're up against Knights, Riptides, most Necron lists, Tyranid monsters, Dark Eldar, Space Marine Razorback spam, Guard Artillery spam etc, your Shredders may as well not exist, and since all too often your Splinter Weaponry is equally useless in those match ups - compounded further if they're riding in a Venom - your opponent can just entirely ignore your Shredderlite units and focus on other things.

On the other hand, because a single stray Kabalite with a Blaster can threaten any vehicle, monster, elite unit, or character in the game, your opponent always needs to respect that unit, and must kill it completely if they are to ever be completely safe from it.

I would consider Shredders more often if they had one or more of the following:

1) They automatically hit.
2) They had 6" more range.
3) They had a flat 4 shots instead of d6 shots.
4) They didn't compete with Blasters ie you could take both a Shredder and a Blaster in a squad of 5 Kabalites.

In their current rule set, Shredders do see some play in Scourge and Trueborn units (especially Obsidian Rose Trueborn), where putting 4 of them in a squad can net you good results against some opponents, and they're not prohibitively expensive. You can deep strike these units via stratagems or the Scourge special rule to get them where they need to go.

Another way to overcome their relatively short range is to put your unit(s) of Trueborn in a transport that uses Fire And Fade after shooting, so that they can get another 7" movement to hopefully bring them in range to fire, or alternatively against some opponents you could fire with the Trueborn first while they're in range, then with their transport which then uses Fire And Fade to get further away from the opponent. Just some food for thought.

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GreyArea
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites; what special weapons for them?   Kabalites; what special weapons for them? I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 17 2019, 13:35

Yeah, auto hitting would be nice. That would also help make them scary to charge for melee hordes. Shredder scourge especially would like that change.

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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites; what special weapons for them?   Kabalites; what special weapons for them? I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 17 2019, 15:35

@Soulless Samurai wrote:



@Grimoire wrote:
Out of curiosity,

From reading the Codex albeit with a lack of understanding of all of the nuances, a 10 man squad of Kabs can take 1 Blaster and 1 Shredder along with a Heavy Weapon, say a Dark Lance. Is this correct ? Most often I see references to Kabs being run in squads of 5 on forums. But when I built my first few squads of Warriors I used 10 man.

So ... Am I misunderstanding this ?

As already mentioned, 5-man squads are far less vulnerable to Ld and get you free Sybarites. You can still fill a Raider with them (using 2 squads of 5), and they give you flexibility as you can have the squads go in different directions or have one get out to take an objective whilst the other remains in the Raider.


Agree about Leadership. However I would beg to differ about the "free" Sybarite. As an example, how would *you* build two 5 man squads from a single box of Warriors ? And before you answer Very Happy How many 5 man squads do you run that follow this ????? I'd bet None. So ...... Free really isn't free.

Lets assume ( always dangerous ) that you equip your 5 man squads with Blasters, just to keep this on topic. Where does the extra Blaster come from ? You have to source one. Seldom free.

I get that it might not cost you extra in "points" But there is a cost however trivial it may be.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites; what special weapons for them?   Kabalites; what special weapons for them? I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 17 2019, 16:08

@Grimoire wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:



@Grimoire wrote:
Out of curiosity,

From reading the Codex albeit with a lack of understanding of all of the nuances, a 10 man squad of Kabs can take 1 Blaster and 1 Shredder along with a Heavy Weapon, say a Dark Lance. Is this correct ? Most often I see references to Kabs being run in squads of 5 on forums. But when I built my first few squads of Warriors I used 10 man.

So ... Am I misunderstanding this ?

As already mentioned, 5-man squads are far less vulnerable to Ld and get you free Sybarites. You can still fill a Raider with them (using 2 squads of 5), and they give you flexibility as you can have the squads go in different directions or have one get out to take an objective whilst the other remains in the Raider.


Agree about Leadership. However I would beg to differ about the "free" Sybarite. As an example, how would *you* build two 5 man squads from a single box of Warriors ? And before you answer Very Happy  How many 5 man squads do you run that follow this ????? I'd bet None. So ...... Free really isn't free.

Lets assume ( always dangerous ) that you equip your 5 man squads with Blasters, just to keep this on topic. Where does the extra Blaster come from ? You have to source one. Seldom free.

I get that it might not cost you extra in "points" But there is a cost however trivial it may be.

Two five man squads, one with a Blaster, one with a Shredder. That's a fine loadout for both of them.

In general though, yeah, it's a pain that we're lacking special weapons on the physical kits compared to what we can equip in the rules. Scourges and Trueborn in particular are a nightmare to equip properly.
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Sarcron
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites; what special weapons for them?   Kabalites; what special weapons for them? I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 17 2019, 19:13

@Burnage wrote:
@Grimoire wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:



@Grimoire wrote:
Out of curiosity,

From reading the Codex albeit with a lack of understanding of all of the nuances, a 10 man squad of Kabs can take 1 Blaster and 1 Shredder along with a Heavy Weapon, say a Dark Lance. Is this correct ? Most often I see references to Kabs being run in squads of 5 on forums. But when I built my first few squads of Warriors I used 10 man.

So ... Am I misunderstanding this ?

As already mentioned, 5-man squads are far less vulnerable to Ld and get you free Sybarites. You can still fill a Raider with them (using 2 squads of 5), and they give you flexibility as you can have the squads go in different directions or have one get out to take an objective whilst the other remains in the Raider.


Agree about Leadership. However I would beg to differ about the "free" Sybarite. As an example, how would *you* build two 5 man squads from a single box of Warriors ? And before you answer Very Happy  How many 5 man squads do you run that follow this ????? I'd bet None. So ...... Free really isn't free.

Lets assume ( always dangerous ) that you equip your 5 man squads with Blasters, just to keep this on topic. Where does the extra Blaster come from ? You have to source one. Seldom free.

I get that it might not cost you extra in "points" But there is a cost however trivial it may be.

Two five man squads, one with a Blaster, one with a Shredder. That's a fine loadout for both of them.

In general though, yeah, it's a pain that we're lacking special weapons on the physical kits compared to what we can equip in the rules. Scourges and Trueborn in particular are a nightmare to equip properly.

Yeah, we lack all weapon options and its something I've brought up a few times. Either way, if I was to build two five mans, you use the heavy weapons body as a second sybarite, as it has the hole in the back made for attaching the... whatever it is you give them, be it flag or whatever. From there I would just cut back at the shredder so that it looked more like a blaster, failing that, I'd get another one from a different kit, or buy some online.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites; what special weapons for them?   Kabalites; what special weapons for them? I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 17 2019, 19:55

If you clip the barrel off a dark lance, it looks exactly like a blaster. Thus, you get 2 blasters in every box--unless you're planning on having a lot of infantry with Dark lances...
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites; what special weapons for them?   Kabalites; what special weapons for them? I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 17 2019, 20:46

@Grimoire wrote:
Agree about Leadership. However I would beg to differ about the "free" Sybarite. As an example, how would *you* build two 5 man squads from a single box of Warriors ?

I assume what you're really asking here is where the extra Sybarite comes from.

Well, bear in mind that these Warriors are going to need transports. And our transport kits come with extra models that can easily be re-purposed as Sybarites (or even HQs).

e.g.
Spoiler:
 

So to answer your question, I'd most likely build a 10-man squad from the Kabalite box (just in case they actually become good down the line  Wink ). And then I'd use the spare bits from the Venom or Raider kits to build a second Syberite. That way I can run my squads either way.

Another alternative would be to build 2 Syberites from the kit, but have one be less impressive and armed only with a splinter rifle. If you're using a 5-man squad, he's the Syberite. if you're using a 10-man squad, he can substitute for a regular Kabalite. Simple.  Smile


@Grimoire wrote:

Lets assume ( always dangerous ) that you equip your 5 man squads with Blasters, just to keep this on topic. Where does the extra Blaster come from ? You have to source one. Seldom free.

Three possibilities:

1) Use spare Blasters from other kits. Probably won't always be an option but definitely something to keep in mind. e.g. if you've equipped your Scourges with Haywire, then you'll have a spare Blaster per Scourge squad. Probably won't be enough but can help alleviate demand somewhat.

2) As already suggested, cutting the barrel off a Dark Lance leaves you with what looks for all the world like a slightly larger Blaster.

3) A final option is to convert a Shredder using the barrel from the Blast Pistol. http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=70639

Since you're using 2 Blasters, you don't need the Shredder. And with the Blast Pistol being overpriced piddle, you won't be needing that either. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites; what special weapons for them?   Kabalites; what special weapons for them? I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 17 2019, 22:28

I usually don't buy special weapon for my kabalites. 5 X splinter riffle and that's it. I keep my special weapons for unit that can survive. Plus, nobody shoot my kabalites, since they are worthless. Then, late game, I still have several objective secured unit that can steal objectives.
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites; what special weapons for them?   Kabalites; what special weapons for them? I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 18 2019, 01:29

@dumpeal wrote:
I usually don't buy special weapon for my kabalites. 5 X splinter riffle and that's it. I keep my special weapons for unit that can survive. Plus, nobody shoot my kabalites, since they are worthless. Then, late game, I still have several objective secured unit that can steal objectives.

That's weird. I don't have people target my kabalites with blasters in venoms all that often. I usually run 3 venoms and I rarely lose more than 1. There's a lot more scary stuff people have to worry about usually, that a single blaster isn't worth their attention.

Maybe it's just a list design/play style thing...
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites; what special weapons for them?   Kabalites; what special weapons for them? I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 18 2019, 04:12

@dumpeal wrote:
I usually don't buy special weapon for my kabalites. 5 X splinter riffle and that's it. I keep my special weapons for unit that can survive. Plus, nobody shoot my kabalites, since they are worthless. Then, late game, I still have several objective secured unit that can steal objectives.

I like doing this in smaller games; 5 Kabalites and a Venom with no upgrades is only 95 pts, which is cheap enough to help you really squeeze a lot into the rest of your list.

My last 900pt doubles list was a Black Heart Spearhead of 3 Venoms with 5 Kabalites supporting 3 Ravagers, a Reaper and the classic Aurachon. I paired up with Tau and the list performed very, very well.

But generally speaking, and definitely for any game that's at least 1500 pts, I really want a Blaster in each of my Venoms.



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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites; what special weapons for them?   Kabalites; what special weapons for them? I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 18 2019, 15:22

@sekac wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
I usually don't buy special weapon for my kabalites. 5 X splinter riffle and that's it. I keep my special weapons for unit that can survive. Plus, nobody shoot my kabalites, since they are worthless. Then, late game, I still have several objective secured unit that can steal objectives.

That's weird. I don't have people target my kabalites with blasters in venoms all that often. I usually run 3 venoms and I rarely lose more than 1. There's a lot more scary stuff people have to worry about usually, that a single blaster isn't worth their attention.

Maybe it's just a list design/play style thing...

I use either 3 kabs units in 3 raiders or 4 kabs in 2 raiders. I don't like venoms.
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites; what special weapons for them?   Kabalites; what special weapons for them? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2019, 13:26

For me, it depends a lot about the list itself.
.5-5-5 Kabals for objectives/screening etc, they don't need any gun. 90 points, super useful, great when you need some extra CPs (ie. a Battalion).
Shredder/blaster: it depends about how much I need antitank/antiinfantry. Honestly I like both of them, not really a champ here.

All the three ways are good, usually I bult the core of the list at first, then I think.about Kabal's weapons.
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