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 Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts?

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DT3055
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DT3055

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PostSubject: Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts?   Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts? I_icon_minitimeFri May 17 2019, 13:55

Played a competitive match vs deathguard player and had three FW deredeo dreads with butcher cannons, 8 shots str 8 autocanons. The real kicker was they hit on 2s natually AND have an ability to get+1 to hit and supported by an HQ for the reroll 1s aura. My plan at deployment was to try and tie them up with RG jetbikes but they have a 3d3 Str 6 missilie launcher that doesn't need LOS so the hiding bikes were wiped turn 1. Couldnt really shoot at them as dark lances bounced off ther 5++ 5+++ disgustingly resilient. Anyone gone up against them and have any good advice these guys seem talor made for us coming in at alittle less than 200pts?
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DT3055
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PostSubject: Re: Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts?   Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts? I_icon_minitimeFri May 17 2019, 14:04

My list was a Flayed skull battalion with 3 RWJ and a dissie ravager, a PoF battlion with 9 Grotesques and a RG outrider with 2 bikes and haywire scourges.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts?   Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts? I_icon_minitimeFri May 17 2019, 14:48

Are Death Guard actually able to take Deredeo Dreads? As far as I can tell, there is no specific Death Guard Deredeo datasheet, and the datasheet that does exist doesn't have Disgustingly Resilient. Unless there is an exception listed in the FW Index, I'm not sure that they can actually be taken as part of a Death Guard army. I don't think that the <LEGION> keyword is sufficient for inclusion in a DG detachment, because DG have their own army list/codex.
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DT3055
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PostSubject: Re: Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts?   Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts? I_icon_minitimeFri May 17 2019, 16:27

Well thats good to know. They may have been in another detachtment as he had 3 detachments but I know for sure he took his 5+++ on them the few times I managed to get through his invulns. Maybe a relic/warlord trait?
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Serpent Fly
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PostSubject: Re: Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts?   Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts? I_icon_minitimeSat May 18 2019, 12:16

To help your Reavers have you tried Painbringer and hyperstim backlash on Turn 1. You have to remember to drop it at the start of the battle round, but it will make them Toughness 6 for the whole of your turn and theirs. Against the right opponents who have either alot of S3 S5 or S6 weapons it makes the reavers much more durable. Sure you get mortal wounds at the end of the round but by then some of your reavers have already died so you roll less dice for that anyway. Plus if they did their job it's really not too bad. I've had success using this with squads of 9 reavers with grav talons. I would say it's probably a waste on smaller units.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts?   Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts? I_icon_minitimeSat May 18 2019, 15:07

@krayd wrote:
Are Death Guard actually able to take Deredeo Dreads? As far as I can tell, there is no specific Death Guard Deredeo datasheet, and the datasheet that does exist doesn't have Disgustingly Resilient. Unless there is an exception listed in the FW Index, I'm not sure that they can actually be taken as part of a Death Guard army. I don't think that the <LEGION> keyword is sufficient for inclusion in a DG detachment, because DG have their own army list/codex.

It's possible there's a FW errata that says they can take them, but they absolutely do not get disgustingly resilient. This DG player is probably just assuming because he's DG all his FW options get that, when they don't. Makes it easier to take them out for sure.

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts?   Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts? I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2019, 02:29

Yeah, not even their base regular Helbrutes get DR so there's no way he'll get 5+++ on FW ones unless FW rules specifically state it on their card - and Deredeos definitely don't get that.

It's actually their Inexorable Advance rule that makes DG Deredeos nasty, as they ignore shooting penalties after moving.

Yeah, not going to lie, 3 of them with their Greater Havoc Launchers is rough for us to handle, I don't think anything we have can efficiently deal with them. Best you can hope for is something like a Solitaire or Quicken'd jetbike unit flying into them early to tie them up but that's hardly ideal.

There's a lot of matchups with Dark Eldar where you basically have to get Turn 1 or you lose, this one seems like one of them.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts?   Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts? I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2019, 06:48

@hydranixx wrote:
Yeah, not even their base regular Helbrutes get DR so there's no way he'll get 5+++ on FW ones unless FW rules specifically state it on their card - and Deredeos definitely don't get that.

It's actually their Inexorable Advance rule that makes DG Deredeos nasty, as they ignore shooting penalties after moving.

Yeah, not going to lie, 3 of them with their Greater Havoc Launchers is rough for us to handle, I don't think anything we have can efficiently deal with them. Best you can hope for is something like a Solitaire or Quicken'd jetbike unit flying into them early to tie them up but that's hardly ideal.

There's a lot of matchups with Dark Eldar where you basically have to get Turn 1 or you lose, this one seems like one of them.

Not against this, We dont need to get turn 1. Their rules is they are force to NOT move, we can make sure they move every turn OR give them terrible options to shoot at, like a Venom. Also, it's 1 gun that is 8 Shots, meaning they can not split fire

Even with 2+ to hit after modifiers and re-roll 1's, they only JUST kill 1 venom, if you force them to move they only have a 50/50 chance to kill a venom, if you are Black Heart they will not kill 1 venom if you make 1 save (2 with they dont move). So if you think of it that way, they will kill 2 venoms a turn.

You always give them something to kill and make it impossible to kill what you want to keep alive, then just kill them yourself.

Something else to think about, with the Grenade Launcher they are 200pts (198pts but close enough), he is spending 600pts on 3 Dreadnoughts to kill 2-3 units a turn, you hope its only 65pt units, if you can kill 1 in turn 1 and hurt another you are good.


But you Ravagers and units with Anti-tank in spots he cant shoot, OR ruins his positioning, then bait them.

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts?   Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts? I_icon_minitimeThu May 23 2019, 00:12

@amishprn86 wrote:


Not against this, We dont need to get turn 1. Their rules is they are force to NOT move, we can make sure they move every turn OR give them terrible options to shoot at, like a Venom. Also, it's 1 gun that is 8 Shots, meaning they can not split fire

Even with 2+ to hit after modifiers and re-roll 1's, they only JUST kill 1 venom, if you force them to move they only have a 50/50 chance to kill a venom, if you are Black Heart they will not kill 1 venom if you make 1 save (2 with they dont move). So if you think of it that way, they will kill 2 venoms a turn.

You always give them something to kill and make it impossible to kill what you want to keep alive, then just kill them yourself.

Something else to think about, with the Grenade Launcher they are 200pts (198pts but close enough), he is spending 600pts on 3 Dreadnoughts to kill 2-3 units a turn, you hope its only 65pt units, if you can kill 1 in turn 1 and hurt another you are good.


But you Ravagers and units with Anti-tank in spots he cant shoot, OR ruins his positioning, then bait them.

I think you're vastly underestimating your opponent if you think they're just going to aim at a single Venom with each Deredeo all game. Deredeos do have their special rule where they may opt to stand still to get +1 to hit units with Fly, but they don't have to use this rule, as their BS2+ plus a nearby Lord / Daemon Prince is still perfectly accurate without it, and they keep BS2+ on their reasonably 7" move since they're DG.

Assuming you go second, and assuming you can hide your Ravagers and other anti tank firepower turn 1, you still have to deal with 9D3 Strength 6 AP-1 indirect fire shots from their Havoc Launchers, plus anything else their list has. The Havoc Launchers alone will probably bracket or kill a Ravager.

Assume you go first, and your Ravagers move out turn 1 to shoot, you might even kill one of the Deredeos, but your Ravagers are going to be shot apart by Butcher Cannons next turn - unless the board is absolutely swamped with sky rise building terrain. If there's tonnes of LOS blocking terrain, I think we stand a chance.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts?   Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts? I_icon_minitimeThu May 23 2019, 00:30

@hydranixx wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:


Not against this, We dont need to get turn 1. Their rules is they are force to NOT move, we can make sure they move every turn OR give them terrible options to shoot at, like a Venom. Also, it's 1 gun that is 8 Shots, meaning they can not split fire

Even with 2+ to hit after modifiers and re-roll 1's, they only JUST kill 1 venom, if you force them to move they only have a 50/50 chance to kill a venom, if you are Black Heart they will not kill 1 venom if you make 1 save (2 with they dont move). So if you think of it that way, they will kill 2 venoms a turn.

You always give them something to kill and make it impossible to kill what you want to keep alive, then just kill them yourself.

Something else to think about, with the Grenade Launcher they are 200pts (198pts but close enough), he is spending 600pts on 3 Dreadnoughts to kill 2-3 units a turn, you hope its only 65pt units, if you can kill 1 in turn 1 and hurt another you are good.


But you Ravagers and units with Anti-tank in spots he cant shoot, OR ruins his positioning, then bait them.

I think you're vastly underestimating your opponent if you think they're just going to aim at a single Venom with each Deredeo all game. Deredeos do have their special rule where they may opt to stand still to get +1 to hit units with Fly, but they don't have to use this rule, as their BS2+ plus a nearby Lord / Daemon Prince is still perfectly accurate without it, and they keep BS2+ on their reasonably 7" move since they're DG.  

Assuming you go second, and assuming you can hide your Ravagers and other anti tank firepower turn 1, you still have to deal with 9D3 Strength 6 AP-1 indirect fire shots from their Havoc Launchers, plus anything else their list has. The Havoc Launchers alone will probably bracket or kill a Ravager.

Assume you go first, and your Ravagers move out turn 1 to shoot, you might even kill one of the Deredeos, but your Ravagers are going to be shot apart by Butcher Cannons next turn - unless the board is absolutely swamped with sky rise building terrain. If there's tonnes of LOS blocking terrain, I think we stand a chance.

It can only shoot at 1 unit a turn with its Str 8, if they are moving to shoot your Ravagers they are 2+ to hit, force a -1 to get a 3+, they will not kill a Ravager, 8 shots 3+ re-roll 1's with 3+ to wound and a 5++, thats actually only 2.75 unsaved wounds, thats 4-6 damage, lets say 6 damage, that means its still alive with 4 wounds forcing another one to shoot if its other 3D3 does the job, (tho 6 shots at 3+/rr1's and 4+ to wound dont kill it) it should be left with 2-3 wounds.

BUT lets say it didnt move and it is 2+/rr1's

8 shots, 7.78 hits, 5.19 wounds, 3.48 unsaved wounds, 6-8 damage, still not enough to kill it, forcing the other gun to shoot, which is 1.94 (2) damage on average. Meaning there is a 50/50 chance not to die (OH its like i said that already). If you are Black heart they most likely wont kill even 1, sure some bolters or other guns will finish it up, that buts other guns not shooting other things.

If you are playing on a table that you cant hide 3 Ravagers then thats a different problem then you just DS them.

They will shoot and kill something, make sure its wasted and it over kills or it completely under kills, the more damage is wasted the better. Just take the hits and make sure you kill then.


Alternatively, just take 6 Skyweavers.

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PostSubject: Re: Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts?   Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts? I_icon_minitimeThu May 30 2019, 07:39

The problem is that he doesn't really need to kill Ravagers/Razorwings. 1 by 1, he will pass and you will have all your garage with like 2-3 wounds per model. So you're going to hit at BS5+, good luck.
A good Chaos player will never waste a second Deredeo to finish a wounded boat.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts?   Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts? I_icon_minitimeThu May 30 2019, 16:55

Not familiar with this model, but flying three venoms up close and charging with one always works for me against most dreadnaughts. It has been my experience shooty dreadnaughts suck in HTH. HTH dreadnaughts die easily from shooting.
So, he can't shoot if he backs out of or is in HTH.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts?   Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts? I_icon_minitimeThu May 30 2019, 19:15

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Not familiar with this model, but flying three venoms up close and charging with one always works for me against most dreadnaughts. It has been my experience shooty dreadnaughts suck in HTH.  HTH dreadnaughts die easily from shooting.
So, he can't shoot if he backs out of or is in HTH.

He was talking about them killing your Ravagers turn 1, hence why i also said you can DS your Ravagers and let them shoot 1-3out of your 7-Venoms and just prep for a strong turn 2.

Mathhammer works both ways, he is trying to show they are to strong and counters us, but without tactics and gun lines, EVERYTHING OUT SHOOTS US. Thats why the game isnt a gunline based game and has 100's of stratagems, terrain, DSing, etc..

If we are going by pure gunline shooting math and ignore everything else, then just play Tau.

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PostSubject: Re: Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts?   Any way for us to beat deredeo dreadnoughts? I_icon_minitime

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