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Braden Campbell
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Braden Campbell

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PostSubject: What makes this work...?   What makes this work...? I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2019, 18:12

The following list appeared in an article dated may 15, 2019. It was listed as "unbeatable." I'm wondering what makes it so given it's total lack of dark lances...
_______________________________
The Unbeatable List: This is the Anonymized, abridged army list that won the largest event in the past week we have data for provided by Best Coast Pairings:

Battalion – Aeldari Drukhari – Kabal of the Flayed Skull
HQ
Archon, Blast Pistol, Famed Savagery, Huskblade, The Obsidian Veil, Warlord
Archon, Huskblade, Splinter Pistol

Troops
Kabalite Warriors – 4 x Kabalite Warriors, Blaster, Sybarite w/Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warriors – 9 x Kabalite Warriors, 2 x Blaster, Splinter Cannon, Sybarite w/Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warriors – 9 x Kabalite Warriors, 2 x Blaster, Splinter Cannon, Sybarite w/Splinter Rifle Kabalite Warriors – 9 x Kabalite Warriors, 2 x Blaster, Splinter Cannon, Sybarite w/Splinter Rifle

Heavy Support
Ravager, 3 x Disintegrator Cannon
Ravager, 3 x Disintegrator Cannon
Flyer Razorwing Jetfighter, Twin Splinter Rifle, 2 x Disintegrator Cannon

Dedicated Transport
Raider, Disintegrator Cannon, Splinter Racks
Raider, Disintegrator Cannon, Splinter Racks
Raider, Disintegrator Cannon, Splinter Racks
Venom, 2x Splinter Cannon

Auxiliary Support Detachment
– Aeldari – Harlequins – The Soaring Spite: Serpent’s Blood
Fast Attack Skyweavers x 5, 4x Zephyrglaive, Star Bolas

Total: 1500 Points

Source: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/05/40k-top-list-of-the-week-may-15th-drukhari-deathstrike.html
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Burnage
Wych
Burnage

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PostSubject: Re: What makes this work...?   What makes this work...? I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2019, 19:38

You don't need Dark Lances currently, Disintegrator Cannons provide equivalent or better damage against most targets. Haywire (which I'm assuming that Skyweavers were armed with?) is also better than both against some targets.

Dunno if it really looks like there's much of a secret sauce to this list, it's just taking advantage of how efficient most Kabal units are. The aux support is kind of interesting as it removes the need for an expensive Harlequin tax to fill out standard detachments, but you also lose stratagem access for them. Flayed Skull combined with Splinter Cannons and Splinter Racks is also slightly unusual but is going to have some synergy to it.
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dumpeal
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dumpeal

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PostSubject: Re: What makes this work...?   What makes this work...? I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2019, 20:05

@Burnage wrote:
You don't need Dark Lances currently, Disintegrator Cannons provide equivalent or better damage against most targets. Haywire (which I'm assuming that Skyweavers were armed with?) is also better than both against some targets.

Dunno if it really looks like there's much of a secret sauce to this list, it's just taking advantage of how efficient most Kabal units are. The aux support is kind of interesting as it removes the need for an expensive Harlequin tax to fill out standard detachments, but you also lose stratagem access for them. Flayed Skull combined with Splinter Cannons and Splinter Racks is also slightly unusual but is going to have some synergy to it.

I thought the splinter racks didn't works with splinter cannons?
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Burnage
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Burnage

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PostSubject: Re: What makes this work...?   What makes this work...? I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2019, 20:09

@dumpeal wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
You don't need Dark Lances currently, Disintegrator Cannons provide equivalent or better damage against most targets. Haywire (which I'm assuming that Skyweavers were armed with?) is also better than both against some targets.

Dunno if it really looks like there's much of a secret sauce to this list, it's just taking advantage of how efficient most Kabal units are. The aux support is kind of interesting as it removes the need for an expensive Harlequin tax to fill out standard detachments, but you also lose stratagem access for them. Flayed Skull combined with Splinter Cannons and Splinter Racks is also slightly unusual but is going to have some synergy to it.

I thought the splinter racks didn't works with splinter cannons?

They don't, so it's not a perfect synergy. But Flayed Skull does make both Cannons and Racks better.
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Archon_91
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Archon_91

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PostSubject: Re: What makes this work...?   What makes this work...? I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2019, 20:31

I think this list would have been considerably more strange if it had shredders instead of blasters, as it stands with current Dark Eldar Blasters are better than dark lances, and dissintegrator cannons have the most utility as there isn't really a bad target to shoot them at, sure there are better targets than others but nothing you absolutely wouldn't shoot at with them, and a lot of it, I think, also depended on the player
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amishprn86
Dracon
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PostSubject: Re: What makes this work...?   What makes this work...? I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2019, 20:36

Copy and paste what i said on the article

Quote :
Its 1500pts, the lower the points the more powerful DE is, they are magic at around 1250-1500pts. Able to keep most of their same units and mass fire power without the worry of 3 Knights, or 4 CWE flyers, or even Tau Suits. Where 500pts is a lot to some armies, its just redundancies for DE.

Tho honestly i wouldnt take Splinter racks or Splinter cannons, thats a waste of 60pts, you could take out the 2nd SC from the venom and had another Venom, this makes each raider less important to be shot at and another unit on the table. Splinter Racks dont really add much, it doesnt even effect Splinter cannons, so really you are spending 10pts for 1 extra hit, when Kabals are 6pts, just take 5 kabals over 3 racks and triple the shots right away while getting more bodies. Being Flawed Skull he also didnt need Cannons, for the 30pts more thats an addition 5 more kabals, now you are up to 10 kabals more (10-20 shots more with 10 more bodies opposed to 6-12 extra shots and less bodies)

He for sure could have done a better list, but over all +3" movement, ignore cover, dedicated Anti-tank


As for what you are asking? You dont need Dark Lances at all, with HWC's and Blasters you have all the anti-tank you'll every need and MC as well via Poison and Blasters.

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Braden Campbell
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Braden Campbell

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PostSubject: Re: What makes this work...?   What makes this work...? I_icon_minitimeThu May 16 2019, 00:11

Very interesting...

I guess I'm still stuck in an old skool mentality that dissies are for killing mens... and pretty ineffective against anything else.
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amishprn86
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amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: What makes this work...?   What makes this work...? I_icon_minitimeThu May 16 2019, 01:52

@Braden Campbell wrote:
Very interesting...

I guess I'm still stuck in an old skool mentality that dissies are for killing mens... and pretty ineffective against anything else.

Well, with the new damage chart, and flat multi damage 3 shots wounding on 5+ but doing flat 2D each is better than 1 shot at 1D6 wounding on 3/4+ (especially wounding on 4+) even more so when you can re-roll 1's, its just simple math. Honestly a DL needs to go down 5pts and a Dis cannon needs to go up 5pts.

Loot at it via 10 of each, vs T7 4+

10 Lances re-roll 1's, 3+ to hit = 7.75 hits (6.68 hits before re-rolls, 1.5 hits via re-roll)
10 Dis (30 shots) re-roll 1's, 3+ to hit = 23.3 hits

So now you can see Dis hits 3x the amount (well yeah its 3x the shots)

Ignoring saves for a minute (will get to that later) 7.75 hits wound on either 3+ or 4+
3+ = 5.16 wounds = 18.15 damage (re-roll 1's 21.17)
4+ = 3.87 wounds = 13.5 damage (re-roll 1's 15.88)

Dis Cannons 23.3 hits will need 5+ almost always vs large vehicles
5+ to wound = 7.7 = 15.4 damage (re-roll 1's 18.10)

But what about invuls?

x10 guns, re-roll 1's to hit and wound
DL vs T7, 3+/5++ = 14.15
DL vs T8, 3+/5++ = 10.56
DC vs T7, 3+/5++ = 12.1
DC vs T8, 3+/5++ = 12.1

So its better vs T8, weaker vs T7 with or without invuls, now when you think that its 5pts cheaper, you are fighting Knights, and you are taking 9-15 of them (thats 45-135pts saved) you have room to fit more units in and you dont care about random D6 rolls.

Finally you are better at infantry and T5 vehicles, b.c Dis cannons are way better at T5 than Lances, something like 4 wounds more on average if i remember.


Over all, its better vs Knights, its cheaper, its better vs Infantry, its still viable vs all vehicles, and better vs T5 as well.

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Axmar
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Axmar

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PostSubject: Re: What makes this work...?   What makes this work...? I_icon_minitimeThu May 16 2019, 12:34

I couldn't agree more, I have 15 disintegrator cannons in my 2K list, and I would never pay for lances ! The disintegrators will work against genestealers, orks, bikes, space marines and astra militarum vehicles ..

The real issue is Imperial Knights, and soon Chaos Knights. I've considered taking skyweavers (6 of them). As said previously, the auxiliary detachment prevents the use of stratagems which is a huge issue, it means no 3+ invulnerable save no -2 to hit on the harlequin bikes ...

The cheaper detachments would be :
- Patrol with a troupe master, 5 troupes, 6 bikes
- Outrider with a troupe master, 3*2 bikes

Unfortunately the first requires a useless harlequin troupe (I use grotesques, so no need to have 5 squishy guys) , and the second one splits the bikes, so again the stratagems won't be effective at all.

Knowing that, I'm considering bringing 15 scourges with 12 haywire blasters. The average impact is roughly the same as 6 haywire cannons, though it is much more stable (12 D3 vs. 6 D6.)

The issue is, the scourges don't have any -1 to hit, and no 4+ invul. They can natively deep strike, so I think I could run 1 unit hidden in my deployment zone, and 2 in deepstrike. They can be protected with the -1 to hit stratagem, or +1 cover save, or even fire and fade, but that's a lot of CP for 5 squishy guys


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Gelmir
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Gelmir

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PostSubject: Re: What makes this work...?   What makes this work...? I_icon_minitimeThu May 16 2019, 15:19

Best way to use Scourges is simply drop them in cover. The Deep Strike helps with that, and it gets you the same -1 to hit, just in another way than the bikes.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: What makes this work...?   What makes this work...? I_icon_minitimeThu May 16 2019, 17:45

@Axmar wrote:
I couldn't agree more, I have 15 disintegrator cannons in my 2K list, and I would never pay for lances ! The disintegrators will work against genestealers, orks, bikes, space marines and astra militarum vehicles ..

The real issue is Imperial Knights, and soon Chaos Knights. I've considered taking skyweavers (6 of them). As said previously, the auxiliary detachment prevents the use of stratagems which is a huge issue, it means no 3+ invulnerable save no -2 to hit on the harlequin bikes ...

The cheaper detachments would be :
- Patrol with a troupe master, 5 troupes, 6 bikes
- Outrider with a troupe master, 3*2 bikes

Unfortunately the first requires a useless harlequin troupe (I use grotesques, so no need to have 5 squishy guys) , and the second one splits the bikes, so again the stratagems won't be effective at all.

Knowing that, I'm considering bringing 15 scourges with 12 haywire blasters. The average impact is roughly the same as 6 haywire cannons, though it is much more stable (12 D3 vs. 6 D6.)

The issue is, the scourges don't have any -1 to hit, and no 4+ invul. They can natively deep strike, so I think I could run 1 unit hidden in my deployment zone, and 2 in deepstrike. They can be protected with the -1 to hit stratagem, or +1 cover save, or even fire and fade, but that's a lot of CP for 5 squishy guys


Almost all my lists has a Vanguard Quins detachment, it used to Ynnari, not its Dreaming Shadow.

TM for cheap (but i like Shadowseer)
DJ
DJ
Solitaire
6 Bikes

I get 3 of my favorite quin units and they all are very good, its 619pts, but if you go TM it'll be 578pts, sounds like a lot but each of them are worth the units, i take Battalion Kabal and either Bat wych or Bat Coven, Wych i spam Venoms and take 2 Flyers, Coven i take Talos and Grots.


But if you want a Brigade of anytype, you could take 3 Scourge units for HWB's, they are super cheap, remember Skyweavers are 270-306 points (depending if you take melee weapons) and Scourges are 92pts, so they are about the same cost. Scourges gets DS protection for free and 12D3 shots vs 6D6 (21 vs 24 hits) Scourges in theory hit more often with the 12 of them shooting.

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Archon_91
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Archon_91

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PostSubject: Re: What makes this work...?   What makes this work...? I_icon_minitimeThu May 16 2019, 20:24

I need to buy another 6 talos for what I have planned for them as a fun thing, it'll be expensive (both money and points wise) but just have 9 talos all equiped with twin haywire blasters roaming around the field would be hilarious. I find having blasters and haywire in a list is really all the anti tank we need anymore ... I can't really think of anything a dark lance should shoot at ...
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Braden Campbell
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Braden Campbell

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PostSubject: Re: What makes this work...?   What makes this work...? I_icon_minitimeFri May 17 2019, 14:24

I'm going to need more 3rd edition disintegrators, then...
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: What makes this work...?   What makes this work...? I_icon_minitimeFri May 17 2019, 14:38

Honestly, 3rd edition Disintegrators looked close enough to Dark Lances that I can't imagine that it'd be a big deal if you just treated them as counts-as.
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