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 Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 05:57

So I was thinking that blending Cults and Kabal units into a Brigade alleviates a lot of the usual problems our codex has with building brigades:

HQ:
Not being forced to buy a 2nd or 3rd Archon/Succubus is nice. You can easily go Archon/Succubus/Ynnari character (most likely Yvraine?). The fact that they can share their auras with all units, not just their specific Kabal or Cult is nice too - an Archon with Hungering Blade being protected by a big cohort of Wyches seems viable. Alternatively a tarpitting Wych HQ keeping enemies from touching your Kabalites? Not sure, but it beats running 3 copies of the same model with the same aura for no extra gain.

Troops:
Helpful to find a mix of Wyches and Kabalites that works for your list instead of being forced to take 6 of either. Lack of Wych obsession hurts, but the +1 to hit and/or hitting first in prolonged combat (perfect for tarpitting Wyches) is alright, and the support they get from strats and spells is great.

Elites:
Probably the least affected role as we have a lot of mercenaries here. Incubi have to pay extra CP just to unlock regular Ynnari status, which evokes sadface. Mandrakes would be ok but you're not allowed to bring them - they'd miss abusing Doom so much maybe we wouldn't want them in our list anyway. The real deal is Beastmasters - cheap as chips, even with the compulsory birds. But I can't recall if they have a rule similar to Court Of The Archon where they are not allowed to use up Elite slots?

Fast Attack:
Reavers are relatively cheap source of filling Fast Attack, and with Ynnari Strat they can advance and charge to tie things down, which is sweet. No more being forced to take Scourges, though you can still sneak em in if you want. I would probably opt for a few cheap flocks of birds and 3 units of 3-4 Reavers to either get turn one wraps or to take objectives.

Heavy Support:
A little bit lackluster, as we have no cheap options, and all of our available Heavy Support options would all prefer to benefit from Obsessions rather than Ynnari bonuses. Still, Ravagers are all round good choices, and if the benefits of bringing a Ynnari brigade makes the rest of the list worth considering, maybe it's worth sacrificing the Obsessions.

So, reckon there's any play for this, or is it a lost cause?

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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 06:18

Seems like a solid choice.

Reapers are a good pick for the Heavy Support slot, I feel like.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 07:18

Beasts can't count for Fast Attack due to a Matched Play restrictions in codex :-( I was really excited, but then went back and read it.

I think a brigade could work, but I don't know if it would be bringing tools or have too many taxes.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 10:14

It's considerably better than a native Brigade but it's not great and winds up being very expensive.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 11:40

So, just to lay this out a little, I did some working out.

his is what I think can be made with a straight Kabalite Brigade, at 2000pts:




HQ - Archon
HQ - Archon
HQ - Archon
TROOPS - 5 Kabalite Warriors; 1x Blaster
TROOPS - 5 Kabalite Warriors; 1x Blaster
TROOPS - 5 Kabalite Warriors; 1x Blaster
TROOPS - 5 Kabalite Warriors; 1x Blaster
TROOPS - 5 Kabalite Warriors; 1x Blaster
TROOPS - 5 Kabalite Warriors; 1x Blaster
ELITES - 5 Mandrakes
ELITES - 5 Mandrakes
ELITES - 5 Mandrakes
FAST ATTACK - 5 Scourge; 4x Blaster
FAST ATTACK - 5 Scourge
FAST ATTACK - 5 Scourge
HEAVY SUPPORT - Ravager
HEAVY SUPPORT - Ravager
HEAVY SUPPORT - Ravager
Dedicated Transport - Venom; Extra Cannon
Dedicated Transport - Venom; Extra Cannon
Dedicated Transport - Venom; Extra Cannon
Dedicated Transport - Venom; Extra Cannon
Dedicated Transport - Venom; Extra Cannon
Dedicated Transport - Raider; Splinter Racks
Dedicated Transport - Raider; Splinter Racks




This pushes right to the limit, filling every MINIMUM unit requirement for the Detachment (allowing for Transports for most units too), and coming in at 1992pts.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 16:40

@Burnage wrote:
It's considerably better than a native Brigade

Is it though?

On the plus side, you've got:
- Extra HQ choices (inc. psychic support)
- Can mix Kabal and Wych units
- Ynnari army bonuses

Okay. First off, if I was looking to improve my HQs, I wouldn't look to Ynnari. The Visarch costs twice what he's worth, Yncarne is still priced as though he could move/fight twice. Yvraine is probably the best of the three but she's only got one power that has any synergy with our army (Unbind Souls). It's a good power for sure but you're paying through the nose for it.

However, for the sake of argument, let's just count this as a decent bonus.

Next is the ability to mix Kabal and Cult units. The thing is, I don't find this useful because there's so little synergy between Kabal and Cult. Yes, the Archon and Succubi can use their auras interchangeably. Okay. But this just makes the Succubus pointless as her aura is outright worse than that of the Archon (and it's not like his is winning any awards), and she's unable to access the artefacts that might actually make her worthwhile in melee. Furthermore, it doesn't negate the problems that continue to plague our HQs. Regardless of whether you pick a Succubus or Archon, they still won't be able to keep up with Reavers.

That said, I'll admit that having the option of Wyches and Reavers is more useful (especially with Unbind Souls).

However, whilst Reavers may give you a alternate FA option, going Ynnari also stripes you of what is arguably the best non-Coven Elite option - Mandrakes. Without Reavers you still had the option of Haywire Scourges (which are pretty decent), but without Mandrakes you really don't have any good Elite options. Trueborn are overcosted, Incubi are bad (and both will need transports, which will significantly increase the cost of the Brigade), Beastmasters are cheap but don't bring a whole lot (beasts don't benefit from Strength from Death and you can't even use them to fill slots), and the less said about Bloodbrides the better.

In terms of artefacts and such, there are some decent options for an Archon but almost nothing that helps a Succubus. Personally, I don't think they're much more useful for Eldar or Harlequins than for us. For example, there are 2 different options that give a model 5+ FNP. This is great for models like Farseers and Troupe Masters (which have a 4++ and no FNP), but less good for Archons (which already have FNP, if only 6++, and if they're taking that save at all then they're usually screwed anyway). They're not bad per se. The Hungering Blade is still very good and Lord of Rebirth could potentially make failing an Archon's Shadowfield save less of a death-sentence.

Back from the Brink can potentially keep your warlord alive but there's the usual issue that DE HQs aren't really worth protecting.

However, the biggest issue for me by far is the Ynnari army bonus. It is absolutely abysmal by every possible measure. Always Strike First is niche beyond measure and as for the +1 to hit:
- It's useless for every character (including the Ynnari ones in yet another example of fantastic design Rolling Eyes ).
- It's useless for the Kabalites (who don't want to be anywhere near combat).
- It's useless for the Ravagers (which don't want to be anywhere near combat).
- It's useless for the transports (which usually don't want to be anywhere near combat, and if they do charge it won't be to try and cause damage).
- It's useless for Incubi, Wyches and Reavers from turn 3 onwards.

Bear in mind that it's competing with some really great army bonuses. A pure-Kabal Brigade could be giving every vehicle rerolls to hit, Ignores Cover and +3 movement. It could be giving every unit +6" of range on their non-pistol weapons. It could be giving every vehicle a 6+++ and every unit +1 to the FNP count.

Ynnari have some nice bonuses, sure, but so much of their stuff seems tailored to give DE the least possible benefit. And using them at all requires us to sacrifice some of our best options and bonuses.

Maybe I'm in the minority here but to me a Ynnari Brigade actually looks worse than the standard one.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 17:25

I say it's better because there are uses for every slot, not because I think Ynnari are better than non-Ynnari.

You obviously need HQs and troops anyway. Beastmasters are decent (Shield of Ynnead makes Razorwing Flocks our best screening unit by far) and cheap. Reavers and Scourges are both useful. You want Ravagers anyway.

Contrast this to native Brigades, where you're forced to shove three units of Scourges into Kabals or Covens (which is fine but not really ideal) and you can't fill a Cult Brigade at all without going for Forgeworld.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 17:28

I tend to agree with Samurai. My plan is bring a Drukhari Reborn army for an upcoming tournament, but that is primarily because I want to use the models I painted back in the day. I'm not expecting a lot for table top performance.

That said, I've been looking at how to do as well as possible and I think a double battalion still makes the most sense. You get a decent chunk of CP, but don't need to take tax units.

Venoms with anti infantry weapons are still solid and relatively cheap. Wyches are still great against hordes. And Ravagers are still Ravagers. The Visarch can do well on the field, but is certainly overpriced. Yvraine is surprisingly effective in combat as well. But I don't see any synergy to say they are better than Archons and Succubi.

Still. They look cool and aren't terrible.

Would three Beastmasters do much though? It's 120 points and I struggle to think that would help. What value do you put on the extra CP?
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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 17:39

One of the Beastmasters can actually be a surprise beatstick given that you'll have CP to burn. Load it up with the Hungering Blade and they're actually pretty scary for a 40 point model.

Another Beastmaster to hang back and buff beasts units, then a third elite to do something and you're good to go.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 17:45

@Burnage wrote:
One of the Beastmasters can actually be a surprise beatstick given that you'll have CP to burn. Load it up with the Hungering Blade and they're actually pretty scary for a 40 point model.

Once again this really makes me wish they could take Warlord Traits.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 17:51

Ynnari don't seem to have as many CP to burn though. Although that said, my game this weekend I still had 4 CP on turn 4 because I was leery of misspending them.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 20:55

@Burnage wrote:
One of the Beastmasters can actually be a surprise beatstick given that you'll have CP to burn. Load it up with the Hungering Blade and they're actually pretty scary for a 40 point model.

Another Beastmaster to hang back and buff beasts units, then a third elite to do something and you're good to go.

I can't imagine any scenario where I'd give a beastmaster the hungering blade, rather than an archon or autarch.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 20:57

@krayd wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
One of the Beastmasters can actually be a surprise beatstick given that you'll have CP to burn. Load it up with the Hungering Blade and they're actually pretty scary for a 40 point model.

Another Beastmaster to hang back and buff beasts units, then a third elite to do something and you're good to go.

I can't imagine any scenario where I'd give a beastmaster the hungering blade, rather than an archon or autarch.

Perhaps, but if we're adding in Eldar characters my DE ones will be lucky if they get wargear let alone artefacts. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 21:29

I didn't even realize the Beastmasters were characters.. I wonder why the Court models aren't? Although I like having a cheap throw away body to block shots to my upfield characters.

With a Ynnari brigade that brings all three I suppose you'd have an extra relic to give to support models. But I don't think I'd pay to bring extra to give to a Beastmaster.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 23:55

So, I've been mulling over this idea some more. What about something like this:

Ynnari-DE Brigade (+12CP)
Archon (Power Sword, Blaster, Hungering Blade) - 91 Warlord (Lord of Rebirth)
Succubus (Glaive, Blast Pistol) - 60 Exalted of Ynnead (Walker of Many Paths)
Yncarne (Unbind Souls, Ancestor's Grace) - 337
5 Warriors (Blaster) - 47
5 Warriors (Blaster) - 47
5 Warriors (Blaster) - 47
5 Warriors (Blaster) - 47
5 Warriors (Blaster) - 47
5 Wyches (Shardnet and Impailer, Agoniser, Blast Pistol) - 59
Beastmaster - 36
- 3 Razorwing Flocks
Beastmaster - 36
- 3 Razorwing Flocks
Beastmaster - 36
- 3 Razorwing Flocks
3 Reavers (Blaster) - 74
3 Reavers (Blaster) - 74
3 Reavers (Blaster) - 74
Ravager (3x Disintegrator) - 125
Ravager (3x Disintegrator) - 125
Ravager (3x Disintegrator) - 125
Venom (Twin Splinter Rifle) - 65 (Warriors)
Venom (Twin Splinter Rifle) - 65 (Warriors)
Venom (Twin Splinter Rifle) - 65 (Warriors)
Venom (Twin Splinter Rifle) - 65 (Warriors)
Venom (Twin Splinter Rifle) - 65 (Warriors)
Raider w/ Disintegrator - 80 (Wyches & one or both HQs)
2000pts, 14 CPs

Probably not optimal but it's got quite a bit of firepower and includes the Yncarne as a wild-card option. Not sure it's optimal but it might at least be fun.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2019, 00:07

What you gonna spend all that CP on my dude?
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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2019, 00:38

@Gizamaluke wrote:
What you gonna spend all that CP on my dude?


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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2019, 01:35

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
So, I've been mulling over this idea some more. What about something like this:

Ynnari-DE Brigade (+12CP)
Archon (Power Sword, Blaster, Hungering Blade) - 91 Warlord (Lord of Rebirth)
Succubus (Glaive, Blast Pistol) - 60 Exalted of Ynnead (Walker of Many Paths)
Yncarne (Unbind Souls, Ancestor's Grace) - 337
5 Warriors (Blaster) - 47
5 Warriors (Blaster) - 47
5 Warriors (Blaster) - 47
5 Warriors (Blaster) - 47
5 Warriors (Blaster) - 47
5 Wyches (Shardnet and Impailer, Agoniser, Blast Pistol) - 59
Beastmaster - 36
- 3 Razorwing Flocks
Beastmaster - 36
- 3 Razorwing Flocks
Beastmaster - 36
- 3 Razorwing Flocks
3 Reavers (Blaster) - 74
3 Reavers (Blaster) - 74
3 Reavers (Blaster) - 74
Ravager (3x Disintegrator) - 125
Ravager (3x Disintegrator) - 125
Ravager (3x Disintegrator) - 125
Venom (Twin Splinter Rifle) - 65 (Warriors)
Venom (Twin Splinter Rifle) - 65 (Warriors)
Venom (Twin Splinter Rifle) - 65 (Warriors)
Venom (Twin Splinter Rifle) - 65 (Warriors)
Venom (Twin Splinter Rifle) - 65 (Warriors)
Raider w/ Disintegrator - 80 (Wyches & one or both HQs)
2000pts, 14 CPs

Probably not optimal but it's got quite a bit of firepower and includes the Yncarne as a wild-card option. Not sure it's optimal but it might at least be fun.

This is much more expensive than the type of list I thought of, but it's probably the best way to run it. However, I'd definitely try get more from the Wyches - a big draw to playing Ynnari Dark Eldar is blobs of Wyches taking advantage of striking first and Unbind Souls, so popping 20 in Deepstrike and/or big units in Raiders seems appealing.

@Gizamaluke wrote:
What you gonna spend all that CP on my dude?

Well Ynnari's version of Fire and Fade is 2CP lol, so there's that. And the 'Doom in Melee' Strat is 2CP I think. That Strat coupled with Unbind Souls could be crushing with a few blobs of Wyches.

We'll also have a Psychic Phase without Runes of the Farseer, so having plenty CP spare to reroll there is a good idea there as well.

Generally my feeling is that you can seldom have enough CP, though I do agree that it's a lot of pay for this CP - even the lightest possible Brigade would be in the realms of 1090 pts, and it's completely terrible without transports, so it kind of defeats the purpose of a cheap brigade  Sad . However, by adding a bunch of Raiders you could end up with a somewhat decent list.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2019, 10:43

@hydranixx wrote:

This is much more expensive than the type of list I thought of, but it's probably the best way to run it. However, I'd definitely try get more from the Wyches - a big draw to playing Ynnari Dark Eldar is blobs of Wyches taking advantage of striking first and Unbind Souls, so popping 20 in Deepstrike and/or big units in Raiders seems appealing.

Yeah, I'm just not a big fan of Wyches in general.


@hydranixx wrote:

Generally my feeling is that you can seldom have enough CP, though I do agree that it's a lot of pay for this CP - even the lightest possible Brigade would be in the realms of 1090 pts, and it's completely terrible without transports, so it kind of defeats the purpose of a cheap brigade  Sad . However, by adding a bunch of Raiders you could end up with a somewhat decent list.


To be honest, I'm starting to consider the opposite view regarding CPs. I'm wondering if (especially with Ynnari) I'd be better off just trying for optimal units, even if it means far fewer CPs.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2019, 22:42

Define 'optimal units' for Ynnari, for you.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2019, 23:06

@hydranixx wrote:
Define 'optimal units' for Ynnari, for you.

Are you looking for specifically DE ones?

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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2019, 23:21

Trash, you miss the best stratagems which come from being a Dark Eldar detachment and you miss out on the Covens units which are hands down the best units in the codex. It'd rather run a brigade with all 3 subfactions and no obsessions whatsoever than hobble myself with the Ynnari keyword.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeThu May 16 2019, 00:05

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Trash, you miss the best stratagems which come from being a Dark Eldar detachment and you miss out on the Covens units which are hands down the best units in the codex. It'd rather run a brigade with all 3 subfactions and no obsessions whatsoever than hobble myself with the Ynnari keyword.

And this from Ynnari's biggest fan. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeThu May 16 2019, 02:49

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@hydranixx wrote:
Define 'optimal units' for Ynnari, for you.

Are you looking for specifically DE ones?

Let's say both DE and all Aeldari - interested in your top picks across all brands of space elf.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitimeThu May 16 2019, 03:28

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Trash, you miss the best stratagems which come from being a Dark Eldar detachment and you miss out on the Covens units which are hands down the best units in the codex. It'd rather run a brigade with all 3 subfactions and no obsessions whatsoever than hobble myself with the Ynnari keyword.

And this from Ynnari's biggest fan. Wink

I did pretty well with a brigade at last year's NOVA so it's not like I'm just rambling.

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Really terrible videos about tiny plastic space elfs intended to help you get gud scrub:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcZP8WGIhte5TmCWQXsZO4A

Flawless pieces of literary perfection:
https://www.fanfiction.net/u/2805979/
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Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?   Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius? I_icon_minitime

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COMMORRAGH TACTICA

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