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Dr.Morbid
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Dr.Morbid

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PostSubject: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2019, 22:35

Hello fellow Archons,

I'd like to hear some ideas, thoughts and tipps for playing Ynnari with the WD rule update.

In my opinion, its a try to make CE better in close combat. I hardly see how the trade off from our obsessions can be benefitting in exchange for the Ynnari ones. Even though, I think, we keep our power from pain this time, if I got it right. And also with the stratagem to make Inccubi great again hit always first, it is not that spectacular.

It really feels like, ok we need to let the Druks have it, too, but it's meant for the CE and Clowns.

But please let's share your insidious schemes to use Ynnari in an Drukhari only list.

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Gizamaluke
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Gizamaluke

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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2019, 23:03

Genuinely been mulling it over and testing and I dont think there is any reason to go Ynnari as DE, especially as you can include the Yncarne/Yvraine/Visarch without losing any of your bonuses.
Gonna start play testing Harlequins too, but mathematically the hitting on 2s rerolling 1s doesnt stack up against Frozen Heart +1A and fighting twice let alone everything else you get. Losing access to things like the Starmist Raiment, Prismatic Blur, Twilight Pathways is a bit of a death sentence on Clowns too but I'm gonna do a lot of testing.
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Burnage
Wych
Burnage

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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2019, 23:46

I think it helps Wych Cults a bit, but the core problem is that (outside of weird crap like Sean Nayden's lists) Wych Cults were substantially weaker than our other factions and the Ynnari doesn't quite do enough to bring them up to par. You can make a big unit of Reavers hit pretty hard, but they'll still wind up getting shredded.
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amishprn86
Archon
amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 00:59

@Burnage wrote:
I think it helps Wych Cults a bit, but the core problem is that (outside of weird crap like Sean Nayden's lists) Wych Cults were substantially weaker than our other factions and the Ynnari doesn't quite do enough to bring them up to par. You can make a big unit of Reavers hit pretty hard, but they'll still wind up getting shredded.

Wyches work when you the ability to have 1 or 2 other units deal so much damage and are so much threat they can not be avoided, Wyches are also great anti-horde.

I can see a Wych battalion for Ynnari, 1 Archon, 1 Yvarine 1x5 and 1x20, with the option of 1x20 or 1x5 and maybe a fast attack unit. But thats about it. You'll need something else to hold a threat spot, like Talos or Grots.

Im looking at a triple Battalion

Archon, WL/Wit
Archon
Kabal
Kabal
Kabal
Ravager
Ravager
Ravager

Ynnari
Archon - Hungering Blade, WL trait (this is 2CP for these)
Yvarine
Wych 1x5, 1 net
Wych 1x5, 1 net
Wych 1x20 1,net, 2 HG

Haemon, Whip, rifle, Mask
Haemon, Whip, rifle, Helm, WL trait
Wracks x5, rifle
Wracks x5, rifle
Wracks x10, whip, rifle
Grots x7
Talos x3, hwb/chains

Its -6CP at the start but i gain back D3 and i start with 18, so 12+D3

Honestly tho, CWE and Quins are so much better with Ynnari

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Gizamaluke
Sybarite
Gizamaluke

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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 08:47

How are Harlequins better? I'm not seeing it.
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amishprn86
Archon
amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 10:20

@Gizamaluke wrote:
How are Harlequins better? I'm not seeing it.

If you are not looking to play with Troupes, then no Ynnari is NOT better, its only better for the TM and Troupes.

They dont get better to hits or re-roll to hits. A Troupe Master gives them re-roll to wounds. Wyches are better than Troupes right now b.c they get more attacks for cheaper, better to hit, re-roll to hit, and some re-roll to wounds. When you add in that a TM can now almost deal double damage, he is now worth is points.

Vs MEQ, Ynnari does 2 more wounds fully buffed over Frozen stars.

Not saying a full army is better, but a Battalion is better in Ynnari, you'll still need a Vanguard detachment for DJ, Solitaire, and Bikes.


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Gizamaluke
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Gizamaluke

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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 10:47

See I'd say troupes in particular lose out as Ynnari due to lack of Fight Twice and in the Frozen Stars example Malicious Frenzy.
Overall I'd say the couple extra wounds per fight phase you gain as you say is not a good enough trade off for losing all the flavour and dynamic play the harlequin book allows not to mention essential relics to Ignore Overwatch (seriously a melee army without it?), twilight pathways and strats such as warrior acrobats, prismatic blur, dramatic entrance.
Even If you house rule United In Death to not require all 3 eldar factions to use like my friends have, wyches still outperform Troupe. I'm happy to be proven wrong as I'd really like Ynnari to work.
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Gizamaluke
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Gizamaluke

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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 10:48

Also, you always have the not so appealing option of making your Troupe Master a Great Harlequin for rerolls. +1 To hit just doesnt stack up against +1A.
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Gizamaluke
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Gizamaluke

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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 10:51

Harlequins even get a better "Anti Slaanesh" strat. Reroll Wounds as Ynnari vs Reroll Hits and Wounds for Quins
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amishprn86
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amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 10:52

@Gizamaluke wrote:
See I'd say troupes in particular lose out as Ynnari due to lack of Fight Twice and in the Frozen Stars example Malicious Frenzy.
Overall I'd say the couple extra wounds per fight phase you gain as you say is not a good enough trade off for losing all the flavour and dynamic play the harlequin book allows  not to mention essential relics to Ignore Overwatch (seriously a melee army without it?), twilight pathways and strats such as warrior acrobats, prismatic blur, dramatic entrance.
Even If you house rule United In Death to not require all 3 eldar factions to use like my friends have, wyches still outperform Troupe. I'm happy to be proven wrong as I'd really like Ynnari to work.

Having play harlequins as my main in 8th until i got bored with them, you dont fight twice that much at all with troupes (almost never). Its at the "end" of the phase, if you didnt kill the target you WANT to stay in combat b.c its 1-2 weak guys and now you can wrap them so they cannot fall back (so you dont get shot at) or they are still strong enough to just kill you before you fight twice, why spend 3CP to fight with 1-2 Troupes or to get them shot at next turn? You only use it on Troupes if it will net you a VP.

That strat is much better on the Solitaire or Skyweavers, FS Skyweavers are good in melee, S4 with +1 to wound and fight twice is so good on them.

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Gizamaluke
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Gizamaluke

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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 10:58

That's weird since I use it every game on Troupe, if not to kill a unit then to consolidate into something that I could Ceogorachs Jest when it falls back next turn. I play Midnight Sorrow though so I use torments of the fiery pit + no price too steep combo on my solitaire rather than fight twice.
I'm still not convinced Troupe benefit enough from being Ynnari to consider taking it over a proper harlequin detachment, though the Visarch reroll 1s and the hungering blade troupe master did tempt me originally.
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amishprn86
Archon
amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 11:02

@Gizamaluke wrote:
That's weird since I use it every game on Troupe, if not to kill a unit then to consolidate into something that I could Ceogorachs Jest when it falls back next turn. I play Midnight Sorrow though so I use torments of the fiery pit + no price too steep combo on my solitaire rather than fight twice.
I'm still not convinced Troupe benefit enough from being Ynnari to consider taking it over a proper harlequin detachment, though the Visarch reroll 1s and the hungering blade troupe master did tempt me originally.

Everyone i play against makes sure you cant consolidate into another unit. Or its a unit they dont care that you do (like 10 DG terminators, or a 30man Ork Block) yeah im not consolidating into those and letting them attack me for free.

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Last edited by amishprn86 on Mon May 13 2019, 11:07; edited 1 time in total
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Gizamaluke
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Gizamaluke

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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 11:07

Then maybe in your case Ynnari Troupe that finish their job when they've killed what they've charged are better for that extra 2 wounds, but surely if you declared your charge against those boys and used fight twice to pile in, slice em up and consolidate again you would come off better.
I've not faced DG terminators so cant comment on those, my DG opponent runs poop drones, pox walkers and leviathans mostly.
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amishprn86
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amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 11:12

@Gizamaluke wrote:
Then maybe in your case Ynnari Troupe that finish their job when they've killed what they've charged are better for that extra 2 wounds, but surely if you declared your charge against those boys and used fight twice to pile in, slice em up and consolidate again you would come off better.
I've not faced DG terminators so cant comment on those, my DG opponent runs poop drones, pox walkers and leviathans mostly.

It gives more options than before, before i am not able to kill 20 Orks, now i can. Fight Twice vs a 30 block also isnt good, you'll kill 15 of them, then they get to swing and kill you before you can swing twice.

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Gizamaluke
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Gizamaluke

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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 11:23

Oh no I dont mean you use fight twice to fight the same target twice. You soften a target (30 boys A) til you can nesr enough guarantee the squad wipe with your troupe (let's say fully buffed up frozen stars who would kill 15ish on average) but you've charged another unit (30 Ork Boyz B )behind, you do not consolidate fully into them (remain over an inch away) them instead you activate fight twice pile into them, fight again before they get chance and then consolidate again potentially killing another 15 or so. Then they hit back and splatter the Troupe squad but that's inevitable and what else are you gonna be charging with Troupe against Orks?
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amishprn86
Archon
amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 11:36

Kill full units and not 1/2 units.. thats kinda pointless, but hey, you think its better then ok. I have stated my examples and why. You dont like them so i'm not going to press it any more.

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Gizamaluke
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Gizamaluke

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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 11:56

That's fine dude, I guess I just see Troupe more as the clean up crew than the heavy hitters of the army. Look forward to hearing how your Ynnari Harlequin games go in comparison to your previous 8th ed experience with them.
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Dr.Morbid
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Dr.Morbid

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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 01:58

Thanks for your thoughts so far.
I also think its ok in friendly games to have a Ynnari Wych/bike list. But giving up Cursed blade for Ynnari, doesn't look appealing. I have so much more fun with Str5 wyches, butchering Marines and Orks alike.
At least I can include the models without losing anything, only they are quite expensive HQs.
But I am not going to go clowns.

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Gizamaluke
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Gizamaluke

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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 07:55

Theres a strategy floating around involving deepstriking 80 witches (40 cursed blade and 40 ynnari), you might be able to make two battalions and an Outrider of red grief reavers. I tested some hellions out and I think they'd still be better as Cursed blade than Ynnari (the 5++ spell didn't save them at all in my game vs tactical marines).
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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 15:01

I need to test Ynnari on Harlequin but I'm not thinking I need Ynnari for them, either.
These new rules feel like a solid, smart, mid-line set of rules. They're very playable and, if we *NEVER* had the debacle of "Hey, as long as you keep killing things feel free to just activate again. That seems fair so we'll just tweak it down as we go," then I think this Index set would just feel like another Obsession or Craftworld.
If the debate is "What's the most competitive" then I really don't think Ynnari is the answer ever. Solid Craftworld is top tier and DE Kab is very. I think Prophet of Flesh coven might be, too. But I don't think any Ynnari build will be at that high caliber.

What I think this does is give me a playable alternative that's kind of fun. I actually like the Ynnari fluff shake-up, for one. I like all three of their models. I play every version of space elf so this gives me an interesting new set of playstyle.
It perfectly gives a reason to specifically play models that are really aesthetically nice but sit on the shelf, too. I am excited about Incubi for the first time in five years. I cannot wait to see how big blobs of Whyches work, especially fearless and backed by an Yncarnne. I enthusiastically had squads of razorwing flocks on the table while considering them a very integral part of my army. I have not given much thought to Craftworld focused Ynnari but I am excited to see what Wraithblades, Striking Scorpions, and a number of other data sheets in Craftworld can do that I just haven't thought of in a while.

edit: Oh! and what I'm truly most excited about is having new HQ that can just ride along for the hell of it. And two new Psykers! For DE! Never expected that. It's the bow on this Christmas present.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 15:08

@nerdelemental wrote:
edit: Oh! and what I'm truly most excited about is having new HQ that can just ride along for the hell of it. And two new Psykers! For DE! Never expected that. It's the bow on this Christmas present.

Yeah, if nothing else I'm very on-board for including Yvraine in every DE list I run now.
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Gizamaluke
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Gizamaluke

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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 16:04

Yeah I love that I can take the Yncarne without it penalizing my list these days, especially since I've very nearly finished painting mine. I just feel that by trying to be inclusion of all the eldar you lose a lot of the flavour that the codexes provide as I've mentioned before and that a few of the Strats in the index are either too hard to trigger (wiping a unit in the psychic phase to get +3 to cast for instance, or needing to use all 3 types of eldar and the Ynnari characters to get +1A) and some just wont see use at all (Taste for Death and Shrine of the Whispering God).

My knowledge and experience of playing CWE is almost none existent though so maybe there are some cool things you can do with them.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeSat May 18 2019, 10:29

As a question, do you think making Soulburst +1 to Wound instead of +1 to hit would have made it overpowered?

I ask because that would have made it not useless on all characters, and also not completely redundant with PfP.

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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeSat May 18 2019, 10:59

Cant think of anything it would be overpowered on considering CWE already have it as a spell.
Maybe soulburst should have been "always fights first" and then stages for each unit destroyed;
1 unit = +1 to hit
2 unit = +1 to wound
3+ unit = +1attack
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New Ynnari Rules   New Ynnari Rules I_icon_minitimeSat May 18 2019, 11:52

@Gizamaluke wrote:
Cant think of anything it would be overpowered on considering CWE already have it as a spell.
Maybe soulburst should have been "always fights first" and then stages for each unit destroyed;
1 unit = +1 to hit
2 unit = +1 to wound
3+ unit = +1attack

Yeah, that would have been a lot better.

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