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Raidersrock
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PostSubject: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeFri May 10 2019, 17:40

If i include 2 lhamaean in a detachment can i get 2 extra venom for the detachment? I know they don’t count as taking up elite slot but do they count towards number of transports?
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeFri May 10 2019, 18:02

My opinion is that since it says "May include 1 for each other choice" that refers to other Battlefield Role rather than unit and since the Lhamean doesnt fill a detachment slot you shouldn't get an extra transport per Lhamean. I know Skari is currently doing something similar to get extra Venoms though and tourney officials haven't sided against it so I guess it's fair game.
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Gherma
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeFri May 10 2019, 18:37

I used lahmean to unlock transports in multiple tournaments and I’ve never had any problem.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeFri May 10 2019, 19:57

The lhamean is still another 'choice' regardless of whether it fills a slot (technically, an elite choice that doesn't take up an elite slot). Just like each unit of kabalite warriors is 1 troop 'choice', so yes, it unlocks another transport. This seems pretty clearly written. It is also how every tournament that I am aware of interprets the rule.
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeFri May 10 2019, 21:28

That's cool then, Its never really come up for me but I would have thought the Lhameans not counting regarding detachment building also negated them counting as "each other choice" in the dedicated transport rule.
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Gherma
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeSat May 11 2019, 20:14

There’s another transport related benefit in having a Lhamean: if you embark an Archon, the transport blows and you roll a 1, you can just decide to kill the Lhamean.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeSat May 11 2019, 23:15

All units in any detachment (Not taking up a slot doesnt mean they are not part of that detachment) can take a transport even your flyers can take transports.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2019, 02:06

@Gherma wrote:
There’s another transport related benefit in having a Lhamean: if you embark an Archon, the transport blows and you roll a 1, you can just decide to kill the Lhamean.

Every unit in the raider doesn't take a hit?
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Burnage
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2019, 02:36

@Jimsolo wrote:
@Gherma wrote:
There’s another transport related benefit in having a Lhamean: if you embark an Archon, the transport blows and you roll a 1, you can just decide to kill the Lhamean.

Every unit in the raider doesn't take a hit?

You have to roll a dice for each model in the transport, but you can allocate casualties after you've rolled the dice.

For example; if you've got two Archons, a Sslyth and two Lhameans in a Venom that explodes, you roll five dice. If you roll two 1s then you can choose to kill the two Lhameans.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2019, 03:49

Intriguing.
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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 14:42

All this said, have you really ever run into a scenario when you run out of slots in which to get venoms?

The fact that each of my ravagers means I can take one, as well as my HQ's means that if I just take a bare bones, 3 kabalite warrior squads, 3 ravagers and 2 archons, I can take 8 venoms. I would think you'd run out of points before you'd run out of slots
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 14:47

Considering it's legal as others have said, you can theoretically take a spearhead of Black Heart Heart Ravagers and take 4 members of the court for like 70odd pts to unlock 8 black Heart venoms, in the event you wanted to put some other sub faction in them like wyches, Ynnari DE or Obsidian Rose for instance.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 14:52

@krayd wrote:
The lhamean is still another 'choice' regardless of whether it fills a slot (technically, an elite choice that doesn't take up an elite slot). Just like each unit of kabalite warriors is 1 troop 'choice', so yes, it unlocks another transport. This seems pretty clearly written. It is also how every tournament that I am aware of interprets the rule.

Just playing Devil's Advocate for a second, but is "choice" ever actually defined anywhere in the rules? It doesn't seem clear to me whether it's referencing any unit full stop or a unit that's filling a detachment slot.
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 15:09

My interpretation was that any other choice was any other detachment slot as I've said, and since the court of archon cant be taken as individual elite choices in match play but instead as a single none detachment unit that was the basis of my arguement against it working this way (and how it works on battlescribe) but if TOs are going to allow it then fair enough
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 15:11

Quote :
Just playing Devil's Advocate for a second, but is "choice" ever actually defined anywhere in the rules? It doesn't seem clear to me whether it's referencing any unit full stop or a unit that's filling a detachment slot.

Without a specific definition I think it's fair we go to common English definitions of the term.

In this context, "Choice" can be interpreted as "Selection." And including the Court of the Archon is still a selection irregardless of if it takes a detachment slot.

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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 15:49

A "choice" is quite clearly based on a slot; HQ, Heavy, Elite for example. So a Lhamean is an Elite choice and fulfils 1 slot in a vanguard for example, counting as an Other Choice for a dedicated Transport.
Except we have the Court of Archon rule which says in matched play you may only take upto 4 court units in a detachment if you have an archon.
The court rule on the actual units says when theyre in a battle forged detachment with an archon they dont fulfil a "Slot" in a detachment which is the only way you can take them.
Looping back, if they dont fulfil a slot in the detachment building process, they dont count as an other choice and therefore dont unlock a dedicated transport. I think it being allowed in tournaments is more that it's not a common rule and therefore not on their radar as opposed to that's the way it's supposed to be played.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 16:12

@Silverglade wrote:
All this said, have you really ever run into a scenario when you run out of slots in which to get venoms?

The fact that each of my ravagers means I can take one, as well as my HQ's means that if I just take a bare bones, 3 kabalite warrior squads, 3 ravagers and 2 archons, I can take 8 venoms.    I would think you'd run out of points before you'd run out of slots

Yeah that's usually the case for me. I suppose in a list where you're only taking say a kabalite spearhead, and you want to load up venoms with wracks/wyches you might run out of kabalite trait venoms, but I've never made a list where that was an issue.

As far as the wording goes on this, I don't think there's an easy way to resolve it, I doubt the rules writers were thinking about this very rare scenario where a unit doesn't take up any slots in a detachment. But it doesn't sound like anyone, tournament organizers included seem to be ruling against it seems like a non issue to me.

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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 16:32

Yeah it could definitely be clearer, that said I wouldn't rely on tourney officials considering there was a guy on here the other day who said he had won a few tournaments with his list only to find it was illegal.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 17:11

Guys this has already been faq all units in your detachment that isnt a transport can take 1

Q: Where Detachments say that you may include 1 Dedicated
Transport for each other choice, what does that mean?
A: It means that for each unit you include in the
Detachment that does not have the Dedicated
Transport Battlefield Role, you can include one
Dedicated Transport.

Edit: the place where it is at, pg 11 under transports, 1st question

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en-3.pdf

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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 17:46

Doesnt really clear up the lhamean thing since they dont have a battlefield role if taken with an archon, who knows but maybe it needs an explicit FAQ for it not that I'm gonna ask GW and spoil the party
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 18:01

@Gizamaluke wrote:
Doesnt really clear up the lhamean thing since they dont have a battlefield role if taken with an archon, who knows but maybe it needs an explicit FAQ for it not that I'm gonna ask GW and spoil the party

It means that for each unit you include in the Detachment that does not have the Dedicated
Transport Battlefield Role


Is it in a detachment? Yes
Is it a Dedicated transport? No

Then you can take a dedicated transport for it.

Just because it doesnt take a slot doesnt mean it isnt part of that detachment, it is clearly stated that it is a part of a detachment.

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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 18:09

Hmm I guess so! Just doesnt seem natural to me, but as I've said many a time in this thread I wouldn't use it that way nor begrudge anyone who did.
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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 18:49

Giz, I'm super intrigued why that doesn't seem natural to you when this whole debate seems completely unnatural to me. It's an elite warrior entrusted with the survival and protection of an even more elite sovereign lord. No fancy car for you!
Really? She couldn't just walk into the loading dock and reconnoiter a Venom at her discretion? "Sorry, ma'am, but that one's checked out to those five kabalites."
"The frat boys?"
"Frat -- oh, no, not those five. They're from the Index. Those other five."
"The ones with the splinter rifles? The high school dropouts?"
"Yes, ma'am. You see, well, this is awkward, but you don't actually have any defined army role here....so weird..."
"I don't have any...defined role? I'm going to be dropped as far behind enemy lines, by myself, to stand guard over some box of equipment labeled 'Obj #4' armed only with this silky dress and a single sword dripping with the snot of a Talos."
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 20:59

Besides, lhameans still have a battlefield role. They're elites. They just don't count toward your maximum allowable number of elites in the detachment if taken via the court of the archon rule.
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Lhamaean and transports   Lhamaean and transports I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 21:56

@nerdelemental wrote:
Giz, I'm super intrigued why that doesn't seem natural to you when this whole debate seems completely unnatural to me. It's an elite warrior entrusted with the survival and protection of an even more elite sovereign lord. No fancy car for you!
Really? She couldn't just walk into the loading dock and reconnoiter a Venom at her discretion? "Sorry, ma'am, but that one's checked out to those five kabalites."
"The frat boys?"
"Frat -- oh, no, not those five. They're from the Index. Those other five."
"The ones with the splinter rifles? The high school dropouts?"
"Yes, ma'am. You see, well, this is awkward, but you don't actually have any defined army role here....so weird..."
"I don't have any...defined role? I'm going to be dropped as far behind enemy lines, by myself, to stand guard over some box of equipment labeled 'Obj #4' armed only with this silky dress and a single sword dripping with the snot of a Talos."

Just my interpretation of the rules dude, my logical train of thought is that if they dont fulfil a battlefield role because of their special rule then it doesnt unlock a dedicated transport, I know they're still elites but they dont fulfil the role.

Fluff wise I'd also assume the archon would have them riding alongside him, stroking his ego!
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