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 The Yncarne is AMAZING

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2019, 15:33

A bunch of folks I know use these guys.

Part of my hopes they just have no clue why.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2019, 16:06

I used zombiecide crows, pretty cheap and fit pretty well.

I'm glad to hear that the Yncarne is doing well for many people, but I remain concerned about the heavy price tag. We're talking not too far off knight price for her, that seems really steep for what she does.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2019, 16:25

It's definitely expensive, that's for sure.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2019, 16:43

@Jimsolo wrote:
Sounds like your experience is atypical.

Both here and on other forums, players are reporting success using the Yncarne as a melee threat.

I dunno, I'm pretty sure TA's viewpoint isn't that unusual in competitive circles. The key issue is that if the opponent knows how the Yncarne works they can try to game its teleportation options, which makes it potentially unreliable. Not being able to charge in the same turn that it teleports is a real pain.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2019, 18:11

@Burnage wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
Sounds like your experience is atypical.

Both here and on other forums, players are reporting success using the Yncarne as a melee threat.

I dunno, I'm pretty sure TA's viewpoint isn't that unusual in competitive circles. The key issue is that if the opponent knows how the Yncarne works they can try to game its teleportation options, which makes it potentially unreliable. Not being able to charge in the same turn that it teleports is a real pain.

This ^ it was a real melee threat, it still is, but not a 337 melee threat, more like a Hive-Tyrant threat level now that cost 100pts more to not be shot at basically.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2019, 18:35

If you understand the Yncarne better than your opponent understands the Yncarne then yeah you're gonna have some luck with it in close combat. However, if your opponent understands the Yncarne as well or better than you, you will lose it. If someone knows its mechanics well they can effectively make its purpose on the board nullified by turning your own actions against you. Most people have the Yncarne do double-duty, providing a fearless bubble while threatening anything in melee. People will lock the fearless unit in combat, do massive casualties, and then pile in in such a way that blocks the Yncarne in without finishing the unit off. They will force it to play babysitter the entire match to Guardians that are too far away to be effective. Or they'll goad it out and send it packing with a smash captain or smite spam. I've even seen one try to take on Mortarian which was just... yeah that didn't work.

So a good opponent will either trap it in its own fearless bubble or force it to appear into an unfavorable situation, and now with soulburst dead it's less threatening to kill stuff near it.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2019, 19:31

@TeenageAngst wrote:
If you understand the Yncarne better than your opponent understands the Yncarne then yeah you're gonna have some luck with it in close combat. However, if your opponent understands the Yncarne as well or better than you, you will lose it. If someone knows its mechanics well they can effectively make its purpose on the board nullified by turning your own actions against you. Most people have the Yncarne do double-duty, providing a fearless bubble while threatening anything in melee. People will lock the fearless unit in combat, do massive casualties, and then pile in in such a way that blocks the Yncarne in without finishing the unit off. They will force it to play babysitter the entire match to Guardians that are too far away to be effective. Or they'll goad it out and send it packing with a smash captain or smite spam. I've even seen one try to take on Mortarian which was just... yeah that didn't work.

So a good opponent will either trap it in its own fearless bubble or force it to appear into an unfavorable situation, and now with soulburst dead it's less threatening to kill stuff near it.

Now this I definitely agree with. (Very fine list of tricks not to fall for, and things not to do with the big Y.)

PARTICULARY THIS:
Quote :
If you understand the Yncarne better than your opponent understands the Yncarne then yeah you're gonna have some luck with it in close combat. However, if your opponent understands the Yncarne as well or better than you, you will lose it.

I feel like this is applicable to most units, and is the crux of winning in competitive 40k.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2019, 19:36

@TeenageAngst wrote:
If you understand the Yncarne better than your opponent understands the Yncarne then yeah you're gonna have some luck with it in close combat. However, if your opponent understands the Yncarne as well or better than you, you will lose it. If someone knows its mechanics well they can effectively make its purpose on the board nullified by turning your own actions against you. Most people have the Yncarne do double-duty, providing a fearless bubble while threatening anything in melee. People will lock the fearless unit in combat, do massive casualties, and then pile in in such a way that blocks the Yncarne in without finishing the unit off. They will force it to play babysitter the entire match to Guardians that are too far away to be effective. Or they'll goad it out and send it packing with a smash captain or smite spam. I've even seen one try to take on Mortarian which was just... yeah that didn't work.

So a good opponent will either trap it in its own fearless bubble or force it to appear into an unfavorable situation, and now with soulburst dead it's less threatening to kill stuff near it.

Even if your opponent is good and does either or both of those things, you can counter that by killing literally anything in their army. If you don't want it to be stuck, kill anything and it isn't.

If your opponent is refusing to kill targets that would allow it to teleport into a better spot, take advantage. "Okay, you won't kill my scourges because you don't want to let the Yncarne teleport? That's fine, I have invincible scourges now." That's a pretty nice advantage that your opponent freely gave.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2019, 20:30

@sekac wrote:
Even if your opponent is good and does either or both of those things, you can counter that by killing literally anything in their army. If you don't want it to be stuck, kill anything and it isn't.

If your opponent is refusing to kill targets that would allow it to teleport into a better spot, take advantage. "Okay, you won't kill my scourges because you don't want to let the Yncarne teleport? That's fine, I have invincible scourges now." That's a pretty nice advantage that your opponent freely gave.

You did not read what I said. Opponents kill units *hoping* it teleports. They also will bait you with stuff that's easy to kill in hopes of getting it out of position. It is difficult to find an opponent who will just let you kill something in an inopportune spot, especially when you're effectively playing 300+ points down.

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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2019, 21:45

Yeah to be fair my opponent was unaware of how powerful the teleport was and I found I was sacrificing units to get it out of combat rather than put it in a good position. I warned him multiple times about it but I'd made it work for me, a more savvy opponent wouldn't let it happen.
It seems like Ynnari have gone from "I wont use it against my friends because its busted" to "I'll use it against my friends if I feel they cant deal with pure dark eldar"
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 00:57

@TeenageAngst wrote:
@sekac wrote:
Even if your opponent is good and does either or both of those things, you can counter that by killing literally anything in their army. If you don't want it to be stuck, kill anything and it isn't.

If your opponent is refusing to kill targets that would allow it to teleport into a better spot, take advantage. "Okay, you won't kill my scourges because you don't want to let the Yncarne teleport? That's fine, I have invincible scourges now." That's a pretty nice advantage that your opponent freely gave.

You did not read what I said. Opponents kill units *hoping* it teleports. They also will bait you with stuff that's easy to kill in hopes of getting it out of position. It is difficult to find an opponent who will just let you kill something in an inopportune spot, especially when you're effectively playing 300+ points down.

Sure, a clever opponent might try to bait you into using it poorly. The best advice I can give is the same for any bait tactics with and against any unit: don't take the bait.

I'm definitely telling tales out of school, here, as I don't own the model and havent used it. So take my opinion with all the salt in the world. I just appreciate the value of making your opponent have to make decisions they don't normally have to make. People have their usual logic tree of what to target and the Yncarne can mess with that significantly.

An experienced or clever player may navigate that well, but even then, they're making moves to try to minimize the power of one of your units. They sacrifice squads to bait you? Don't take the bait and all they did was throw a squad away. Put small deep striking units on their flanks (where they usually go anyway). Then they have to choose to ignore those squads, kill them and let the Yncarne threaten to roll the flank, or somehow find a way to both deal with the unit AND limit the Yncarne's teleport. There isn't really an easy path through any of those options.

Some opponents may be able to do it, many won't.

Cost is the only issue.
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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 08:28

I think you guys are overestimating peoples intelligence lol... I haven't had a game yet where someone didn't do a tactical mistake which I took advantage of to do stuff with the yncarne even after constantly warning them of what he can do. And I'm a mediocre player myself 😜
And since 99% of the time you play against normal people and not tactical geniuses like seyda need or whatever that guys name is you might as well go full dark eldar evil and do unspeakable things to them... 😈
The bottom line is that he's ridiculously fun to play with...!
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 14:25

In casual games I can usually rely on a few blunders.

In competitive games, the middle rounds of the winner's tier usually sees people at their best, and I've seen plenty of games where the opponent never screws up, or where they make maybe one half-mistake. (Of their own volition, at any rate.)

It's worth kicking around how much of a unit's utility comes from its own resources and how much comes from ignorance surrounding it.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 15:02

@Jimsolo wrote:
In casual games I can usually rely on a few blunders.

In competitive games, the middle rounds of the winner's tier usually sees people at their best, and I've seen plenty of games where the opponent never screws up, or where they make maybe one half-mistake. (Of their own volition, at any rate.)

It's worth kicking around how much of a unit's utility comes from its own resources and how much comes from ignorance surrounding it.

The other aspect is the investment.

In terms of price, the Yncarne is approaching a Super-Heavy, yet is relatively slow (relying on its redeployment ability to get around) and has no ranged capability whatsoever.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri May 24 2019, 13:24

Yes, the Yncarne is amazing and it is probably the most difficult piece of the entire game to play correctly. It is stunning when you finally get all the shenaningans it can put on the table. And now you can play stratagems on him (lightning fast reactions, for example), you have the psychic sphere, and his WL trait is pretty good actually (considering that it is nearly unkillable if played well).
It literally cuts your opponent's plans off.


I suggest to bring some fast melee with him, because being able to fight/die after the Yncare fight means teleports him before the opponent will fight back (and it is just one of the tricks that you can pull out from the hat).
Seriously, one of the best unit in the game for what it brings.
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri May 24 2019, 17:18

I was thinking about using some movement based mortal wounds like the Voidraven bomber or Swooping Hawks to open up a hole in the enemy for the Yncarne to teleport into and set off Storm of Whispers and smite/Gaze, before shooting something to teleport him back out. Though I think something like a Warlock Skyrunner might be better for a Stormy Whisper bomb, fly it into a little gap in a tau castle and set it off, they'll have to shoot him dead then bring him back from the brink to soak more firepower/get another psyker turn off if they dont finish him.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri May 24 2019, 17:43

@Gizamaluke wrote:
I was thinking about using some movement based mortal wounds like the Voidraven bomber or Swooping Hawks to open up a hole in the enemy for the Yncarne to teleport  into and set off Storm of Whispers and smite/Gaze, before shooting something to teleport him back out. Though I think something like a Warlock Skyrunner might be better for a Stormy Whisper bomb, fly it into a little gap in a tau castle and set it off, they'll have to shoot him dead then bring him back from the brink to soak more firepower/get another psyker turn off if they dont finish him.

Do you think Swooping Hawks or the Voidraven would actually be able to kill a unit? Based on their mechanics it seems unlikely.

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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri May 24 2019, 17:54

I use 1 voidraven most games and the bomb did really well, you would definitely need 3 to secure the job though.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat May 25 2019, 16:15

Play some test games with new rules with the Yncarne.

He is now on my self, as a long time Yncarne player and even taking it to ITC tournaments doing well (always won 2 games at worst)m he is not worth it for any reason in any way. Lost of teleport melee in both turns and with the high cost its just a waste.

But on another note, my Reavers where much better, took a 9 man, great at turn 1 charges (can advance and charge) can re-roll wounds, etc.. and fallback, shoot, charge, great at chaff/bubble wrap killer or bubble wrap jumpers. I think they are finally worth to take as 1 large unit, they for sure out preform DE reavers. I have a theory that Ynnari is more of a Bike army now and so far my test games has shown that. Will talk more about it in Ynnari mini dex post.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat May 25 2019, 22:26

Not getting why Reavers are better as Ynnari? You pay 2CP each time to get Ynnari Reavers to advance and charge whereas Red Grief Reavers get it for free every turn plus they can re-roll failed charges. How does SfD make up for that?

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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat May 25 2019, 22:28

Yeah I dont see it either since reroll wounds is nothing that special on reavers
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat May 25 2019, 23:54

Today I played again against 3IK+Cadians+Vindicare. The Yncarne still amazing, and I found 3x3 RedGrief Reavers great for him. Finally a good way to use Reavers in a competitive way, I'm happy
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun May 26 2019, 03:53

@Gizamaluke wrote:
Yeah I dont see it either since reroll wounds is nothing that special on reavers

Why not? Re-roll wound is good on everything.

For 1 CP you can give them +1 attack and another +1 with drugs. 4 bladevane attacks that hit on 2+ and both re-rolls to hit and wound is a pretty significant threat to be crashing into enemy lines on turn 1 potentially.

And don't forget that jetbikes can be brought back from the dead or healed by Ynnari Psykers.

Red grief bikes can advance and charge, which is definitely cool. The re-roll charges from Red Grief ONLY matters on turn 1, though, since Ynnari reavers keep PfP. So as nice as advance and charge is, it's one very specific and often unnecessary perk. Compared to hitting harder, more efficiently, and coming back from the dead, I'm willing to give it up.
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun May 26 2019, 08:45

Fair enough, you guys have decided the +1A strat doesnt require all 3 eldar factions to be present or did GW faq it?
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne is AMAZING   The Yncarne is AMAZING - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun May 26 2019, 15:26

There's no FaQ, yes, you actually need 1 Harleys, 1 Drukhari and 1 Craftworld detatchment, all of them Ynnari (bye bye Vect) and all the three Ynnari heroes.

Yeah that strat is far from being good to me
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