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 How to beat imperial knights

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Raidersrock
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Raidersrock

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Join date : 2019-04-15

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PostSubject: How to beat imperial knights    How to beat imperial knights  I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2019, 06:48

I used to have detachment of eldar fot doom and jinx but cant do that after faq. What is best way to counter 3 to 4 titan knights. Strength 5 dissies have trouble. Usually have 3 archon 2 blasters 3 dissie ravagers 2 dissie razorwing 7 venom 6 kabalite with blasters 4 units wyches and 2 succubus. Can deal with everything else but knights are tough to beat
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GreyArea
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: How to beat imperial knights    How to beat imperial knights  I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2019, 09:57

Talos with haywire and urien to give them strength 8 macro scalpels is pretty good. Hard to kill as well.

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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: How to beat imperial knights    How to beat imperial knights  I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2019, 10:01

I'm gonna suggest something that might be considered controversial but it has worked quite well for me.
Alaitoc hemlock wraithfighters. One detachment of them with jinx. Yes jinx will work for them only but those things have huge survivability with - 2 to hit and their 12 str auto hit is huge against high toughness targets
With a bit of luck if all three of them focus a Knight with smites, and jinx they will Bring it down or severely injure it so you ravagers/blasters can finish it
Other than that haywire is your friend

P. S. Another option right now except the usual stuff and if you don't want to soup with other eldar is the yncarne since you can freely include him anywhere without downsides
He costs alot but if he charges a Knight his 7 str7 d6damage attacks with reroll to wounds will decimate a Knight


Last edited by DevilDoll on Mon May 06 2019, 10:13; edited 1 time in total
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Gizamaluke
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Gizamaluke

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PostSubject: Re: How to beat imperial knights    How to beat imperial knights  I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2019, 10:12

Just play the mission, this is why a lot of people dont find playing against mono knights fun. It's often insurmountable to destroy them unless you built specifically against them (I.e ALL the anti tank) so you just have to beat them on points. Try playing the Chapter Approved missions where you dont auto lose if tabled and just run away with points so they cant catch up.
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amishprn86
Archon
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PostSubject: Re: How to beat imperial knights    How to beat imperial knights  I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2019, 12:58

Ally in 6 Skyweavers, its 270pts with you dont take the melee weapons, and thats 6D6 Haywire shots, its something like 9+1D3 MW's and 2-3 normal Wounds each turn, if you take them as Soaring Spite you can advance + shoot and gain a 3++, while being -1 to be hit, it will harass the knights all game and can zoom and take objectives at the same time, finally you can get to a -2 to be hit lol,. You could take 3x2 units in a outrider with a Shadowseer, she can deal 3D3 MW's to any unit (2 powers and a HGL) but now your Bikes are split up and the 2 stratagems wont work as well, but you now have more units to take objectives.


With some Skyweavers and Talas, along with all your other shooting you should be able to kill 1 and 1/2 knights turn 1 and 2, killing 3 by turn 2, after that it will be very hard as they are killing your stuff too, but the Bikes most likely will never die.

I play ITC vs players with 3 knights all the time (they are really good in ITC how the secondaries work and Kill more) and i have never had all my Skyweavers die before.

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Lord Asvaldir
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: How to beat imperial knights    How to beat imperial knights  I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2019, 14:07

I was thinking about getting some skyweavers, that actually sounds quite solid. Even without doom I imagine the quantity of haywire will do quite well.

I do agree with Gizamaluke though, you can always play the objective game. Especially in ITC you'll easily get the hold more every turn, and there are some easy secondaries to score against knights such as putting kingslayer on any character knights and taking board control objectives like recon. You shouldn't feel like your average list always needs to have the firepower to take out 72 t8 +3 armor wounds. If you always build a list that way, it's difficult to keep it well rounded to face other armies, and with the recent errata I suspect we'll see a few less knights in the tournament scene.

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: How to beat imperial knights    How to beat imperial knights  I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2019, 16:09

Honestly, Gizamaluke is right.Play the mission and you beat them. You might not destroy the Knights, but you win the game.

______________________________________________________________

Also, Recreational Mathematics!
Based on base rules on dataslate without upgrades and stratagems.

SPLINTER
Armiger: 12 damage to kill. 2/3 save, so 36 wounds needed. 6 to wound, so 216 hits needed. 2/3 hit, so 324 shots. Thats 162 Warriors at half range, or 27 Venoms with two cannons.
Knight: 24 damage to kill. 2/3 save, so 72 wounds needed. 6 to wound, so 432 hits needed. 2/3 hit, so 648 shots. Thats 324 Warriors at half range, or 54 Venoms with two cannons.
Big Knight: 28 damage to kill. 2/3 save, so 84 wounds needed. 6 to wound, so 504 hits needed. 2/3 hit, so 756 shots. Thats 378 Warriors at half range, or 63 Venoms with two cannons.

LANCE
Armiger: 12 damage to kill. Average 3 damage per wound, so 4 unsaved wounds. 1/3 save on invulnerable, so 6 wounds needed. 2/3 wound, so 9 hits needed. 2/3 hit, so 14 shots.
Knight: 24 damage to kill. Average 3 damage per wound, so 8 unsaved wounds. 1/3 save on invulnerable, so 12 wounds needed. 2/3 wound, so 18 hits needed. 2/3 hit, so 27 shots.
Big Knight: 28 damage to kill. Average 3 damage per wound, so 10 unsaved wounds. 1/3 save on invulnerable, so 15 wounds needed. 2/3 wound, so 23 hits needed. 2/3 hit, so 34 shots.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: How to beat imperial knights    How to beat imperial knights  I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2019, 17:20

Against a big Knight you should probably be assuming a 4++, so you actually need -

48 Dark Lances or Blasters
42 Disintegrator Cannnons
28 Haywire Blasters
or 16 Haywire Cannons

to kill it in a single turn. Now that Doom/Jinx is gone I'm pretty sure we don't really have a way to consistently shoot a Knight to death in a single turn.


Last edited by Burnage on Tue May 07 2019, 03:38; edited 1 time in total
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: How to beat imperial knights    How to beat imperial knights  I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2019, 19:27

I wish I had the math skills to figure out how many Storm Vortex Projectors you need.
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: How to beat imperial knights    How to beat imperial knights  I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2019, 19:36

@Jimsolo wrote:
I wish I had the math skills to figure out how many Storm Vortex Projectors you need.

Divide the number of dark lance/blaster shots by 3 (the average you would get on a d6 number of shots assuming you didn't move making you hit at BS4+) so 16 DE Reapers.
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: How to beat imperial knights    How to beat imperial knights  I_icon_minitimeThu May 09 2019, 07:23

If you try to have a shoot out with Knights, even with above average rolls, you *should* lose every time. That's just how the maths works out. They're hard as nails, they have fantastic weapons, and amazing stratagems.

You can get in there with Talos, that will do the trick.

But if you don't have Talos, you can still win, you don't have to kill them to win; just out-manoeuvre and out-play them.

For instance, fliers can't block Knights as well as they used to, but they can still screw with them in near ruins and building, especially if you bring multiples. Put make a row of them along a street and that street is safe from Knights.

Focus their scoring units instead - I can't remember the last time I ever saw Knights show up alone; they're usually accompanied by the loyal 32 or similar. Kill them. Then take board control.

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Axmar
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PostSubject: Re: How to beat imperial knights    How to beat imperial knights  I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 11:13

or charge them with 20 strength 5 wyches and 20 strength 5 hellions, if you do, you one shot a Knight

Ok, Arrow

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: How to beat imperial knights    How to beat imperial knights  I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 11:22

@hydranixx wrote:
If you try to have a shoot out with Knights, even with above average rolls, you *should* lose every time. That's just how the maths works out. They're hard as nails, they have fantastic weapons, and amazing stratagems.

You can get in there with Talos, that will do the trick.

But if you don't have Talos, you can still win, you don't have to kill them to win; just out-manoeuvre and out-play them.

For instance, fliers can't block Knights as well as they used to, but they can still screw with them  in near ruins and building, especially if you bring multiples. Put make a row of them along a street and that street is safe from Knights.

Focus their scoring units instead - I can't remember the last time I ever saw Knights show up alone; they're usually accompanied by the loyal 32 or similar. Kill them. Then take board control.

A popular list is 3 Knights, sure they will have other things (as long as it isnt Assassins) if you handle a knight turn 1 and turn 2 you'll win for sure, killing the Crusader ASAP as its the one going to do damage to you, then the other better shooting one. The other 600pts of chaff can be dealt with via Poison/melee.

The only knight type list i personally am scare of is the 3 melee knights with 7-8 assassins and Loyal 32. Assassin are to good for their points with character protection, try going up against 2-3 Vindicares, 2-3 Culexus, and 1-2 Eversor with Knights and Guards body blocking them while the whole army is rushing at you.

New Headshot and stratagems makes the assassins so good, you dont care about CP on the knights, they are there to stop your army from moving and body blocking objectives, they still deal good damage too, but man, its a tricky list.

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: How to beat imperial knights    How to beat imperial knights  I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 04:41

Depending on the local terrain, melee knights (Gallants) are generally considered to fairly weak, even though they're cheap. Because of the way combat works, you can park your venom on anything 1.1" or higher off the ground and it's untouchable in melee.* Not to mention a handful of barrels in the middle of the board adding several inches to the charge required for the Gallant.

*There is a one strat where a knight with a melee weapon can swing with it into a set of ruins, but this still means that only one knight can attack if you put all your planes on little obstacles, and it means they have to use their melee weapon instead of kicking.

The scary Knights lists for us features no Gallants, instead they bring three Crusaders. Three Gatlings and 3 Icarus Autocannons gets very daunting to deal with for Dark Eldar.

I've played as Renegade Knights with 5 Gatlings and 3 Icarus Autocannons against a Dark Eldar player, and it's not pretty what those things get up to over the course of a game against T5 and T6 ships.

The only advice I can offer if you don't have Yncarne or Talos (who are about the only choices with a legitimate chance to take on a knight in melee and win) is:

- Out score them early
- Throw cheap Troops in front of them to slow them down when it comes to it
- Use and abuse terrain as much as possibly to stay out of reach of the stomps
- Lock other units in combat so shooty knights can't shoot you.

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