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 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III

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Glass Battleaxe
Hellion
Glass Battleaxe

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PostSubject: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 12 2019, 22:21

Recently, I decided to tweak the Wych Cult list that I'm working on for a tournament in August - I've posted the basic list before, but have since had some practice with Wych Cults, and have found out what works and what doesn't.

So, here it is - Mark 3 of my Wych Cult list:

Battalion, Outrider and Air Wing Detachments (+7 CP) - 1998pts - 98 Power

Battalion - Wych Cult - Red Grief

HQ

- Succubus with Blood Glaive and Blast Pistol - 60pts
- Combat Drug: Grave Lotus (+1 Strength)

- Succubus with Archite Glaive and Splinter Pistol - 50pts
 - Combat Drug: Serpentin (+1 Weapon Skill)

Troops
- 10 Wyches (2 Razorflails; Shardnet and Impaler; Hekatrix has Agoniser, Splinter Pistol and PGL) - 100pts
- 10 Wyches (2 Hydra Gauntlets; Shardnet and Impaler; Hekatrix has Agoniser, Blast Pistol and PGL) - 110pts
- 10 Wyches (2 Hydra Gauntlets; Shardnet and Impaler; Hekatrix has Power Sword, Blast Pistol and PGL) - 110pts
 - All 3 squads have the Adrenalight Combat Drug (+1 Attack)

Dedicated Transport
- Raider with Disintegrator Cannon, PGL, Grisly Trophies and Splinter Racks - 95pts
- Raider with Dark Lance, PGL, Grisly Trophies and Splinter Racks - 100pts
- Raider with Dark Lance, PGL, Grisly Trophies and Splinter Racks - 100pts


Outrider Detachment - Wych Cult - Red Grief

HQ

- Succubus with Shardnet and Impaler (Warlord: Hyper-Swift Reflexes) - 55pts
 - Combat Drug: Painbringer (+1 Toughness)

Fast Attack
- 20 Hellions (Helliarch has Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Stunclaw and Splinter Pistol) - 287pts
 - Combat Drug: Splintermind (+2 Leadership)

- 6 Reavers (2 Heat Lances; 2 Grav-Talons; Arena Champion has Agoniser) - 148pts
- 6 Reavers (2 Blasters; 2 Grav-Talons; Arena Champion has Power Sword) - 158pts
 - Both Reaver squads have the Hypex Combat Drug (+2 Move)

Elites
- 10 Mandrakes - 160pts


Air Wing Detachment - Kabal - Flayed Skull

Flyer

- Razorwing Jetfighter with Disintegrator Cannons and Splinter Cannon - 145pts
- Razorwing Jetfighter with Dark Lances and Splinter Cannon - 155pts
- Voidraven Bomber with Void Lances and Missiles - 165pts


Reasons behind some of the changes:
- I have recently discovered the effectiveness of Mandrakes. They are now a permanent addition to any of my Drukhari lists. It has effectively replaced the Reaper in my list - I felt that a unit that didn't benefit from Red Grief would be better than one that found little use for it.
- Following a few battles, I felt like the whole beasts section of units wasn't that effective - they had their moments, but in general they weren't that successful (at least, not for me)
- I've been tempted to bring the Hellions to full strength for a while, and had to lose the beasts/master to get the points I needed.
- While painting up the Wyches and Raider, I decided to do a quick bit of converting/kitbashing to give them WYSIWYG PGL's - at the very least, it's another weapon to shoot.
- With about 30 points left over, I gave the Raiders splinter racks - I know it's not as effective for Wyches, but I didn't really have anything else to spend it on.


As always, comments, critique and strategic tidbits are always welcome.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 15 2019, 13:13

Ok.
I would not get caught up in the "red Grief is great" bandwagon. What does Red Grief get you? reroll charges (which you can do turn 2 anyway) and charge after advance. this is good for wyches on foot, or your big blob of hellions to do the fly over stratagem, which 9 times out of 10 will just put you in an unfavorable position.

If you go strife, you all get +1 attack. If you go Blade, you get +1 str AND only lose 1 guy to morale (which is huge for your hellions) Both of these are good ALL THE TIME, not just some of the time.

If you kept your list as is- I would make your battalion Strife and the Outrider grief. I would give blast pistols to the 2 succubi that do not have them and a hekatrix. there are your 30 points, and not wasted on splinter racks.

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Glass Battleaxe
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 15 2019, 17:07

@Skulnbonz thanks for the response.

Thing is, I've always been using Red Grief, so I just really used to it - though I will give it a try with one of the other obsessions. Plus, I look at the obsessions as a whole, not just the unit trait itself, which is what helped me pick Red Grief - the stratagems, warlord trait and relic are taken into consideration, and while Strife has some interesting stuff, Cursed Blade, imo, doesn't: not enough to warrant the strength and morale benefits.

Regarding your comments in the last paragraph:
- while I get what you're going for with having multiple obsessions, the tournament I'm entering requires that, if I'm using two cults, that they be visually distinguishable. And having finally decided on a colour scheme I like, I'd rather not paint half my force a different colour - if I change the obsession for cults, I change it for ALL my cult units.
- the tournament also mentions that all models must be WYSIWYG, and the three models you mentioned don't have blast pistols on the model - I would prefer to keep it that way for a bit of diversity.
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Lord Weston
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 15 2019, 17:24

The composition of your list generally looks good. You seem to have everything covered. I do agree with you that Red Grief has the better relic and warlord trait but Glass battleaxe is right about the other cults for damage output. The strife blood dancer succubus with typtrich whip is also pretty good at general slayage for 55 points. The one damage is a major suck though. The only thing I would question is not having room for at least some of your characters in raiders, I know they are pretty fast but it might cause you problems in a few games where you need the RR aura with the wyches
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 22 2019, 17:11

@Glass Battleaxe wrote:
@Skulnbonz thanks for the response.

Thing is, I've always been using Red Grief, so I just really used to it - though I will give it a try with one of the other obsessions. Plus, I look at the obsessions as a whole, not just the unit trait itself, which is what helped me pick Red Grief - the stratagems, warlord trait and relic are taken into consideration, and while Strife has some interesting stuff, Cursed Blade, imo, doesn't: not enough to warrant the strength and morale benefits.

The above reasoning is sound, however, the value of the warlord trait and relic are used up once you put them on a character. After that, you're looking at obsession benefits and stratagems. The cursed blade stratagem is bad, but the red grief one isn't amazing either. Highly situational. So really, it comes to obsessions. Red grief is probably the worst one for wyches, and almost definitely for hellions. Look at the combat drugs you're taking on them. The drugs on your wyches makes them like Cult of Strife wyches, the drugs on your hellions tries to mitigate the downside of large squads, something that cursed blade solves entirely AND makes them hit harder.

Quote :
Regarding your comments in the last paragraph:
- while I get what you're going for with having multiple obsessions, the tournament I'm entering requires that, if I'm using two cults, that they be visually distinguishable. And having finally decided on a colour scheme I like, I'd rather not paint half my force a different colour - if I change the obsession for cults, I change it for ALL my cult units.

I think probably the easiest solution would be to paint the base edge a different color. It'll take no time at all, is very easy to undo as well, and will make them clearly distinct.


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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 22 2019, 21:02

I think choosing wych cult obsessions is actually the toughest out of our three factions. There's no doubt that red grief is king on reavers, but it's only slightly useful on wyches and hellions. Cursed blade on the other hand is incredible on wyches and hellions, basically a free extra combat drug, plus the moral thing which I feel is mandatory on a big hellion unit. Strife is the one I actually see as a good middle ground obsession if you want all your wych cult units to be the same obsession, everything benefits from an extra attack, their warlord trait combined with the triptych whip is solid, and their stratagem ain't bad either.

I understand the difficulty though of the painting requirement, and I'm really not sure just different colors on the bases will really cut it. My plan is to have all cult units have the same black armor to go with my kabal, but their combat suits will be white for the reavers, red for the hellions and a mix for wyches so they can go in either detachment.

As for as your list goes, looks fairly solid overall. I think you could cut down on pts here and there though, heat lances for example are pretty eh. If you dropped the heat lances and the pretty much useless splinter racks, you'd have enough pts for a venom to throw a succubus or two in, because all 3 of them footslogging really sucks. I'd also throw hyperswift reflexes on the succubus with the blood glaive, she's a suburb damage dealer and the one you want to keep alive the longest. I always feel the shardnet&impaler succubus is just kinda a throw away tie up unit anyway.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2019, 04:02

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
I understand the difficulty though of the painting requirement, and I'm really not sure just different colors on the bases will really cut it.

It may not, but it should if the intent is to make it clear for the opponent. If that doesn't cut it, the TO is straying further into dictating color scheme, which really isn't their business if it meets minimum tournament standard.

If the concern is for functionality and ease of play, different base rings cover more surface area than shoulder pads and knee pads anyway. But definitely check with the TO.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2019, 22:01

I suppose it depends on the tournament, your local tournament at a store probably not an issue, but I was looking at the requirements for NOVA and it didn't seem like to me that would cut it. Personally, that sort of requirement doesn't bother me at all as I love having a lot of varied looks across my dark eldar models, but I understand how that does bother many people.

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Glass Battleaxe
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2019, 22:11

To clarify, the tournament in question is the Pompey Pillage run by @Squidmaster, and in the rules pack, it specifically states that "If your army contains Detachments from different Sub-Factions (Hivefleet Leviathan alongside Behemoth for example), they MUST be clearly, visually distinguishable so that your opponents can tell them apart at a glance." (this is quoted straight from the rules pack). It also gives examples of what isn't accepted further on in the pack - one of which is someone with two identical World Burners-painted detachments, but claiming that one is Dark Angels and the other is Black Templars.

So, no - in this instance, different color bases will not cut it.

I'll be playing a match tomorrow with a smaller list, where I'll try out Cult of Strife - see what it's like. But if I do plan on changing to Cult of Strife, I'll be changing ALL my cult stuff to it, not just one detachment.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2019, 22:58

@Glass Battleaxe wrote:
To clarify, the tournament in question is the Pompey Pillage run by @Squidmaster, and in the rules pack, it specifically states that "If your army contains Detachments from different Sub-Factions (Hivefleet Leviathan alongside Behemoth for example), they MUST be clearly, visually distinguishable so that your opponents can tell them apart at a glance." (this is quoted straight from the rules pack). It also gives examples of what isn't accepted further on in the pack - one of which is someone with two identical World Burners-painted detachments, but claiming that one is Dark Angels and the other is Black Templars.

So, no - in this instance, different color bases will not cut it.

I still don't see how you arrive at that conclusion. Are red bases and green bases clearly distinguishable at a glance? Yes.

Are wyches with green bases identically painted to wyches with red bases? No.

If you're sure he won't allow it, or don't even want to go down that road, then sure, change it all over. I just can't think of a single good argument of why that shouldn't count.
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2019, 23:18

I considered using spare flags from Venoms and Raiders painted and with the related transfer for the relevant Cult on them, with a little pin hole in the Hekatrix base. Thought that would be pretty clear and I could swap the flag if I wanted to change up the cult without repainting/buying more models.
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sekac
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2019, 00:29

@Gizamaluke wrote:
I considered using spare flags from Venoms and Raiders painted and with the related transfer for the relevant Cult on them, with a little pin hole in the Hekatrix base. Thought that would be pretty clear and I could swap the flag if I wanted to change up the cult without repainting/buying more models.

Ooh that's a great idea!
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Glass Battleaxe
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2019, 03:18

@sekac wrote:
I still don't see how you arrive at that conclusion. Are red bases and green bases clearly distinguishable at a glance? Yes.

Are wyches with green bases identically painted to wyches with red bases? No.

If you're sure he won't allow it, or don't even want to go down that road, then sure, change it all over. I just can't think of a single good argument of why that shouldn't count.

I suppose I'm seeing it more from a fluff perspective (which does have a strong presence in the tournament I mentioned) - to me, Red Grief Wyches wouldn't wear the same colours as Strife Wyches, which is why I don't like the idea of just painting the bases different colours.

Plus, I prefer to keep it simple - while I often use the alliance of agony, I rarely use more than one kabal, or more than one cult, in a single list. Even my craftworld stuff I tend to keep as a single craftworld, even if some of the units would benefit better from another - it's just how I personally prefer to play them.

@sekac wrote:
But definitely check with the TO

I'll be playing a match tomorrow (which is technically today) at the club that runs the tournament, so I will ask him personally how the rule was meant to be interpreted.
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TSkouboe
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2019, 07:47

I'm a new player and am curious.

1. How do you get the Succubi forward? Do they run behind the raiders, trying to keep up?

2. You say the Mandrakes are doing great for you. How do you use them?
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2019, 08:19

@Glass Battleaxe wrote:

I suppose I'm seeing it more from a fluff perspective (which does have a strong presence in the tournament I mentioned) - to me, Red Grief Wyches wouldn't wear the same colours as Strife Wyches, which is why I don't like the idea of just painting the bases different colours.

That depends entirely on the fluff you've created for your army. I use Kabal of the Flayed Skull, but that's not the fluff for my army. All I'm doing is saying "this Kabal operates in a way that is similar to KotFS". Not this is...

Maybe your wych cult focuses on divergent paths of training similar to the thinking of aspect warriors. The way of the hekatarii blade, the way of the jetbike, etc. Their differing obsessions are exactly that. They're obsessed with one approach to warfare to the point of perfection.

Anyway, do what you're comfortable with and think you'll enjoy. 8th edition is a sandbox. Don't be afraid to play in it!

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Glass Battleaxe
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2019, 21:42

So, the match I had tonight was... insightful, to say the least. It was 1000pts, and my opponent brought Necrons - suffice to say, I got slaughtered 16-0.

However, it has tempted me to consider changing my cult to Strife - the amount of attacks they can unleash is insane, especially when combined with the adrenalight drug. I'll probably need another match or two to experiment.

@sekac I asked the guy who runs the tournament and he said, and I quote, 'the base doesn't count' - it has to be painted as such that an opponent can glance at an army and see that there's two different sub factions. Apparently, he incorporated this rule after a previous run of the tournament where someone was caught changing which units had which buff mid-game. So, to finalise the point, no - simply using different colour bases does not count: the models themselves have to be different colours. (At least, for this tournament)
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2019, 21:47

I'm surprised Necrons did that well, I find they usually aren't a match up DE struggle against. If you get their main shooters locked in melee against wyches, they will have a rough time unless it's a melee heavy crons list which is rare. Is there anything in particular you struggled against?

I am not surprised about the painting requirement, seems to be the direction some tournaments are going, and personally I think that it's a completely fair requirement.

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Glass Battleaxe
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2019, 21:57

The problem I had was mainly to do with my opponent getting good rolls for his reanimation protocols, plus I didn't exactly have enough firepower to kill a unit outright. My list was a battalion with 3 succubi, 3 blobs of 10 wyches, 2 raiders, a voidraven and 10 hellions - we're doing a league at our club, so we add 250pts a month up to the tournament, hence why my list is a bit odd.

Ironically, if I was playing red grief, i could probably have got some charges off turn 1, as it was a smaller board (48'x48') but I wanted to test out strife. As i said, I'll need some more practice.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2019, 22:12

Circle his units. If he can't put his model at 1'' or more of your models, he can't reanimate it.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2019, 23:09

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
I am not surprised about the painting requirement, seems to be the direction some tournaments are going, and personally I think that it's a completely fair requirement.

I think making it clear for your opponent is completely fair. "Bases don't count because bases don't count" isn't fair or reasonable. If it's clear to the opponent, it should be allowed, IMO. Otherwise, it becomes very messy trying to define acceptable clarity and unacceptable clarity. How much different do the schemes need to be? No overlapping pallets or some? If some, how much? A percentage? A quantity of parts painted differently? How far away must this incredibly ambiguous and subjective "at a glance" standard be applied? 6 feet? 12 feet? 20 feet? If they can't be expected to glance at the base, what part should they focus on glancing at? And so on.

Anyways you have your ruling, so I'll drop it. It just seems like showing up, setting up, and having the TO glance at your army to tell you whether or not you're allowed to play that day it is a terribly inefficient system.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 25 2019, 01:40

Holy crap thats a terrible TO, you dont make stupid rules b.c you think someone can cheat.. they can just paint a different model and swap them out when you are not looking anyways, or they will cheat in another way, you dont make silly rules for the fear of a cheater, cheaters cheat regarless of the rules. It just makes the event less fun and more stressful for the normal players.

And most tournaments and players actually rather marks on the bases than painting their army a different color, my army is themed, regardless of the <Traits> its a theme and im not changing it for a person that is scared of something that has less than a 1% chance to happen.

Rant over.

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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 26 2019, 15:45

@Gizamaluke wrote:
I considered using spare flags from Venoms and Raiders painted and with the related transfer for the relevant Cult on them, with a little pin hole in the Hekatrix base. Thought that would be pretty clear and I could swap the flag if I wanted to change up the cult without repainting/buying more models.

This is what brilliant really looks like people. I so wish I had thought of this before coming up with a 6+ color-coding system to differentiate squads and obsessions.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 26 2019, 17:39

@Tounguekutter wrote:
@Gizamaluke wrote:
I considered using spare flags from Venoms and Raiders painted and with the related transfer for the relevant Cult on them, with a little pin hole in the Hekatrix base. Thought that would be pretty clear and I could swap the flag if I wanted to change up the cult without repainting/buying more models.

This is what brilliant really looks like people.  I so wish I had thought of this before coming up with a 6+ color-coding system to differentiate squads and obsessions.

But... this is the normal Surprised I didnt know others didnt know about this Sad

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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III   2000pt Wych Cult and Fliers - Mk. III I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 26 2019, 18:15

@Tounguekutter wrote:
@Gizamaluke wrote:
I considered using spare flags from Venoms and Raiders painted and with the related transfer for the relevant Cult on them, with a little pin hole in the Hekatrix base. Thought that would be pretty clear and I could swap the flag if I wanted to change up the cult without repainting/buying more models.

This is what brilliant really looks like people.  I so wish I had thought of this before coming up with a 6+ color-coding system to differentiate squads and obsessions.

To be honest I only thought of it when cutting all the unused bits off my raider and venom sprues and seeing the dozens of flags I had, now if I could just think of a way of representing their combat drugs do I dont forget every game Laughing
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COMMORRAGH TACTICA

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