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Devilogical
Sybarite
Devilogical

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PostSubject: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 26 2019, 12:50

Have anyone used this 'detachment' from our codex? When you pick up several patrol detachments to get bonus CP points.
I mean the maximum of six patrol detachments to get 8CP. Is there any point to do so or it`s simple better to go regular battalion\brigade etc?

We are planning big event in the middle of April, so i`m facing some troubles with this desigion Crying or Very sad .
Any advices?

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Vailex
Slave
Vailex

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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 26 2019, 13:26

It was interesting when the codex first came out but since they upped the CP on battalions it is largely pointless now. They could easily fix it with an errata or FAQ but we have been a bit overlooked lately. Play it for fun but don't plan on it being effective in a tournament.
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Nogrim
Kabalite Warrior
Nogrim

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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 26 2019, 16:10

the problem i see with it is it doesnt get an exception to the three detachment limits most tournaments do. if it for example got something like for this configuration 3 patrols count as a single detachment would make it useful.

now that we have obsessions we can't even soup our own faction without handicapping ourselves.
i mean it really does need to get faq'd imho.
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AzraeI
Sybarite
AzraeI

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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 26 2019, 16:14

I just see it that way: you have to spend the points for one additional hq choice and lose 1 cp
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Squidmaster
Klaivex
Squidmaster

Posts : 2012
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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 27 2019, 09:55

I play in groups that always do matched play, even for casual play. We also tend to keep to generally accepted rules like the rule of three.
So at three Detachments, as you'll find in most tournaments, the Raiding Party is a bit........meh.
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Gelmir
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 27 2019, 12:36

My problem with the raiding party is that first of all it doesn't give you the CP that a battalion gets you, and secondly it doesn't let my cult patrol use more than 3 fast attack slots. I prefer an outrider for my cult. That together with a kabal battalions is 2 cp more than the raiding party gets me.

However, the 3 detachment limit is not a rule, merely a suggestion. Most tournaments do use it as a rule, but in your local group it might not be a problem to have more than 3.

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Soulless Samurai
Wych
Soulless Samurai

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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 27 2019, 12:59

The issue is that the Patrol is one of the worst detachments (especially for us). And rather than gaining extra benefit from including them, we actually lose out.

For a start, most places limit you to 3 Detachments, and the Raiding Party (or whatever it's called) wasn't made an exception to this. Hence, if you use it, you can't include any other detachments. This means that you can get - at most - 4CPs from your detachment choices.

In contrast, a regular army can get 5CPs from a Battalion alone, whilst still having 2 more detachments to play with.

Second, Patrols are based around HQs and Troops - which are among the worst units in our army. Our HQs are absolute garbage (has anyone ever taken more of them than were mandatory?), and our troops are just mediocre. Not bad per se, but again it's rarely worth taking more of them than you have to.

However, when it comes to our heavy-hitters - Grotesques, Talos, Ravagers, Razorwings; Patrols have barely any slots. If you take one Patrol each of Kabal, Coven and Cult (as was clearly the intention), then you're limited to 2 Ravagers, 2 units of Grotesques, 2 Talos etc. And if you want to double up by taking 2 Kabal or Coven Patrols, then there is 0 benefit to taking the Raiding Party at all over a Battalion. It gives you more CPs whilst also allowing you to take an Air Wing, Allies, or even a second Battalion.


The whole idea of these mini-detachments was clearly inspired by the unique Corsair detachment in 7th edition. However, the difference is that Corsairs had access to exceptional troops and HQs that cost as little as 35pts.

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TheBaconPope
Wych
TheBaconPope

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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 27 2019, 16:02

Even when Battalions were 3CP, it was a rule that forced you sink ever more points into the pit we call our HQs, while limiting your available Force Org slots to keep you from specializing, while locking you out of the possibilities of allies, and limiting you to  7CPs max, which tend to vanish very, very fast.

It needs a rework from the ground up before it can even enter into the sphere of possibility for me. But, with the rules support we've been getting, it'll be just another rule that sits completely unused, like most of the Coven tactics.

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dumpeal
Hekatrix
dumpeal

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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 27 2019, 16:15

If they were not restricted by the rule of 3, I would use it. I'd love to be able to field different kabal/cults without and I love the concept of different shards teaming together for a raid.
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 27 2019, 16:28

I don't mind the idea behind the Raiding Force but there needs to be an upside to using it. At the moment, there simply is no good reason to use it.

As has been suggested already, make it 'counts as' a battalion (ie single detachment, +5CP) made up of 3-6 patrol detachments. There's an HQ tax but it gives you a nice amount of flexibility without falling foul of the 3 detachment limit that is enforced in most settings.

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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 27 2019, 17:58

The simple fact that the rule says you get 8 CP for 6 patrol detachments, while you are never actually allowed 6 detachments shows how much thought was put in the Raiding Party rule.

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Burnage
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 27 2019, 19:03

@Gelmir wrote:
The simple fact that the rule says you get 8 CP for 6 patrol detachments, while you are never actually allowed 6 detachments shows how much thought was put in the Raiding Party rule.

The three detachment limit isn't actually a rule, in fairness. It's just a guideline that virtually everyone follows.
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krayd
Wych
krayd

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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 27 2019, 20:18

I'd be fine with it if a 3 patrol raider party granted 2 more points than a battalion (i.e. 7 CP), so it would be the CP equivalent of taking a battalion + 2 of vanguard/spearhead/outrider, but without as much of an HQ tax.
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Gelmir
Hellion
Gelmir

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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 27 2019, 21:44

I think that might be too much. If 3 patrols would count as 1 battalion, and therefore get you 5 CP, it's already a really good deal because it allows us to benefit from 3 obsessions. Asking for 2 more CP seems kind of greedy.

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sekac
Kabalite Warrior
sekac

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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2019, 04:39

@Gelmir wrote:
I think that might be too much. If 3 patrols would count as 1 battalion, and therefore get you 5 CP, it's already a really good deal because it allows us to benefit from 3 obsessions. Asking for 2 more CP seems kind of greedy.

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1 CP, not 2. Also, benefitting from multiple obsessions doesn't necessarily make the army better. It just means you can do more things. Some obsessions are force multipliers that get more and more powerful the more you include of that detachment.

Compare Kabal of the Black Heart to Kabal of Flayed Skull for instance. While the added defense for vehicles is nice with Black Heart, it's rarely game altering. Treating the  PfP as 1 turn higher is next to meaningless, because kabalite warriors don't use PfP well. Black Heart's power is in their warlord trait, relic, and stratagem, so it doesn't really matter how much you include.

Kabal of the Flayed Skull, on the other hand, rewards you more and more, the more you include. Having a mix of ravagers, venoms, raiders, flyers, and embarked troops all ignoring cover and moving extra fast. Each unit benefits more from that obsession than those same units in BH would.

Prophets of Flesh is the same way. Taking a unit of grotesques with 4+ invuls is good. Taking several units like that and multiple talos as well is even better. Yet you'll have a hard time fitting all that into a raiding party.

3 different obsessions grants flexibily, which is nice. But each individual patrol is likely not maximizing the strength of that obsession. The epitome of the expression "jack of all trades, master of none."

Having a battalion of one obsession, and a outrider/spearhead/vanguard of another requires the same number of HQs, the same number of troops choices, 2 more CPs, and more than likely the opportunity to better use your obsessions.
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yellabelly
Sybarite
yellabelly

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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2019, 08:50

Except the idea isn't that you have to fit your entire army into a raiding party. If it counts as a battalion then it only uses one detachment slot. It allows you to take 2 battalions alongside it for 18CPs (+D3 for your PoF haemie) and gets around the rule of 3 and our lack of HQ choices. Two archons for a battalion and one in a raiding party. Same with cult and coven and removes the obligatory use of named characters to meet minimum requirements. Or if you really want loads of fast attack you add an outrider in alongside. It's a really easy and simple fix that solves a lot of issues.
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krayd
Wych
krayd

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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2019, 16:04

@Gelmir wrote:
I think that might be too much. If 3 patrols would count as 1 battalion, and therefore get you 5 CP, it's already a really good deal because it allows us to benefit from 3 obsessions. Asking for 2 more CP seems kind of greedy.


It wouldn't be too much, and this is why: If you're using a raiding party to benefit from 3 obsessions, then you can't min-max the units in a way that you might be inclined to in other detachments. There are only 2 heavy support slots per detachment, so that means only 2 ravagers for your kabal third, and 2 units of talos for your coven third. In a competitive environment, this is a drawback, so it should even out with the ability to fit more variation into your army.

Besides, it's not like obsessions overlap. Your kabal isn't going to benefit from part of your army getting a non-kabal obsession, for example.
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sekac
Kabalite Warrior
sekac

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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2019, 16:37

@yellabelly wrote:
Except the idea isn't that you have to fit your entire army into a raiding party. If it counts as a battalion then it only uses one detachment slot. It allows you to take 2 battalions alongside it for 18CPs (+D3 for your PoF haemie) and gets around the rule of 3 and our lack of HQ choices. Two archons for a battalion and one in a raiding party. Same with cult and coven and removes the obligatory use of named characters to meet minimum requirements. Or if you really want loads of fast attack you add an outrider in alongside. It's a really easy and simple fix that solves a lot of issues.

It sounds like you think we disagree, but I'm not sure how you arrived on that conclusion or where you think we disagree.

Gelmir was expressing his concerns with your proposed fix and I was addressing his concerns (thus, why I quoted him). He mistakenly thought counting the Raiding Force counting as a battalion would be a an extra 2 CPs, and I corrected that misunderstanding.

His second point was that the Raiding Force is already very powerful because it allows you to field 3 obsessions. I spent the rest of my post addressing that point. 3 obsessions in one list sounds powerful but isn't necessarily more powerful than a list with 1 or 2. It depends on the obsessions selected and the ability to optimize them.

Was there something we do disagree on, or did you just misunderstand what I was saying?
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krayd
Wych
krayd

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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2019, 17:06

*I* suggested that a Raiding Force be counted as 2 more CP.

1 CP would be okay, I guess, but I still wouldn't see it as a compelling reason to take it over a Battalion+Spearhead (which would amount to 1 CP more anyway, and I'd have enough room to add a cheap detachment of something else... like CW Eldar for psyker support).

My assumption is that a Raiding Party is not going to get counted as '1' detachment. So, if you're using a Raiding Party in a competitive setting, that's all you get. I don't think that 1 CP will counterbalance the drawback (namely, losing the ability to spam certain kinds of units, like I can using a more conventional detachment structure), so 2 CP might make it unquestionably worthwhile as an alternative.
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Burnage
Wych
Burnage

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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2019, 18:23

@krayd wrote:
My assumption is that a Raiding Party is not going to get counted as '1' detachment.

This is what really kills it, I think. I'm struggling to think of a number of command points that it could give which would simultaneously make it worth taking over something like a double Battalion while also wouldn't be ridiculously over the top for just three HQs and three Troops to unlock.


Last edited by Burnage on Thu Mar 28 2019, 19:11; edited 1 time in total
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Devilogical
Sybarite
Devilogical

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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2019, 18:48

Hmmm.
Interesting suggestions. I`ve just recently find out that battalion now gives us more points.
So yeah, probably better just go more battalions for CP.

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yellabelly
Sybarite
yellabelly

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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2019, 19:45

@sekac wrote:
@yellabelly wrote:
Except the idea isn't that you have to fit your entire army into a raiding party. If it counts as a battalion then it only uses one detachment slot. It allows you to take 2 battalions alongside it for 18CPs (+D3 for your PoF haemie) and gets around the rule of 3 and our lack of HQ choices. Two archons for a battalion and one in a raiding party. Same with cult and coven and removes the obligatory use of named characters to meet minimum requirements. Or if you really want loads of fast attack you add an outrider in alongside. It's a really easy and simple fix that solves a lot of issues.

It sounds like you think we disagree, but I'm not sure how you arrived on that conclusion or where you think we disagree.

Gelmir was expressing his concerns with your proposed fix and I was addressing his concerns (thus, why I quoted him). He mistakenly thought counting the Raiding Force counting as a battalion would be a an extra 2 CPs, and I corrected that misunderstanding.

His second point was that the Raiding Force is already very powerful because it allows you to field 3 obsessions. I spent the rest of my post addressing that point. 3 obsessions in one list sounds powerful but isn't necessarily more powerful than a list with 1 or 2. It depends on the obsessions selected and the ability to optimize them.

Was there something we do disagree on, or did you just misunderstand what I was saying?

I think a bit of misunderstanding on both sides! My reply was directly below yours, but not in response to you alone. Krayd had earlier suggested putting Raiding Party at 7CPs. Depending on if Raiding Party gets a rules change I think that would be too much or too little. If Raiding Party stays as a 3 detachment thing, 7 CPs won't make it viable. It would need to be much higher, as you are giving up way to much building your army from 3 little patrols. It just doesn't ever work in that format in my opinion.

If it got changed to a "counts as" battalion, or you can combine the 3 patrols into a single detachment, that's a whole new ball game. My preference would be the ease of "counts as" battalion as it will always remain inline with detachment changes, and not need GW to get round to FAQing our little niche detachment at some point to make it relevant again. Then it opens up access to all 3 factions for relatively little expense and at the same CPs as a battalion offers good value IMO. The extra expense of 3 HQs to gain the flexibility of adding in some cult, coven or kabal without committing to a full battalion or single CP specialist detachment is worthwhile I think. You can still flesh out any of the 3 factions with your other 2 detachments that you are now able to take alongside.

It isn't going to be right for everyone of course, and if you run allies your probably going to want two full battalions to unlock enough heavy slots for ravagers and talos or whatever else. I really think that one change would actually give it a place in our army and make it properly viable as *another* option to use.

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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2019, 22:51

Wow, it seems I created a whole series of misunderstandings. Let me clarify...
I meant that the 7 CP for a Raiding Party would be too much, assuming Krayd meant this in addition to it counting as 1 detachment. This, because aside from Cult, Kabal AND Coven, you still get to use 2 more, (like maybe both Harlequins and a Craftworld detachment), and it would still be legal for tournaments allowing 3 detachments max.
However, if Krayd meant the 7 points instead of it counting as 1 detachment, then I agree this wouldn't make it interesting. We have to give up too much to use a Raiding Party with the current rule, and only getting more CP won't fix that. You can polish a turd all you want, it will still be a turd.

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krayd
Wych
krayd

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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 29 2019, 13:46

Yes, if it were allowed to count as 1 detachment, I think that simply giving it the same CP value as a battalion would be sufficient. Otherwise, i would want more CP to *maybe* make it worthwhile, and not just 1 more CP.

The assumption is, of course, that it will not be counted as 1 detachment, as GW has already stated that they don't feel the need to make that ruling, as independent tourney organizations can make their own call in that regard, but I don't see any inclination on the part of ITC (or any other organization) to make that call. So it will likely stay as-is.
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Lord Asvaldir
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Lord Asvaldir

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PostSubject: Re: Raider party   Raider party I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 29 2019, 14:03

I think a decent way to balance Raiding Force would be it just gives you 2CP per patrol detachments you take, though with a rule that you must take at least 3 patrol detachments. Then to deal with rule of 3, each 3 patrols would count as one detachment. That gives you 6cp for the standard raiding force, but doesn't force you to take another whole 3 patrols to double that CP, you could take 4 patrols for 8cp.

Not likely to change though, and as long as the rule of 3 remains a very widely used rule by many, raiding force remains useless, not to mention it needs to give at least as many cp as a battalion.

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