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omkara
Kabalite Warrior
omkara

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PostSubject: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 15 2019, 12:27

Apparently aura's can't used when a unit is technically not present on the table, which I can understand when it's a unit that sits within a closed vehicle. However, with an open-topped vehicle such as a Raider with clear view into what's inside of the Raider's and all units within the Raider being able to shoot from the Raider, I find it very hard to believe that a Vexator Mask wouldn't be visible for enemies that are standing within the required 6"

So regardless of my personal opinion on lack of logic in this case (allthough stubborn as I can be, I'm open to an alternative potentially more logical view to my own point), is in fact true that I cannot use the Vexator Mask when my Haemonculus still is on board the Raider?

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 15 2019, 12:29

True
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omkara
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 15 2019, 12:45

@Myrvn wrote:
True

That makes me a sad Haemonculus Razz

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 15 2019, 13:00

Eh. I like the Ham being outside for the T aura as well. It works fine I think.
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Serpent Fly
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 15 2019, 13:06

I agree with the OP that it is ilogical. Our army is designed to work great riding in open topped transports. It's quite immersion breaking when the leaders of said army are running on foot behind lightning fast skimmers shouting "you can do it", in order take advantage of their aura buffs. Buffs that are so important to use in 8th to stay competitive. My Flayed skull Dracon should be able to buff my ravagers from the deck of her venom and not muddy her feet in the dirt...
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omkara
Kabalite Warrior
omkara

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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 15 2019, 16:03

@Serpent Fly wrote:
It's quite immersion breaking when the leaders of said army are running on foot behind lightning fast skimmers shouting "you can do it"

Great, now I can't unsee my Haemonculus running behind my units with pompoms screaming "you can do it" in the most cheerful of ways Laughing

Give me an S
Give me a U
Give me an F
Give me an F
Give me an E
Give me an R
Give me an I
Give me an N
Give me an G
Give me an I
Give me an S
Give me a G
Give me an R
Give me an E
Give me an A
Give me a T

Say it with me friends,

SUFFERING IS GREAT.

Well, guess I`ll have to quit W40k now.

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Da-Rock
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 15 2019, 16:26

I often wondered why they can shoot out, but no auras.  I think it comes down to....if the guys inside cannot be targeted then auras don't work.  If GW changed it they might do something tragic like make units targetable in an open topped, but they get cover etc.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 15 2019, 18:43

Now, I need to model an haemonculus with pompoms cheering his grots
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omkara
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 16 2019, 11:05

@dumpeal wrote:
Now, I need to model an haemonculus with pompoms cheering his grots


lol!

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omkara
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 16 2019, 11:06

@Da-Rock wrote:
I often wondered why they can shoot out, but no auras.  I think it comes down to....if the guys inside cannot be targeted then auras don't work.  If GW changed it they might do something tragic like make units targetable in an open topped, but they get cover etc.

I'd love this. Sounds reasonable and a bit more realistic. I know it's a game based heavily on fantasy, but I always like a bit of logic in my games.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 16 2019, 13:56

@omkara wrote:
@Da-Rock wrote:
I often wondered why they can shoot out, but no auras.  I think it comes down to....if the guys inside cannot be targeted then auras don't work.  If GW changed it they might do something tragic like make units targetable in an open topped, but they get cover etc.

I'd love this. Sounds reasonable and a bit more realistic. I know it's a game based heavily on fantasy, but I always like a bit of logic in my games.

Meh. I'll happily trade not being able to use auras out of open-topped transports for the removal of flamers being the silver bullet to open topped transports (which hurt 3 armies badly and nobody else cared) of 6th and 7th.

Realistic game design is good, balanced game design is much better.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 17 2019, 18:39

@sekac wrote:
@omkara wrote:
@Da-Rock wrote:
I often wondered why they can shoot out, but no auras.  I think it comes down to....if the guys inside cannot be targeted then auras don't work.  If GW changed it they might do something tragic like make units targetable in an open topped, but they get cover etc.

I'd love this. Sounds reasonable and a bit more realistic. I know it's a game based heavily on fantasy, but I always like a bit of logic in my games.

Meh. I'll happily trade not being able to use auras out of open-topped transports for the removal of flamers being the silver bullet to open topped transports (which hurt 3 armies badly and nobody else cared) of 6th and 7th.

Realistic game design is good, balanced game design is much better.

Agreed. The way that flamers absolutely killed us in 6e and 7e was an absolute nightmare and if this is the trade off to get rid of that then I'll live with it.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 17 2019, 20:36

@Serpent Fly wrote:
I agree with the OP that it is ilogical. Our army is designed to work great riding in open topped transports. It's quite immersion breaking when the leaders of said army are running on foot behind lightning fast skimmers shouting "you can do it", in order take advantage of their aura buffs. Buffs that are so important to use in 8th to stay competitive. My Flayed skull Dracon should be able to buff my ravagers from the deck of her venom and not muddy her feet in the dirt...

No, no, it's fine. Just give him Writ of the Living Muse and sit back as your Archon recites Vect's poetry to everyone nearby.

I mean, you'd think that one of the most advanced races in the universe might have heard of this state-of-the-art technology code-named 'radios', but apparently not. Or maybe all the Raider pilots are so sick of Vect's poetry that they all turn off their radios before the battle starts, so the Archon is forced to just yell it out to anyone nearby. Kinda sad, really.

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Archon_91
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 18 2019, 19:58

Honestly I wish our army was a load more stealth based than it currently is ... You know that whole thing in our story of no one sees a raiding force coming before it's far past to late, in that sense I can see why we don't use radios as it would ruin the surprise if any transmissions were intercepted, and each member if the raiding party is supposed to know the plan so we'll they don't need to be told what to do to execute it perfectly ...
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Axmar
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 09:30

Actually, this discussion is fun, but knowing Archons have an 8 inch movement and usually reroll advances, they can easily catch up with the ravagers so I think using auras and relics from transports would make the game too complex. I've never had any problem with that. Of course, being on the ground is an issue when there's a Solitaire Blitzing towards you and charge Very Happy , but that's rare

For the haemonculus, they can footslog just fine, because you wouldn't pay for a transport to protect them. You want them to be near grotesques or talos, which can't use transports (well grotesques can, but ...) So it's fine to have them on the ground

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 10:27

@Axmar wrote:
Actually, this discussion is fun, but knowing Archons have an 8 inch movement and usually reroll advances, they can easily catch up with the ravagers

Yep. I mean, who'd want their army leader to do anything outside of jogging sweatily behind his gunboats?

Also, this really sounds like a model that needs to cost ~75pts.

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Serpent Fly
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2019, 23:56

But my ravagers don't want to be moving 9-14" when they can move 17" normally (Flayed skull). When you start to restrict their movement to stay with the running shouting dracon that's how they get out of position and killed. We have to sacrifice the thing our army is designed for (speed) for the sake of rerolls. And whilst I'd like to just not bother with the rerolls they become more essential when all your opponents are getting them one way or another.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 00:03

The thing is, though, the Archon really shouldn't be sitting at the back buffing Ravagers in the first place.

it just speaks of awful design.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 00:38

Why not? That's how some Archons are going to operate. Ranged precision; viewing the destruction and carnage among their foes as a panorama rather than a close-up. They no doubt consider themselves the pointillists of slaughter.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 00:55

@Jimsolo wrote:
Why not? That's how some Archons are going to operate. Ranged precision; viewing the destruction and carnage among their foes as a panorama rather than a close-up. They no doubt consider themselves the pointillists of slaughter.

I can understand an Archon watching the battle from a Venom or Raider alongside the Ravager.
I can understand an Archon watching the battle from a Jetbike, Skyboard or Wings alongside the Ravager (though apparently I am the only one).
I can understand an Archon watching the battle from the deck of the Ravager itself.

I have trouble understanding an Archon who wants to watch the battle from the worst possible vantage point and which leaves him jogging frantically behind the Ravagers whenever they move. And (going by the lore anyway), they rarely ever stop moving.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 01:59

If our auras worked from inside vehicles, you'd definitely see that happening, but game balance has required us to sacrifice that.

Although Ravagers can fly around the battlefield at breakneck speed, dispensing death at a whim, they can also hover languidly, lancing and disintegrating enemies who are too far away (and too locked up by closer threats) to do anything about it. A buffing Archon isn't unreasonable in that situation.

(This is how I use my Reapers, incidentally, although with a haemonculus rather than an Archon)
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Serpent Fly
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 06:03

It comes back to a lack of options for our HQs. I agree a
With Soulless Samurai about Archons relaxing on a venom or raider viewing the battle they orchestrated. But not walking! You wouldn't see much from the ground anyway, just dust and debris and your own units zooming away from you to the action. I also do agree with Jimsolo that game balance (or more likely game simplicity) is the reason our abilities don't work in transports. But like Soulless Samurai said, if we could take wings, jetbikes, or skyboards for our HQs like our craftworld cousins this wouldn't be an issue (no skyboards for eldar but you know what I mean).
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 09:52

@Jimsolo wrote:
If our auras worked from inside vehicles, you'd definitely see that happening, but game balance has required us to sacrifice that.

I disagree. Lazy and thoughtless design has required us to sacrifice that.

The Archon could have easily been given an ability that worked from a transport but instead GW went with the laziest possible option, even thought it didn't fit the army at all.

@Jimsolo wrote:

Although Ravagers can fly around the battlefield at breakneck speed, dispensing death at a whim, they can also hover languidly, lancing and disintegrating enemies who are too far away (and too locked up by closer threats) to do anything about it. A buffing Archon isn't unreasonable in that situation.

I mean, from a fluff perspective, I'm still struggling to understand why the Archon would choose to be on the ground - rather than in his own transport.

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Serpent Fly
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2019, 10:08

This. And yes from a fluff perspective it makes 0 sense
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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle   Using a Vexator Mask from an Open Topped Vehicle I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2019, 02:39

oooook.

Back to the question at hand LOL.

Is the vexator mask actually an aura? I say no. you have to pick a specific target within a specific range.

It is therefore more of a weapon (which is usable from inside the venom)

Yes?

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