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Soulless Samurai
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Soulless Samurai

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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 22 2019, 16:33

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:

@Souless Samurai, I don't think our characters are completely abysmal. With relics and warlord traits you can make some pretty solid beatstick or utility characters, the problem is once you use up your relic/trait options, the base characters are pretty lackluster.

Well, firstly, that's a big part of the issue. A character shouldn't need Relics or Warlord traits to be worth a damn. Yet ours seem to have been designed with the assumption that they'll all have a relic and warlord trait each.

The thing is, though, even with Relics and Warlord traits, they're mediocre at best.

You talk about beatsticks but they're really not. 7 S4 AP-2 Dd3 attacks are hardly anything to write home about (though GW designers apparently thought they were so strong as to require a drawback). Nor are 4 attacks with what amounts to a basic Power Fist.

Utility? We've got, what, 2 utility relics? And one of them is tied to a specific subfaction HQ in a specific sub-subfaction.

My point is, a Succubus shouldn't need a Relic weapon just to actually fulfil her role as a melee character. A Haemonculus shouldn't need to have a Vexator Mask or Helm of Spite in order to provide much-needed utility.

And Archons are absolute garbage no matter what you equip them with. It speaks volumes that the best use of an ostensibly melee character is to give him as little equipment as possible, sit him in the middle of 3 Ravagers and hope that he never sees melee.


I find myself wishing that DE were closer to their Dark Elf counterparts (prior to AoS, a least). At least they were allowed magic.


@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
A slight buff on all our weapons would really do the trick, perhaps 2 damage and +3 strength on glaives, give the venom blade mortal wounds on 6s, maybe make the agonizer 2 damage or +3 to wound, and the huskblade just +2 strength.

Something along those lines would definitely help. Though I think weapons are only one problem for our HQs. And, honestly, not even the biggest one. Even if you improve them, you've still got other issues:
- The Archon is badly overpriced (worth less than a Cannoness but costs 25pts more).
- The Archon's Shadowfield is terrible and he's no longer even allowed to pick a 4++ instead.
- In spite of being the army leader, the Archon is able to buff only a tine fraction of the army.
- In spite of being the army leader, the Archon is able to buff only a tine fraction of the army.
- The Archon and Succubus are both terrible as support heroes. The Succubus is unable to keep up with Reavers, Hellions or Beasts (and her aura doesn't work on the latter anyway), and if she rides in a transport with Wyches then she prevents either a second Wych weapon or a second Hekatrix. The Archon, meanwhile, is intended to support units that want to fire from transports, yet his aura doesn't work in, into, or out of transports. What's more, he has 0 mobility options to ride alongside transports and if he rides with a squad then he prevents them from taking both a second special and a heavy weapon. Finally, his aura is entirely redundant with his own Court.
- Still no mobility options for any HQ. So our supposedly fast army actually has among the slowest HQs in the game.

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 22 2019, 18:53

In all my casual games I run a Party Boat of two Archons in a Venom, because it's physically painful to watch the Overlords of my army jog across the board. Not once has this 227-261 point waste of space been a priority target for my opponent. I think it speaks for itself that my opponents, regardless of tactics, playstyle, or army, consider five guys with a meltagun more dangerous than their commanders.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 22 2019, 21:28

@Soulless Samurai wrote:

Well, firstly, that's a big part of the issue. A character shouldn't need Relics or Warlord traits to be worth a damn. Yet ours seem to have been designed with the assumption that they'll all have a relic and warlord trait each.

Fair enough, that is completely true.
@Soulless Samurai wrote:

You talk about beatsticks but they're really not. 7 S4 AP-2 Dd3 attacks are hardly anything to write home about (though GW designers apparently thought they were so strong as to require a drawback). Nor are 4 attacks with what amounts to a basic Power Fist.

Still disagree. Sure it's not Guilliman level beatstick, but the djinn blade archon with the hatred eternal trait has time and again done well for me. He's made his 86pts back often, even though yes archons should cost less. Without the djinn blade and a warlord trait though, yeah you're right archons completely suck.

@Soulless Samurai wrote:

Utility? We've got, what, 2 utility relics? And one of them is tied to a specific subfaction HQ in a specific sub-subfaction.
My point is, a Succubus shouldn't need a Relic weapon just to actually fulfil her role as a melee character. A Haemonculus shouldn't need to have a Vexator Mask or Helm of Spite in order to provide much-needed utility.

I mean honestly Prophets of Flesh is so much better than the other covens it's hardly a drawback that the vexator mask is faction specific, plus that artifact has been a major game winner for me. That being said, yeah a succubus and a heamoculus shouldn't need relics to be good.

Overall Souless yeah I can't deny our characters are lackluster and overpriced, and I doubt you'll meet a single Dark Eldar player who doesn't lament the lack of a winged, jet bike or skyboard character option, when pretty much every other army has some sort of mount/mobility choice. The only point where I do disagree is that we can make some reasonably decent characters with traits/relics. Not amazing, but not garbage. Doesn't excuse that our characters need improvement, and in fact it's the one thing I want most for DE now.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 22 2019, 21:53

I think the single biggest indictment against our current batch of HQs is this question:

How many times have you considered running a Supreme Command Detachment?
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 23 2019, 00:00

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Still disagree. Sure it's not Guilliman level beatstick, but the djinn blade archon with the hatred eternal trait has time and again done well for me. He's made his 86pts back often, even though yes archons should cost less. Without the djinn blade and a warlord trait though, yeah you're right archons completely suck.

I suppose it depends how you define it.

If I use a relic *and* a warlord trait just to improve one of my model's combat abilities, I generally expect them to be pretty damn threatening in combat.

But the Archon feels like he'd need those things just be worth his cost.


@Lord Asvaldir wrote:

I mean honestly Prophets of Flesh is so much better than the other covens it's hardly a drawback that the vexator mask is faction specific, plus that artifact has been a major game winner for me.

Perhaps, but surely having the Vexator mask in Prophets of Flesh just makes it even more of an auto-pick?


@Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Overall Souless yeah I can't deny our characters are lackluster and overpriced, and I doubt you'll meet a single Dark Eldar player who doesn't lament the lack of a winged, jet bike or skyboard character option, when pretty much every other army has some sort of mount/mobility choice. The only point where I do disagree is that we can make some reasonably decent characters with traits/relics. Not amazing, but not garbage. Doesn't excuse that our characters need improvement, and in fact it's the one thing I want most for DE now.

I don't disagree with this.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 23 2019, 06:20

Since nobody else has mentioned these, I'll throw in:

Bring back Trueborn and Bloodbrides. Having elite squads with a minimum squad size of 4 would really help to alleviate the foot slogging HQ issues brought up above.

Increase transport capacity of raiders to 11. There's all kinds of cool perches and whatnot. Given that our troop squads are all rewarded with at least 1 more weapon at 10 models, allowing them to do that AND be accompanied by their leader would be nice.

Make beastmasters an HQ with a small increase in stats. Make 4 beast squads count as a single FA choice.
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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 23 2019, 10:28

I don't think our HQ's themselves need change. If the transportation problem and the open-topped aura problem would be solved, our HQ's are actually worth their points, since compared to other factions we have quite cheap HQ's. Not counting Drazar though, he's not even worth half his pointcost...

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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 23 2019, 13:42

I want a Ynnari codex so that they can price units as Ynnari separately similar to how GSC and Nid genestealers are different costs. Prevent them from having to nerf individual codices for the sake of Ynnari.

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 23 2019, 15:09

Quote :
I want a Ynnari codex so that they can price units as Ynnari separately similar to how GSC and Nid genestealers are different costs. Prevent them from having to nerf individual codices for the sake of Ynnari.

I've been advocating this for a while now. You can't appropriately cost units when one can advance and shoot with anything but heavy weapons, and the other can double their damage output

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GreyArea
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 24 2019, 09:57

I agree with a lot of what's been said.

1) Mobility options (bikes, boards and/or wings) for HQs and new HQ choices in some form or another (possibly some cool characters).

2) Complete overhaul of the rules for incubi and draz. As well as a buff to hellions in some form. I think making incubi able to dice primaris marines and characters with a D2 weapon would be a good start.

3) Tweaking of the never competitive obsessions like the 2 covens not PoF, obsidian rose and poison tongue.

4) Give liquifiers, heat lance's, hexrifles and splinter cannons a niche. A straight buff to liquifiers and splinter cannons stats, make heat lances an actually worthwhile close range tank buster, and make the hex able to oneshot small buff HQs like guard.

5) Replace finecast models with plastic and sell an upgrade pack for weapons or something. It's particularly annoying kitting out scourge the way I want.

6) Increase the cps for raiding party to at least make it useable in fun games

I think the first on the list is my priority.
I'm a little unsure if I should only pick one or two things or ask for the full list in the survey. What are people's thoughts?

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 24 2019, 10:03

By the way, does anyone know when this big survey is taking place?

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 24 2019, 14:30

Quote :
By the way, does anyone know when this big survey is taking place?

"Soon." Which by GW's definition is anywhere between today and five minutes before the heat death of the universe
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Da-Rock
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 18 2019, 00:14

I took the survey for the first time ever. I know if enough people respond about specific stuff they listen, but most of what many want here is never going to be in front of the developers eyes.

I pushed for two things:

1. Cost reduction

2. For Da British to act like Microsoft and buy someone else's "Already Awesome" Army Builder software and stamp Games Workshop over it......FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 18 2019, 00:19

One of the overwhelming comments I've seen mentioned is prices. Just about everyone in my local store complained about cost on the survey, and it's a sentiment I've seen just about everywhere else.

But with GW making record profits, I doubt they'll be cutting into their margins.

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Da-Rock
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 18 2019, 00:46

I agree, the price won't change. The only thing I can see them doing is messing with starter kits so that people can get hooked....you know, like a dime bag from a drug dealer for free to get the addiction going. :-)
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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 18 2019, 11:37

Yes good ideas and all but please give us freaking Vect as an hq or Lord of War..!
Seriously, correct me if I'm wrong but we have to be the only faction that have an active leader (in the fluff) who is not represented on the tabletop... He's not missing he's not on an active quest in the corner of the galaxy he's not dead he's frak there resurrected in all his glory and we get freaking worthless drazhar instead...
OK rant over...
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 18 2019, 11:54

I'd settle for having ordinary HQ choices that are actually worth a damn.

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Sarcron
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 18 2019, 19:07

Either or, getting HQs is generally something we all want.

My secondary concern, was the damn kits themselves. Seriously.

As someone who has recently converted from tyranids to these dark chaps, it it beyond frustrating to try to kit some kabs a certain way, only no, there's actually not the parts for two blasters, you can't make two sybarites with two agonisers or power swords or blast pistol or splinter pistols.

I look at getting some wyches, or scourges, or even a basic archon, haem, or succubus. Nope.
They do not come with every option you can give them.

And while it was fun putting a wrack electro-corrosive whip onto my haemonculus, it doesn't change that I had to in the first place.

I guess that's my rant over as well.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 18 2019, 19:14

@Sarcron wrote:
Either or, getting HQs is generally something we all want.

My secondary concern, was the damn kits themselves. Seriously.

As someone who has recently converted from tyranids to these dark chaps, it it beyond frustrating to try to kit some kabs a certain way, only no, there's actually not the parts for two blasters, you can't make two sybarites with two agonisers or power swords or blast pistol or splinter pistols.

I look at getting some wyches, or scourges, or even a basic archon, haem, or succubus. Nope.
They do not come with every option you can give them.

And while it was fun putting a wrack electro-corrosive whip onto my haemonculus, it doesn't change that I had to in the first place.

I guess that's my rant over as well.

I agree about kits.

At the same time, I'd be wary of complaining about it because GW are the sort who'd go - "Okay then, we'll just remove those options altogether. Can't complain about models not coming with all available options if there are no options."

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 18 2019, 20:35

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Sarcron wrote:
Either or, getting HQs is generally something we all want.

My secondary concern, was the damn kits themselves. Seriously.

As someone who has recently converted from tyranids to these dark chaps, it it beyond frustrating to try to kit some kabs a certain way, only no, there's actually not the parts for two blasters, you can't make two sybarites with two agonisers or power swords or blast pistol or splinter pistols.

I look at getting some wyches, or scourges, or even a basic archon, haem, or succubus. Nope.
They do not come with every option you can give them.

And while it was fun putting a wrack electro-corrosive whip onto my haemonculus, it doesn't change that I had to in the first place.

I guess that's my rant over as well.

I agree about kits.

At the same time, I'd be wary of complaining about it because GW are the sort who'd go - "Okay then, we'll just remove those options altogether. Can't complain about models not coming with all available options if there are no options."

I would be so mad if GW decided to restrict our HQs just to the wargear options modelled on their current kits. I've got a strong suspicion that they wanted to before they realised exactly how lackluster that would leave our Codex looking.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 18 2019, 20:53

They could also go the other way and do what they do with t'au ... Give us all the options but jack the price of our kits way up ... You want scourge to have all their weapons choices in the kit? Ok that'll be another sprew and another 15 units of currency added onto the price ... ( Maybe not that extreme but the point remains )
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 18 2019, 21:30

I'm really surprised that GW hasn't gotten into the upgrade sprue market. Sell a small sprue of five of the more common options for ~$10, start printing money.

It'd have the added benefit of taking out one of third party's largest sources of income to boot.

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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 19 2019, 10:26

I asked for;
- Drazhar Review, he costs the same as Kharn for less attacks, 1d vs d3 and has less of an invul. Just give him d3 damage and knock 30pts off.
- Incubi/Onslaught Review, onslaught should work on 6+ not unmodified 6s so that incubi and drazhar can work together to become blenders and give all incubi the klaivex rule to do 2d on 6s.
- Archon with Scourge Wings, comes with Ghostplate Armour aswell after shadowfield falls off (4+/6++).
- Succubus on Jetbike, just cuz.
- Remove the -1 to hit on succubus glaives, give her 1 more attacks, make the glaive 2D

Theres a bunch of other stuff I'd like but it's not pressing.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 19 2019, 15:12

I asked for
-more than 1 generic HQ per subfaction
-Treat a raider party of 3 patrol as a single batalion
-Vect
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newtonEmma
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon May 20 2019, 16:18

It will be the same like as 2018
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