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Vultirnus
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PostSubject: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2019, 02:40

So I realize you pros might think this is a dumb question, but how do you guys deal with knights. Specifically I am running up against a Crusader knight regularly in an Astra Militarum army. I bring 3 ravagers with dark lances and a total of 6 talos with haywires (hopefully soon to be 9). I still cannot bring this this down. Blasting it from afar i seem to have trouble getting through his invulns. Up close even if the talosii manage to knock some wounds off of him he just stomps them.

Any advice?
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2019, 03:57

You seem to have the tools in your list to deal with a Knight without too much trouble. Are you running Urien and a Haemonculus with Vexator Mask along with your Talos? When your Talos make it in to combat with the Knight are you using the strat to reroll failed wounds and making sure Urien is letting you wound on fours and the Vexator is making the Knight swing last?If not then you’re not giving yourself the best odds of killing the Knight. When you shoot at it, are you using AoV to stop it from increasing its invulnerable save? Also DCs are probably a better bet on your Ravagers due to the much higher number of shots and flat two damage. If you’re doing all of the above and still struggling, sadly, the best advice I can give you would be to ally in CWE for access to Doom and Jinx. Best of luck to you!
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TavernerHedris
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2019, 08:36

Are Covens the only way to down a Knight? i got a few Knight players at my local but im new to the army and only got Cult and Kabal so far
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Lord Weston
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2019, 10:51

Haywire scourges are also worth a look
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2019, 12:53

If you don’t have Coven, you can still down a Knight with lots of blasters, disintegrator cannon, and haywire shots from Cult and Kabal. But since (most) Knights don’t get their Ion Shield invulnerable in close combat, it’s usually easier to deal with them that way.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2019, 17:20

Heat Lances on Talos, and then shove the Talos into combat with one near a Vexator Mask. Add in some long range harassment from a Voidraven Bomber with Void Lances for shots of opportunity.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2019, 19:02

I'd rather have haywire blasters over a heat lance, s6 with only +4 bs isn't going to get that many wounds through, while a haywire blaster is guaranteed to get a few wounds off a knight. I find softening a knight up with dissie cannons and haywire blasters, then charging in with some talos usually does the trick to finish one off.

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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2019, 19:11

Also, since you’re running six Talos, remember that that Knights can only fall back out of combat over INFANTRY models. Not monsters, vehicles, or bikes. So it’s possible to trap it in combat if you can get four Talos to surround it. Then use the Vexator and reroll wounds strat to drag it down (hopefully your first round of combat degrades it so when it swings back, it will be less effective.)
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Vultirnus
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2019, 19:22

@sweetbacon wrote:
Also, since you’re running six Talos, remember that that Knights can only fall back out of combat over INFANTRY models.  Not monsters, vehicles, or bikes.  So it’s possible to trap it in combat if you can get four Talos to surround it.  Then use the Vexator and reroll wounds strat to drag it down (hopefully your first round of combat degrades it so when it swings back, it will be less effective.)

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Sir I do believe you may have unlocked many doors for me. I didn't know the knights could only use the fall back rule on infantry!
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2019, 19:38

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
I'd rather have haywire blasters over a heat lance, s6 with only +4 bs isn't going to get that many wounds through, while a haywire blaster is guaranteed to get a few wounds off a knight. I find softening a knight up with dissie cannons and haywire blasters, then charging in with some talos usually does the trick to finish one off.

This is one of those situations where the math is lying. I've tried both and here's the gimmick. Haywire is okay against Knights, point for point they're more efficient than Heat Lances. However, Haywire is only good against vehicles, while Heat Lances can kill just about everything with the same level of efficiency. Characters, Knights, Character Knights, Terminators, Character Terminators, Flyers, Nurglings (don't undervalue this), Daemon Princes, the list goes on. Yeah, there's rotate ion shields, but that's not a guarantee to stop the Heat Lances from getting through. Also, when you sling 6 of the things in overwatch, you have a decent chance of getting one through, which can abruptly end an opponent's charge phase. These are outlier cases but there are *so many* outlier cases that they distort the results.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2019, 22:18

I ally in Skyweavers and Farseer, if they soup, i soup. Thats how i play.

I went to a tournament a couple weeks ago, killed 2 knight a turn, was stupidly easy.

As far as Mono DE? You need to just pound away at it over 2 turns.

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Sarcron
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 23 2019, 22:56

When we're talking about the talos' charging the knights, what weapons are you giving them? Ignoring the argument over heat lances and haywire. What works best for the other two weapons to give to talos'?

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 24 2019, 16:58

Most take macroscalpel/chainflails for most all-around usefulness - chainflails for hordes and macroscalps give S7 attacks vs. other things - S8 if you have Urien nearby.

However, if you specifically want to kit them out for fighting knights, you may want to try using the gauntlet for S8 attacks/S9 with Urien, though the -1 to hit makes that a bit less attractive of an option. I would suggest dual macroscalpels with Urien for maximum number of S8 attacks vs. knights.
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Elfric
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 28 2019, 01:17

Talos pain engines are an amazing counter to knights with the scalpel, flails, haywire blaster load out. I do find you need Urien and/Haemonculus to buff them but a squad of three shooting a knight and then charging can usually kill one. I played a game today with 5 pain engines and two ravagers with two raiders full of kabalites and blasters. He spent a couple of turns destroying the kabal element of my army which was a mistake because 5 pain engines (with also a cronos 're-rolling 1's to wound in the fight phase) destroyed the knights from turn 3 onward. I had two pain engines left at the end.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 28 2019, 15:19

3 talos equipped with fists/scalpels charging in with the torturers craft stratagem is probably one of the best units in our arsenal we have to counter knights. I'm not sure what the mathhammer is on if fists or dual scalpels is better, but personally I think I'd go for scalpels, with the extra attack, no -1 to hit penalty and a nice reliable 2 damage, with the reroll wounds stratagem wounding on 5s should be fine, or 4s if you have Urien.


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Lost Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 05 2019, 06:23

Hello,

I recently went against five knights, the big ones, not Armigers or whatnot and i won that game. We played a practice game for the biggest winter tournament here in Finland (Mael+Eternal) and altough i only had left an Archon and couple Warriors in the end of the game, i pulled out a 14-7 victory. I´m runnin this list at the moment for the tournament :

Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Drukhari)  Kabal of the Obsidian Rose

HQ
Archon : Blaster, Huskblade, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, The Armor of Misery,
Warlord : Hatred Eternal
Archon : Blaster, Huskblade

Troops
Kabalite Warriors 3x Kabalite Warrior, Kabalite Warrior with Blaster, Sybarite
Kabalite Warriors 3x Kabalite Warrior, Kabalite Warrior with Blaster, Sybarite
Kabalite Warriors 7x Kabalite Warrior, Kabalite Warrior with Blaster, Kabalite warrior with  Dark Lance, Sybarite

Heavy Support
Ravager 3 x Dark Lance

Dedicated Transport
Venom 2 x Splinter Cannon
Venom 2 x Splinter Cannon
Venom 2 x Splinter Cannon

Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) Prophets of the Flesh

HQ
Haemonculus : Hexrifle, Venom Blade

Elites
Grotesques x 7 (Monstrous Cleaver & Flesh Gauntlet)

Heavy Support
Talos x 2 (2 x Macro-Scalpel & 2x Haywire blaster)
Talos x 2 (2 x Macro-Scalpel & 2x Haywire blaster)
Talos        (2 x Macro-Scalpel & 2x Haywire blaster)

Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) : Kabal of the Black Heart

Flyer
Razorwing Jetfighter Twin splinter rifle,  2x Disintegrator cannon
Razorwing Jetfighter Twin splinter rifle,  2x Dark Lance
Razorwing Jetfighter Twin splinter rifle,  2x Dark Lance


I had the first turn and i FAILED to kill one Knight with ALL of the firepower. After that, i just concentrated all the FP to one Knight at the time and ignored the rest. I had to use Grots for object grabbers (loads of points in a unit wasted, but LOADS of points gathered) and just park them in his DZ. This was my first game against pure Knights (had face one or two in tournaments with IG soup) list and i actually found it easier, than Custodes (really struggling with these guys, another practice run today...). Full Knights list lack the object grabbing and that´s the key to victory (duh) and just surviving Wink. I had the planes take the Black heart, just to get FNP AND one time block the 3++ with Vect (didn´t need that in this game thou...). Nice point with the Talos and not been able to fall back, didn´t remember that, now i will for the tournament Smile

Summa summarum, just kill one at the time and stay alive.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 05 2019, 09:24

Grats on the win but I have to ask what on earth the Knights were doing? At the end of your first turn there were still 5 Knights on the table. By the end of their first turn your ravager and razorwings should have been toast and then it's just a mopping up exercise apart from the Taloi.

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 05 2019, 12:30

@Lost Vyper do you remeber which weapons he used on the knights?
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Lost Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 09 2019, 10:59

Couple of CC ones and three shooty ones i think. Yeah, main mistake was not to go for the fliers. I used Fire & Fade multiple times on the Ravager = kept him alive. One Knight was down to 5 wounds after the first round and i cut him down in the CC on his turn, even when he used the "knight can act as he has full wounds" strategem. I converted 5/6 Talos to have Haywire last fall and i am not so impressed still with that modification, whilst having played multiple tournament games/training games for the tournament...
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2019, 15:36

Man five knights, what size game was this? I don't think it was even possible to fit it more than 4 knights in a list at 2k.

I'm a fan of haywire blasters on talos, you shouldn't count on them to kill vehicles but it's a nice couple extra shots to throw mortal wounds on vehicles, and given the talos has +4 bs, or +5 if you advance it's night to have a weapon with a decent number of shots. Just gotta remember it's melee where the talos is really going to do its main damage anyway.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2019, 17:25

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Man five knights, what size game was this? I don't think it was even possible to fit it more than 4 knights in a list at 2k.

I'm a fan of haywire blasters on talos, you shouldn't count on them to kill vehicles but it's a nice couple extra shots to throw mortal wounds on vehicles, and given the talos has +4 bs, or +5 if you advance it's night to have a weapon with a decent number of shots. Just gotta remember it's melee where the talos is really going to do its main damage anyway.

lol, oh little one, knights are cheap... The Gallant is 350pts, the Errant is 390pts, its easy to have 5 in a 1850pt list, its better to have 4 tho with 2 mini knights.

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2019, 20:12

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Man five knights, what size game was this? I don't think it was even possible to fit it more than 4 knights in a list at 2k.

I'm a fan of haywire blasters on talos, you shouldn't count on them to kill vehicles but it's a nice couple extra shots to throw mortal wounds on vehicles, and given the talos has +4 bs, or +5 if you advance it's night to have a weapon with a decent number of shots. Just gotta remember it's melee where the talos is really going to do its main damage anyway.

lol, oh little one, knights are cheap... The Gallant is 350pts, the Errant is 390pts, its easy to have 5 in a 1850pt list, its better to have 4 tho with 2 mini knights.

you forgot 32 guardsmen
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2019, 20:40

@AzraeI wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Man five knights, what size game was this? I don't think it was even possible to fit it more than 4 knights in a list at 2k.

I'm a fan of haywire blasters on talos, you shouldn't count on them to kill vehicles but it's a nice couple extra shots to throw mortal wounds on vehicles, and given the talos has +4 bs, or +5 if you advance it's night to have a weapon with a decent number of shots. Just gotta remember it's melee where the talos is really going to do its main damage anyway.

lol, oh little one, knights are cheap... The Gallant is 350pts, the Errant is 390pts, its easy to have 5 in a 1850pt list, its better to have 4 tho with 2 mini knights.

you forgot 32 guardsmen

Yeah for allies, for sure, 5 knights and loyal 32....

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SERAFF
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 13 2019, 14:41

I really struggled against Mechs with 3 Knights. They wiped me out with their Endless fury and mortal wounds gatlings. They could even enable 2++ against shooting (4++ for warlord trait and +2 from 2 different stratagems).
But when I ran 6 Taloi under Urien and Vexator Haemy coupled with some Harlie bikeres, I smashed these knights without any trouble.

BTW guys, do you know how a single Detachment with 3 Knights could bring 9 CP? My opponent couldn't bring me a proof, but several players insisted it's true.

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Dealing with Knights I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 13 2019, 14:53

@SERAFF wrote:
I really struggled against Mechs with 3 Knights. They wiped me out with their Endless fury and mortal wounds gatlings. They could even enable 2++ against shooting (4++ for warlord trait and +2 from 2 different stratagems).
But when I ran 6 Taloi under Urien and Vexator Haemy coupled with some Harlie bikeres, I smashed these knights without any trouble.

BTW guys, do you know how a single Detachment with 3 Knights could bring 9 CP? My opponent couldn't bring me a proof, but several players insisted it's true.

ive read the knights codex and i dont think you can get the 2++, 3++ is the max
you can give the knight a relic that confers a 4++ plus rotate ion shield (3++) and a warlordtrait that gives +1 to saving throws (but excludes invulms)
i also dont know how youd get to 9 cp
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