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Archon Vitcus
Kabalite Warrior
Archon Vitcus

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PostSubject: Been a while    Fri Dec 14 2018, 15:25

So I've not had any experience with 8th and haven't had any games in well over a year and a half but I'm looking to get back into it after New Years most likely. I've been having a look over the forum and such but just want a general consensus and a place for my questions to be answered.

Trueborn with blasters still viable?
Reavers still good?
Kabalites over wyches or a mix of units?
Ravagers still our go to heavy support or do Reapers? and talos compete for the slot?
Venoms over raiders or a mix of both?
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Burnage
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Fri Dec 14 2018, 15:37

Trueborn with Blasters are sort of viable. They don't exist as a unit in our Codex any more, but you can still run them and they're still fine. My opinion on them is that it's much more effective to run standard Kabalites with a Blaster per squad.

I don't know if there's a consensus on Reavers. They're probably the best Wych Cult unit and they're very fast but I find that they don't do enough on the table to justify their inclusion.

Kabalites over Wyches, definitely.

Ravagers are excellent currently, especially armed with Disintegrator Cannons. Talos are also one of our strongest units but they don't compete for slots - I'll get to why in a moment.

Venom spam is very strong, although some people do prefer Raiders still. It's not common to see a mix of both in lists for one reason or another.

The biggest change that 8th edition has brought is that we're no longer "Dark Eldar" as a unified list. Instead, we've been broken up into three distinct factions - Kabals, Wych Cults and Haemonculus Covens. When you're building a list you'll almost certainly want to use detachments which consist solely of one of those three factions, which is why Ravagers and Talos are rarely competing for the same Heavy Support slots despite both being really good.

Despite this we're in a really good spot right now, and one of the go-to factions to complain about on the internet. It's hard to go wrong with us currently!
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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Fri Dec 14 2018, 18:29

Burnage is spot on.

Amplifying one point: the detachments that you have to choose from: Kabals, Wyches, Covens, are all viable, strong and interesting. You *can* build a list with multiple detachments, allowing you to build a detachment of Kabals and Coven, for example. We even get a small advantage if you can build a big army with all three.

Interestingly, our HQ are weak even though we're truly among the most competitive builds in all of 8th (to be determined with the VERY recent points adjustment across the board - except for DE...).

We don't have so much of an "infantry tax" so much as an "HQ tax" this codex.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Fri Dec 14 2018, 22:29

@Archon Vitcus wrote:
Trueborn with blasters still viable?

The issue with Trueborn is that they're now insanely expensive for what they bring. They're double the price of Kabalites, but all they get from it is an extra attack.

5 Trueborn with 4 Blasters is only 5pts less than 5 Scourges with 4 Blasters, yet the latter can deep strike, have better armour saves and a 6+ invulnerable.

And whilst there are certainly advantages to being in a transport, it does mean putting even more eggs into one basket (for about the same cost as 2 units of Blaster-Trueborn in Venoms, you can get 3 units of Blaster Scourges).

I mean, they probably won't be awful or anything, but I think there are far better ways to get Darklight weapons.


@Archon Vitcus wrote:
Reavers still good?

The good news is that they're almost certainly the best Cult unit. The bad news is that that isn't saying much.

They're very fast but they don't really do a whole lot. A 50/50 chance of inflicting a single mortal wound on the charge isn't going to scare anyone. Nor are a couple of S4 AP-1 attacks. And as far as Blaster platforms go, they're really not efficient. They're also not resilient, since Jink is gone, and a couple of wounds with a 4+/6+++ really won't last long.

You can probably do worse but I really wouldn't count on them to do much.

@Archon Vitcus wrote:

Kabalites over wyches or a mix of units?

Depends whether you want to play Kabal or Cult. There's basically no mixing of subfactions now, so each of your detachments has to be all-Kabal, all-Cult, or all-Coven. Anything else and neither will get their army bonus.

Anyway, to answer your question, I prefer Kabalites but not by much. Literally the only reason to take them is their Blasters. Poison is utter garbage in this edition and the models with Splinter Rifles are just ablative wounds for the one guy with a Blaster.

Wyches aren't awful at tying up infantry (assuming they don't have too many attacks), and their offensive ability has improved a little. The problem is that tying up infantry isn't a particularly useful function in the age of Imperial Knights.

To be honest, I wouldn't expect much out of any of our troops. Use whichever ones you want.


@Archon Vitcus wrote:

Ravagers still our go to heavy support or do Reapers? and talos compete for the slot?

As above, you can't have Ravagers and Talos in the same detachment, so they're basically never competing for the same slot. Ravagers are our go-to shooting unit, Talos and Grots are the core of any Coven list.

@Archon Vitcus wrote:

Venoms over raiders or a mix of both?

Neither are amazing, though mainly because we don't really have much stuff worth transporting.

Raiders are definitely the better choice, though, as they actually have meaningful guns. In contrast, Venoms might as well be flinging obscenities at the enemy for all the effect their guns have.

As with much of the above, using Venoms over Raiders is unlikely to cripple your list or anything, but when you use a lot of poor/mediocre units, the flaws start to add up. Believe me, I know.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Sat Dec 15 2018, 00:09

Man, I will totally go to bat for Venoms being amazing. Flayed Skull Venoms filled with Kabalites and backed up by Doom and Jinx are utterly terrifying. They're not the best unit we have but I think they're easily top 5.

(Opinions about our transports vary in this edition, needless to say.)
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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Sat Dec 15 2018, 03:05

@Soulless Samurai wrote:

@Archon Vitcus wrote:

Ravagers still our go to heavy support or do Reapers? and talos compete for the slot?

As above, you can't have Ravagers and Talos in the same detachment, so they're basically never competing for the same slot. Ravagers are our go-to shooting unit, Talos and Grots are the core of any Coven list.

Let me correct you on one thing good sir, One is allowed to add Ravagers and Taloi in one Detachment, but as you meantioned earlier, it is not wise as ypu loose those sweet Obsessions.

As to your overall view on Dark Eldar, I don’t agree on you that we have a bunch of mediocre units, especially Warriors and Wyches. Each have the role, be it tying up other units then Knights( even in the age of Knights, not everyone plays them) or adding fire support.

But maybe its just a different kind of play style.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Sat Dec 15 2018, 09:50

@Burnage wrote:
Man, I will totally go to bat for Venoms being amazing. Flayed Skull Venoms filled with Kabalites and backed up by Doom and Jinx are utterly terrifying. They're not the best unit we have but I think they're easily top 5.

To my mind, it's not a good thing when an "amazing" transport has to be propped up by psychic powers from an entirely different army in order to be effective.


@Crazy_Irish wrote:

Let me correct you on one thing good sir, One is allowed to add Ravagers and Taloi in one Detachment, but as you meantioned earlier, it is not wise as ypu loose those sweet Obsessions.

Yeah, it's very much a 'you technically can but you really wouldn't want to' situation.


@Crazy_Irish wrote:

As to your overall view on Dark Eldar, I don’t agree on you that we have a bunch of mediocre units, especially Warriors and Wyches. Each have the role, be it tying up other units then Knights( even in the age of Knights, not everyone plays them) or adding fire support.

Each have their role, sure, but not all roles are equally useful. Not everyone plays Knights, but there are a hell of a lot of other units that Wyches are all but worthless against - whether because they can fall back in spite of the nets or because any attempt to charge them will result in the Wyches being obliterated by Overwatch fire or by the unit's own melee.

Yes, Warriors add fire support. But so do Ravagers, Razorwings and Voidravens. The difference being that those units actually get good guns. Warriors, meanwhile, are allowed 1 good gun per 5 men, and then the rest of the squad are stuck with their water pistols.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Sat Dec 15 2018, 12:27

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
Man, I will totally go to bat for Venoms being amazing. Flayed Skull Venoms filled with Kabalites and backed up by Doom and Jinx are utterly terrifying. They're not the best unit we have but I think they're easily top 5.

To my mind, it's not a good thing when an "amazing" transport has to be propped up by psychic powers from an entirely different army in order to be effective.

Meh. Synergy is synergy in this edition, doesn't matter the source. Harlequin Skyweavers drastically increase in effectiveness thanks to Doom and Jinx as well, but they're hardly being "propped up" by them.

I would strongly prefer it if we had native HQs that were a) as mobile as Farseer and Warlock Skyrunners, and b) capable of providing buffs as strong as Doom and Jinx, but until that happens I think leaving the option on the table is silly.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Sat Dec 15 2018, 15:12

@Burnage wrote:
Meh. Synergy is synergy in this edition, doesn't matter the source. Harlequin Skyweavers drastically increase in effectiveness thanks to Doom and Jinx as well, but they're hardly being "propped up" by them.

I think we might have to agree to disagree on this front.

To my mind, an army shouldn't need to go to an entirely different faction (even if it is an ally) in order to obtain synergy.

I agree that Skyweavers can benefit from Doom/Jinx without being propped up by them - but that's the whole point. Skyweavers are already good units with good weapons (basically Haywire Scourges+2). Any synergy they get from external sources is just a bonus.

In contrast, whilst Venoms aren't horrible on the defence, their offensive capability is terrible. Even when fully upgraded and in optimum range, you're still only looking at 4 wounds with no AP and damage 1 (and that's assuming you're not shooting at a vehicle or Titanic unit). It wasn't great in 7th and a massive increase in wounds and FNP, along with its range being halved, has not improved matters. Hence, Venoms need synergy/buffs to be worthwhile at all.

@Burnage wrote:

I would strongly prefer it if we had native HQs that were a) as mobile as Farseer and Warlock Skyrunners, and b) capable of providing buffs as strong as Doom and Jinx, but until that happens I think leaving the option on the table is silly.

I'm not saying that such options should be off the table when building an army. Rather that it seems wrong to include them when evaluating individual units. Especially since many people want to play the army they like (in this case Dark Eldar) without using allies.

This is also one of the main issues with allies in general (and, to a lesser extent, buff powers). Do you balance DE units based around the idea that they will have access to Doom and Jinx? If so, then they'll perform okay when using Farseer allies but will otherwise be overcosted. If you assume that they won't have access to Doom/Jinx, then you end up with units that work fine on their own but which become overpowered when given access to those powers.


Anyway, I certainly don't disagree on the HQ front (especially with regard to mobility). Although, as far as buffs go, I'd settle for HQ auras that weren't limited to affecting about 3 units in the codex. Razz

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Archon Vitcus
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Sun Dec 16 2018, 09:07

Thanks for the responses guys, I'll have a tinker about with lists since I've got pretty much everything to field kabals, cults and covens all separately.

Also, I've got a bunch of Kymera from beast pack Death Star, they worth to use as screening units?
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Sun Dec 16 2018, 13:12

There's no real way to buff them up in terms of a screen. I love the models but for 120pts you get 12 of them doing 3A each, 1W t4 5++ that I've yet to find a use for even with the stratagem or a beast master support they get reroll 1s to hit and reroll charges within 6". I dunno, they just don't fill a role for me.
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Gherma
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Sun Dec 16 2018, 13:58

I would like to add my two cents about Reavers and Reapers, two units that I currently use in my list (with good success).

Reavers are not particularly killy, but very usefully strategically. The ability of advancing 26 (18+Cool and charging after that allows almost always for a first turn charge, which is very useful to stop big guns from shooting, and if they are armed with blasters (or heat lances) they cannot be ignored.
They have no invul anymore, but T5 (with proper drug), 2 wounds and power from pain makes units of 6 or more Reavers very hard to remove. If you have a couple of units it will take to your opponent one or two turns to bring them down... which means one/two turns of safety for your Ravagers.

Reapers are generally inferior to Ravagers, due to the casual amount of shots and the heavy weapon rule, but they have one big pro: they can be used as heavy support in coven and cult detachments (Ravagers are Kabul only), adding flexibility to your army. Also, with 5 S6 attacks they are not bad in close combat.
I currently use a Coven spearhead with two talos and a reaper, very useful to get one extra command point and to support my Ravagers!

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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Mon Dec 17 2018, 03:01

If you're bringing access to Doom and Jinx then every DE unit will benefit from it. And if you're bringing Doom you're likely bringing Guide, too, and I'd be shocked if I'd ever be thinking, "hmmm....what's the best thing to cast Guide on since I've already Doomed that key unit and I really want the opponent to be terrified of me? Hmmmm....this Venom?"

I think no. Venoms might be better against a target that's Doomed and Jinxed, but my Ravagers and/or Taloi would likely be even more threatening.

Hell, I'd rather Guide a Raider with just one good gun over a Venom with two mediocre guns.
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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Mon Dec 17 2018, 03:55

@nerdelemental wrote:
If you're bringing access to Doom and Jinx then every DE unit will benefit from it. And if you're bringing Doom you're likely bringing Guide, too, and I'd be shocked if I'd ever be thinking, "hmmm....what's the best thing to cast Guide on since I've already Doomed that key unit and I really want the opponent to be terrified of me?  Hmmmm....this Venom?"

I think no. Venoms might be better against a target that's Doomed and Jinxed, but my Ravagers and/or Taloi would likely be even more threatening.

Hell, I'd rather Guide a Raider with just one good gun over a Venom with two mediocre guns.

Guide only works on craftworld units. So unless you've brought something to use it on, you're better to pick a different power, as the farseer himself is not likely to be worth using it on.
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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Mon Dec 17 2018, 13:07

Good call!
So we're back to Venoms are Venoms and they get better with Doom, but so do our more reliable vehicles with their far superior guns. Well played!
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Mon Dec 17 2018, 16:21

@nerdelemental wrote:
Good call!
So we're back to Venoms are Venoms and they get better with Doom, but so do our more reliable vehicles with their far superior guns. Well played!

A Ravager's guns are better overall, but it is worth noting that effectiveness can vary depending on what you're firing at. Against single-wound models that either have no save (e.g., Jinxed Boyz) or an invulnerable save, a double Splinter Cannon Venom will equal the damage of a triple Disintegrator Ravager despite being almost half the cost. Against T6 and above this is true for multi-wound models as well!

Like, I'm not saying Ravagers or Talos suck here. They very obviously don't. But just because some of our units are better doesn't mean that Venoms aren't also really, really good as well.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Mon Dec 17 2018, 16:56

@Burnage wrote:

A Ravager's guns are better overall, but it is worth noting that effectiveness can vary depending on what you're firing at. Against single-wound models that either have no save (e.g., Jinxed Boyz) or an invulnerable save, a double Splinter Cannon Venom will equal the damage of a triple Disintegrator Ravager despite being almost half the cost. Against T6 and above this is true for multi-wound models as well!

That's not quite true. Against anything T6 with a 2+ save, Venoms are outright worse (even with 2 splinter cannons at optimum range they still only inflict 2/3 of a wound, compared to 8/3 wounds from a Ravager - so even 2 Venoms are still only inflicting half as much damage).

In order for the Venom to be equal to the Ravager, the unit in question would have to have T6 and a 3++ save.

What's more, if the T6 target is a vehicle, then the Venom is going to be utterly abysmal against it.

Look, I want to like Venoms. I really do. I own 5 of the things and I absolutely adore the models. However, especially when you don't have Eldar psykers to back them up, I just think there are far too many enemies that they're ineffective against.  

What's more, as transports they suffer from a pitiful capacity, combined with an increase in the minimum size of all our elite units. If you want a character to ride in a Venom, then you're no longer able to carry:
- Mandrakes
- Incubi
- Trueborn
- Wracks

I'm glad that you've clearly had great success with them but to use a scientific analogy, I'm afraid I've thus far been unable to replicate your results. Sad

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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Mon Dec 17 2018, 18:02

I also own more than my share of both Raiders and Venoms.
When the Codex first dropped I ran both almost equally - sometimes both in the same list, sometimes slanted heavily toward one or the other. It really didn't take too long to figure out that the Raider just had more answers. More protection. More blocking of movement. Splinters suck this edition. Even if I actually want splinters against horde armies, I have enough on the 15-30 kabalites riding around on the Raiders.

I do still sometimes put an Archon and the simple vestiges of a court in there. But those days are nearly behind me, too, as I put my Archon on the table surrounded by Ravagers so they can get his aura.

I guess I *might* still consider using Venoms for min squads of Wracks. Maybe.

If Incubi units were playable I might think of running them in min squads in a Venom, too, but probably not. And I don't currently play them so that's moot, too.

edit: I just don't typically bring my Craftworld to back up my Drukhari. DE just don't seem to be missing anything they bring. Psykers, for sure. But if I did bring a Farseer (and that's exactly what I'd bring if I thought I needed something), he'd for sure have Doom. But it wouldn't to make Venoms terrifying - it'd be to make my millions of Disintigrators and blasters more terrifying than ever. I would be saying, "that Knight of yours? It's Doomed. Code: I'm destroying it. Clue: not with Venoms."
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Mon Dec 17 2018, 18:26

I promise I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just fundamentally curious about why there's such a difference of opinion here. I've won several small tournaments with lists that are based around Venoms, they're one of the units that has caused the most angst for our opponents on the wider internet, and Venom spam has also won several large tournaments - see, for example, Nick Gower's lists on Blood of Kittens - so it's very confusing to look on here and see them getting panned as not worth running. They feel utterly invaluable to me.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Mon Dec 17 2018, 19:41

@Burnage wrote:
I promise I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just fundamentally curious about why there's such a difference of opinion here. I've won several small tournaments with lists that are based around Venoms, they're one of the units that has caused the most angst for our opponents on the wider internet, and Venom spam has also won several large tournaments - see, for example, Nick Gower's lists on Blood of Kittens - so it's very confusing to look on here and see them getting panned as not worth running. They feel utterly invaluable to me.

For what it's worth, whilst we obviously disagree on the power/value of Venoms, you haven't come across as being at all 'jerkish'. Smile


That aside, I'm not sure what else I can say beyond my own experiences. I've played against Marines (of many sorts), Primaris, Orks (pre-Codex), Knights, Tau, Tyranids, Admech and in every case my experience was basically the same:
- I found Venoms irritating in the list-building stage because of the aforementioned issues regarding transport capacity. I'd love to be able to put an Archon in a venom with some Incubi or Mandrakes (even if only for fun/flavour) or to have the option to put a Haemonculus with 4 Wracks. However, none of those are permitted. If I want an Archon in a Venom (which I do), then he's only ever allowed to ride with his Court or with other HQ choices. Yawn.
- I found their firepower to be basically nonexistant. Never once did I think 'wow, that Venom did a lot of damage'. But I frequently thought 'why do I even bother rolling?'
- I've found Venoms to be extremely fragile. It's rare for any of my Venoms to survive past turn 2. This means that their open-topped rule rarely gets much use and exacerbates their lack of firepower (since they only get to shoot 1-2 times per game). This is especially annoying if I took a melee squad, as it means they frequently end up stranded in no-man's land.
- I didn't find them particularly fast. Or, more accurately, they don't seem significantly faster than units with far better armour/saves. A Venom moves at 16" but so does a heavily-armoured Eldar tank. Hell, even the smaller Imperial Knights can move 14". I can get behind trading armour for speed and firepower, but Venoms appear to have traded their armour for nothing and more nothing. Neutral

I should probably clarify that I never use Eldar allies. So if Venoms need Doom/Jinx to be effective, then I'm afraid it's of little value to me.


Anyway, I appreciate that you've obviously had far more success with Venoms than I have, so do you want to relate your own experiences? How long do your Venoms typically survive? What targets have you found Venoms effective against?

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Mon Dec 17 2018, 21:02

I think a lot of my playstyle choices might lead to the difference in how satisfying Venoms feel for me to use. Going to spoiler most of this discussion, since it's quite lengthy.

Spoiler:
 
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Mon Dec 17 2018, 22:29

Thanks for replying. I'll spoiler my answer as well.

Spoiler:
 

EDIT: Just realised that you're (presumably) using double Splinter Cannons on your Venoms? Because I only take 1 (I usually want to close to rapid-fire range anyway, so 10pts for 2 extra poison shots seems like a bit of a waste). I take it you find Splinter Cannons a good deal, though? (I ask because I'm wondering if it's something else I should try.)

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Tue Dec 18 2018, 10:20

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
EDIT: Just realised that you're (presumably) using double Splinter Cannons on your Venoms? Because I only take 1 (I usually want to close to rapid-fire range anyway, so 10pts for 2 extra poison shots seems like a bit of a waste). I take it you find Splinter Cannons a good deal, though? (I ask because I'm wondering if it's something else I should try.)

Yes, because it turns their optimal range from 12 inches to 18, which keeps them a little bit safer. It's not just 2 extra poison shots.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Tue Dec 18 2018, 10:54

@Burnage wrote:
I promise I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just fundamentally curious about why there's such a difference of opinion here. I've won several small tournaments with lists that are based around Venoms, they're one of the units that has caused the most angst for our opponents on the wider internet, and Venom spam has also won several large tournaments - see, for example, Nick Gower's lists on Blood of Kittens - so it's very confusing to look on here and see them getting panned as not worth running. They feel utterly invaluable to me.

Because sometimes you're facing a bunch of vehicles and boats with only poison carrying guys with mostly poison can only sit on objectives for so long before they get the business end of Knight Titan.

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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Been a while    Tue Dec 18 2018, 12:37

Burnage, I also never thought you were being a jerk on any level, nor defensive. Good discourse, and I've been wondering about the divide of opinion just as you have.
My experiences are very similar to the Samurai's.
More than "Venoms don't perform" is that Raiders just *do*. Transport capacity, far better gun, more durable, far more board control utility.

I've speculated (prior to this discussion) that many people still run Venoms because they're used to running Venoms. Last edition they were tits.

TeenageAngst's point may be really valid, too, if you are in a meta without a lot of vehicles. I'm in a fairly mechanized meta. Even when dudes come out and hit the table, everything has invul saves like crazy in 8th. Splinters are just having fun rolling 30 dice to narrow it down to 5 saves and hoping against the math odds that you end up getting 1 wound to stick.
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GENERAL DRUKHARI DISCUSSION

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