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Gizamaluke
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Gizamaluke

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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 09 2018, 11:18

I think the issues with our units are rules based rather than points based. Making Drazhar 90pts isn't gonna make him any less poop but you may see him taken to form double Kabal Batallions more for instance. I feel like they need to take another look at some units rules wise like Hellions paying for hit and run when they have no bonus to charge, Incubi being more expensive than any other aspect warrior with no niche and Khymera not really doing anything apart from looking sexy.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 09 2018, 11:19

Yeah, I was expecting nerfs but I'm not unhappy that we didn't get them. I am disappointed that we also didn't get any buffs to our overcosted units.

I'm also confused by some of the decisions made. Why is Eldrad the same price as a Farseer Skyrunner now? Why didn't tactical marines get buffed? Why did cultists get a points increase, but Guard infantry squads didn't? Why did Harlequins have their best weapon buffed?

A lot of the changes are sensible, but there are some real head scratchers in there.
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 09 2018, 11:30

The guys on table top tactics felt a bit like they were pushing primaris for GW in their review, something along the lines of "Make the move to Primaris now guys they're really really good, and look veterans got cheaper so turn your tacs into Veterans it's so fluffy!". So that may be GWs reasoning behind not changing tactical marines, they're trying to ween people off them and giving cheap vets as the "retirement" option
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 09 2018, 11:34

@Gizamaluke wrote:
I think the issues with our units are rules based rather than points based.

I don't disagree.

However, unless GW actually intend to fix their rules, then point changes are still the best we can hope for.

@Gizamaluke wrote:
Making Drazhar 90pts isn't gonna make him any less poop but you may see him taken to form double Kabal Batallions more for instance.

What if he was 60pts?

@Gizamaluke wrote:
I feel like they need to take another look at some units rules wise like Hellions paying for hit and run when they have no bonus to charge, Incubi being more expensive than any other aspect warrior with no niche and Khymera not really doing anything apart from looking sexy.

As above, I'd very much like that as well.

While they're at it, it would be nice if our HQs weren't entirely reliant on artefacts and warlord traits to not be utter garbage. And the Archon costing 70pts base whilst other, vastly superior HQs have been reduced to 70pts or less is just moronic. And his aura is utter garbage.

Also, in our speed-based army, which is your favourite HQ? The one on foot, the one on foot, the one on foot, the one on foot, the one on foot, or - just to spice things up - the one on foot?

We've also got the Court of the Archon, of which maybe 1 model is actually worth taking, along with the mess of rules that mean you can't take 4 of the same model, you can't take 1 Court per Archon if they're in the same detachment, and the fact that the Archon's aura is useless on his own Court.

Again, I'd love for all these units to actually get rules-based fixes. I'd much prefer that Archons were actually made worth their 70+pt cost, rather than just being made cheaper.

However, if GW has no intention of actually fixing their rules (which seems pretty likely), then reductions in point costs is the only thing we can hope for.

And getting neither rule fixes nor point reductions on poor units is just disheartening.


@Burnage wrote:
Why did cultists get a points increase, but Guard infantry squads didn't?

I think the Warhammer page actually gave a clue to this in one of their articles. They mentioned Cultists being taken disproportionately over other troop choices, which was seen as an issue. my guess is that, since CSM (and variants thereof) are seen as the 'main' troops for Chaos, GW didn't like the fact that Cultists were supplanting them. Hence, they increased the cost of Cultists in an effort to make CSMs more appealing.

(They may also be reluctant to reduce the cost of CSMs, as they're supposed to be Elite troops, but that's just speculation on my part.)

In contrast, Infantry Squads are the main troops of IG, so their being taken in plentiful quantities is seen as much less of an issue.

Now, GW could have made Infantry Squads less appealing to Soup armies by restricting CPs to the faction that generated them. However, they clearly have no interest in addressing Soup, so I'm guessing that option wasn't on the table either.

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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 09 2018, 11:37

CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 Comb0810

Here's my excel of the Aeldari changes, 18pt twin shuricat windriders are a bit crazy
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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 09 2018, 12:02

to me the most disappointing thing is that they addressed forgeworld again but did not reduce the Tantalus...
Seeing all the point reductions on all "big" units across all armies it just breaks my heart watching a terribly overcosted but supercool model, indirectly become even more overcosted Sad
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 09 2018, 12:19

I still run my Tantalus frequently but whereas I used to justify it's 400pts cost as "well I'm saving 380pts of venoms" in the index, now it really is a fun pick. Taking it back down to 350pts would be a good spot for it.
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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 09 2018, 12:30

@Gizamaluke wrote:
I still run my Tantalus frequently but whereas I used to justify it's 400pts cost as "well I'm saving 380pts of venoms" in the index, now it really is a fun pick. Taking it back down to 350pts would be a good spot for it.

yeah i run it too frequently in friendly games but that 400 cost can really not be justified
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 10 2018, 09:03

@Burnage wrote:
Why did Harlequins have their best weapon buffed?


b.c ALL meltas got cheaper for ALL armies, thats why.

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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 10 2018, 10:19

What about the Heat Lance? We should have 9pt heatlances, 18pts for twin on talos to keep in line with other people's melta (-3pts nearly across the board). Would certainly make it more attractive on my Reavers.
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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 10 2018, 11:18

@Gizamaluke wrote:
What about the Heat Lance? We should have 9pt heatlances, 18pts for twin on talos to keep in line with other people's melta (-3pts nearly across the board). Would certainly make it more attractive on my Reavers.

but but... we are the most balanced faction in the game we dont need point adjustments dont you see?
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 10 2018, 11:45

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
Why did Harlequins have their best weapon buffed?


b.c ALL meltas got cheaper for ALL armies, thats why.

Still smacks of Harlequins being ignored to me. A 6 inch range difference is nowhere near enough to justify a weapon that has half the strength, one less AP, half the potential damage range and a weakness versus vehicles compared to a Fusion Pistol being roughly the same price, let alone 50% more expensive.

It's a relatively small thing but it's such an obvious issue that it not getting fixed (and actually worsened!) has seriously irritated me.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 10 2018, 12:49

I also love that other armies are now paying even less for Fusion/Melta pistols (7pts), whilst our Blast Pistols still cost 10pts - in spite of the fact that they're objectively worse.

One might think that if Fusion Pistols were going to cost 7pts, 5pts might be a reasonable cost for the same weapon but minus the Melta rule.

But, no, apparently that flaw just make Blast Pistols even more valuable. Rolling Eyes

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 10 2018, 13:06

Was there an opportunity to fix a few sub-par but potentially great units (lookin at you hellions) that GW ignored?
yes, yes there was.
Did our dissies, talos, grots, arcons, blasters or haywire blasters go up in price as many thought they would?
no. no they did not.
Instead of complaining, this is where we shut up, and walk away, because i would not put it past GW to say 'You are complaining there were no price adjustments? fine, take this!" and nerf us to the bottom of the pile where we sat for YEARS.

No news is good news.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 10 2018, 13:16

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Was there an opportunity to fix a few sub-par but potentially great units (lookin at you hellions) that GW ignored?
yes, yes there was.

And therein lies the problem.

It's not even the fact that GW didn't address all of the issues with DE, it't that they didn't address *any* of the issues with DE.

@Skulnbonz wrote:

Did our dissies, talos, grots, arcons, blasters or haywire blasters go up in price as many thought they would?

Seriously, are you just throwing darts at unit/wargear names? Blasters? Haywire? Bloody Archons? Who was seriously suggesting that these would go up in price?

@Skulnbonz wrote:

Instead of complaining, this is where we shut up, and walk away, because i would not put it past GW to say 'You are complaining there were no price adjustments? fine, take this!" and nerf us to the bottom of the pile where we sat for YEARS.

No, this is where *you* shut up and walk away if that's what you want. Feel free to bugger off in silence.

But what you don't get is to tell me (or any other posters for that matter) what we are and are not permitted to complain about.

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Rodi Sikni
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 10 2018, 13:24

The problem is that meanwhile the players of other factions "fight" for their factions and claims upgrades on their armys, the DE community do the opposite.

Our codex has 30 datasheets, and at least 11 (4 from the court, 3 beast, beastman, incubi, drazhar and cronos) needs some urgent kind of change on rules or points, and other units and equipment need a little reajustment on points. But just a few days ago you could read people saying that ravager and disintegrators needs more points and that our codex is the best balanced when all the lists are a spam of Talos and/or Grotesque.

As far as I know, this is the only forum that GW consults at some point to receive some feedback from the community, and that is the reason why I enter, but my perspective on the future of the faction is bleak.
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 10 2018, 15:42

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Was there an opportunity to fix a few sub-par but potentially great units (lookin at you hellions) that GW ignored?
yes, yes there was.
Did our dissies, talos, grots, arcons, blasters or haywire blasters go up in price as many thought they would?
no. no they did not.
Instead of complaining, this is where we shut up, and walk away, because i would not put it past GW to say 'You are complaining there were no price adjustments? fine, take this!" and nerf us to the bottom of the pile where we sat for YEARS.

No news is good news.

I don't think GW is vindictive enough to do that to DE. It seems more like with everyone else getting points reductions on units that rarely see play they've received more choice in their list building (windriders and striking scorpions now look promising) and everyone else has possibly been brought up to our level. The problem with that is we didn't get the same treatment and nerfs that would be healthy for the game as a whole For DE didn't go through either. So we are stuck this way til Christmas 2019 now? Or until the next wave of codex start rolling out. Which is kind of dull as at the moment we have a few star units and many more that could use a little boost if only to shake up list building.

Just kind of feels like neglect rather than a calculated move.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 10 2018, 15:44

@Soulless Samurai wrote:


No, this is where *you* shut up and walk away if that's what you want. Feel free to bugger off in silence.

But what you don't get is to tell me (or any other posters for that matter) what we are and are not permitted to complain about.

Oh Jesus, are you an infant?
First, complain about what you like, but be careful what you wish for.
Second, if you think people were not saying haywire, grots, talos,and yes, even ARCONS (not enough of a tax for the vect stratagem) were discussed about price increases, and in one glorious instance, a change to prophets of flesh ENTIRELY was put forth, go back and bury your head in the sand. It is better than where you have it stuffed now.

And finally- I have run DE since the beginning. From the auto pin raiders to the 2 dark lance sniper squads for 100 points. Know how many times DE could be called competitive in tournaments?
TWICE
One build was the farseer/ Baron/ Dog list, and the other is now.
Not just talos and grots. Kabals are valid as well. So bitch and moan all you like, I will keep WINNING with the lists we have now. You keep CRYING and stomping your little feet in the dust and demanding more.

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 10 2018, 15:47

@Gizamaluke wrote:
Which is kind of dull as at the moment we have a few star units and many more that could use a little boost if only to shake up list building.

Just kind of feels like neglect rather than a calculated move.
Now this I can agree to.
I think Hellions, Incubi, Beastrpacks, the court and reavers need some serious love.
I am just not willing to get it at the expense of nerfing talos, Grots and our vehicles losing the -1 to hit for the "always in cover" rule.
Our army works now, when for so many years it didn't. We can ask for changes, but we may not like what we get. (the court changes from LAST CA come to mind. I mean, really?)

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 10 2018, 15:51

I mean, the Court changes weren't bad, they were just super underwhelming.

Much as how I'm feeling about this year's Chapter Approved. Yes, it's good that we avoided (explicit) nerfs. It also sucks that we didn't get any buffs. Overall I am, once again, very much underwhelmed.
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 10 2018, 16:19

At the risk of throwing more fuel on the fire in the guise of being helpful, here's an even better spreadsheet of the CWE changes.

CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 15444210

Look at all that green on the premiere choice for Ynnari armies...
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 10 2018, 16:20

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Oh Jesus, are you an infant?

Is it infantile to point out that you do not get to decide what I do or do not write?

The definition must have changed significantly since I last checked it.

@Skulnbonz wrote:

First, complain about what you like, but be careful what you wish for.

Noted.

@Skulnbonz wrote:

Second, if you think people were not saying haywire, grots, talos,and yes, even ARCONS (not enough of a tax for the vect stratagem) were discussed about price increases, and in one glorious instance, a change to prophets of flesh ENTIRELY was put forth, go back and bury your head in the sand. It is better than where you have it stuffed now.

Wow, you really did wake up on the wrong side of bed, didn't you?

I guess when you have a stick shoved that far up your arse, it can really limit your mobility.

@Skulnbonz wrote:

And finally- I have run DE since the beginning. From the auto pin raiders to the 2 dark lance sniper squads for 100 points.  Know how many times DE could be called competitive in tournaments?
TWICE

And yet you still endeavour to lick GW's boots. Neutral

@Skulnbonz wrote:

One build was the farseer/ Baron/ Dog list, and the other is now.
Not just talos and grots. Kabals are valid as well. So bitch and moan all you like, I will keep WINNING with the lists we have now. You keep CRYING and stomping your little feet in the dust and demanding more.

I'm astonished that you can even see your keyboard without your massive ego obscuring it. Rolling Eyes

I also find it hilarious that you say I'm the one crying, yet here you are winging like a child because someone else dared to voice a dissenting opinion. lol!

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 10 2018, 17:32

@Soulless Samurai wrote:


And yet you still endeavour to lick GW's boots. Neutral
Ok, now this I take umbrage at.
We can differ on weather or not this unit or that should see modification, but this... THIS is a low blow.
I HATE GW. I Like and enjoy their game. Huge difference.
GW's policies toward Dark Eldar are not soon forgotten. We were abused, neglected and ignored. We were thrown to the wolves against lash spam, invisibility and marines that stomped us into the dirt every single game.
Their pricing policy they enacted recently is both deceitful and underhanded. Their draconian IP policies are laughably disgusting.
They. Are. Scum.
But damn, they can make a fun game.

So please don't think because I remember what we were compared to what we are now, and I don't want to ever go back to the "dark days" that I am accepting of GW's policies or even them as a whole.
We were ignored by them when we sucked. We are now ignored by them when we don't. Being glad they didn't mess us up is not the same as licking their boots.

@Soulless Samurai wrote:


I'm astonished that you can even see your keyboard without your massive ego obscuring it. Rolling Eyes

It was easier after I moved all my trophies Very Happy

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 10 2018, 19:32

@Skulnbonz wrote:

Ok, now this I take umbrage at.
We can differ on weather or not this unit or that should see modification, but this... THIS is a low blow.

Yes, because you've been a fountain of politeness thus far. Wink

@Skulnbonz wrote:

I HATE GW. I Like and enjoy their game.  Huge difference.
GW's policies toward Dark Eldar are not soon forgotten. We were abused, neglected and ignored. We were thrown to the wolves against lash spam, invisibility and marines that stomped us into the dirt every single game.
Their pricing policy they enacted recently is both deceitful and underhanded. Their draconian IP policies are laughably disgusting.
They. Are. Scum.
But damn, they can make a fun game.

Well, it's nice to know we have that in common, at least. Smile

@Skulnbonz wrote:

We were ignored by them when we sucked. We are now ignored by them when we don't. Being glad they didn't mess us up is not the same as licking their boots.

On the one hand, I can see where you're coming from. On the other, it seems a bit late for that policy. Maybe back in 5th when we had a plump, fat codex, full of units and options.

But now that our codex has been cut to the bone, it seems like the time when Laissez-faire would have been appreciated has rather passed us by.

I'll grant you that DE can at least compete in tournaments for the first time in about 3 editions, and I can see why you'd be concerned about that changing. However, outside of raising point costs out of sheer spite (admittedly something I wouldn't put past GW), there seems to be very little left they they could realistically take from us. Our mini-HQs are all gone, most of our special characters are gone, Harlequins were pilfered, Bloodbrides have effectively been replaced by regular Wyches, Trueborn were confined to the index, the vast majority of our wargear is gone.

Again, I really can understand you not wanting to rock the boat after GW left the good DE units intact. And, to be perfectly honest, I'm not keen to see DE get hit with the neft-bat either (especially if it's effectively just to balance Ynnari armies or Doom). However, I'm also reluctant to send the message that Dark Eldar players are happy for GW to basically put half our codex through a shredder, so long as a few of the remaining units are on the upper echelons of the power curve.


@Skulnbonz wrote:
It was easier after I moved all my trophies Very Happy

lol!

Well played, sir.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: CA2018 Preview - Matched Play   CA2018 Preview - Matched Play - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 10 2018, 19:40

First off, CA2018 was clearly printed prior to our codex. The time delay was probably due to printing scheduling and localization through numerous translations. Our codex was probably written with CA2018 in hand, and it would explain the lack of points changes for Harlequins who came out after its release as well. It would also explain why the Knights didn't really budge in spite of them being a flagrant issue.

Now, the fact they wait THAT long to update the rules is a problem. We're left in this weird perpetual limbo because we know GW will probably fix the problem *eventually* but isn't doing it right away. We're always waiting and hoping something will change because either this faction is too strong or that one is too weak or these rules are broken, and with every change the meta churns.

Quote :
GW's policies toward Dark Eldar are not soon forgotten. We were abused, neglected and ignored. We were thrown to the wolves against lash spam, invisibility and marines that stomped us into the dirt every single game.

GW's policies towards *the consumer*. GW doesn't hate this or that or any faction, they are only ever actively malicious against the person on the other side of the cash register. This is the thing that grinds my gears the most about this hobby, GW gets away with absolute BS that would give EA and Ubisoft wet dreams and their community backs them up on it every step of the way. I get to look like a jerk because I dare to call them out on such avaricious practices as meta churning, removing entire factions from being playable in the game, forcing us to spend money on rules errata, FAQing rules based entirely on knee-jerk reactions, flagrantly anti-competitive trademark enforcement, reworking entire rulesets without warning, making terrible quality resin models that they're still peddling as playing pieces for a tabletop game, and many others.


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