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HERO
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 15 2018, 23:55

Just to provide a bit more context, I would love to see 15 point Dark Lances, but I just don't think that will be a thing. I will def eat crow if this switches though! (same with Bright Lances).

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 16 2018, 00:00

I don't know. Nobody takes dark lances except sometimes in raiders and 1 occasionnal lance in a ravager. And never as a heavy weapon for our infantry. There is clearly a problem with our lance. Lowering it to 15 pts could fix it.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 17 2018, 00:27

@dumpeal wrote:
I don't know. Nobody takes dark lances except sometimes in raiders and 1 occasionnal lance in a ravager. And never as a heavy weapon for our infantry. There is clearly a problem with our lance. Lowering it to 15 pts could fix it.

Agreed, I'd love to see it too. Same with Bright Lances.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 18 2018, 11:47

@HERO wrote:
How is it that people are STILL saying that Dissies will go up in price? lol

What logic tree are you people following to say that Dissies will go up and NOT Ravagers?


B/c everywhere that has the option for either DL or DC, all players take DC, Raiders, RWJF, and Ravagers.

When all viable options for either or is 1 option, thats the problem not the vessel for those options.

I cant even understand why you would think the Ravager alone will go up when many players are playing with RWJF's with DC's as well as Ravagers and even Raiders.......

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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 18 2018, 18:27

I personally tend to do DL on my RWJF.

I know the math, and statistically the Dissie is the better choice. (so it is completely illogical). I just like the diversity I guess.

Or really when it is 2 rather than 3, I feel like the math is somewhat equal between the two, and it give me the chance of hitting harder (and yes, I know equal chance of hitting softer too. LOL)
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HERO
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2018, 00:54

@amishprn86 wrote:
@HERO wrote:
How is it that people are STILL saying that Dissies will go up in price? lol

What logic tree are you people following to say that Dissies will go up and NOT Ravagers?


B/c everywhere that has the option for either DL or DC, all players take DC, Raiders, RWJF, and Ravagers.

When all viable options for either or is 1 option, thats the problem not the vessel for those options.

I cant even understand why you would think the Ravager alone will go up when many players are playing with RWJF's with DC's as well as Ravagers and even Raiders.......

Because are RWJFs or Raiders w/ DCs winning tournaments and part of ever Aeldari splash? I don't think so.

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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2018, 03:30

I doubt we will see many if any price hikes including ravagers. Rumors have already made the rounds that Knights are not going up in cost. GW is weary about hiking peoples stuff and pissing them off. The most likely hike is kabalytes. I'd expect nearly all the hikes this go around to involve cheap troops. Cultists and Infantry squads are rumored to hike to 5ppm, no way fire warriors and kabs stay at 6 given that data. I'd expect GW to LOWER costs over 90% of the field rather then increasing things. As I said, it pisses off less folks and sells yet more product. I'd expect wych cult to see price cuts almost across the board. Possibly wracks drop another point. I'll call it now, the ravager and planes don't get touched. They only work so savagely in tournament lists because of doom. Dissy ravagers even with the muse are not that great verse tanks and monsters, which makes them competitively priced, but not broken. DE is sitting pretty because of poor core rule design more then anything. Toughness is less relevant then ever, and we don't waste points on it nearly anywhere, hilariously not even on talos. That and the fact that we use invulnerable saves and have fly up the wazoo is why we are creaming everyone.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2018, 15:58

Red Corsair’s logic makes sense to me. It would be much smarter from a sales standpoint to make everything else better rather or more points efficient rather than nerfing the stuff that is efficient, I think as more rumors come out, Knights will be the bellwethers. If Knights are mostly unchanged or only slightly increased, than I think DE will mostly be left alone. Maybe dissies get a slight increase but everything else is left as is. But if Knights, particularly the Castellan get a huge increase of 100+ points then I fear we’re in for a sound beating with the nerf bat.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2018, 16:00

If Kabalite Warriors go up in price, could they maybe be given weapons that are less godawful?

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2018, 17:36

Kabals dont need to go up, they already are bad enough lol

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2018, 17:52

The idea that Kabalites and Splinter weaponry are bad seems crazy to me. They're 6 points for something that hits on a 3+ at minimum and can wound almost anything in the game on 4+; that's really strong offense for their price point.

Being able to take them in squads of five for dirt cheap slot filling and objective holding (or stratagem unlocking) is also icing on the cake.
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2018, 17:56

@Burnage wrote:
The idea that Kabalites and Splinter weaponry are bad seems crazy to me. They're 6 points for something that hits on a 3+ at minimum and can wound almost anything in the game on 4+; that's really strong offense for their price point.

Being able to take them in squads of five for dirt cheap slot filling and objective holding (or stratagem unlocking) is also icing on the cake.

yeat they die if anything glances in their general direaction, mortars come to mind, and because we are not (yet) a horde army kabalites have no ld shenanigans
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2018, 18:13

@Burnage wrote:
The idea that Kabalites and Splinter weaponry are bad seems crazy to me. They're 6 points for something that hits on a 3+ at minimum and can wound almost anything in the game on 4+; that's really strong offense for their price point.

Being able to take them in squads of five for dirt cheap slot filling and objective holding (or stratagem unlocking) is also icing on the cake.

But they dont do anything. Thats why they are cheap, if you have 5 or 50, they dont do enough for what they are.

It takes a 5man unit in Rapid fire range (or a 10man out of RF range) to kill 1 Marine, heck they cant even kill 2 Firewarriors.......... 10 shots is 1.5 Firewarriors and they are basically the same cost. A 10man unit Rapid fire only IG only kills 4, 60pts to kill 16pts. 1 Shredder is 1.86wounds, 1 shredder does more than 5 Kabals.

Kabals are cheap for a reason, they are easy to move wounds.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2018, 18:42

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
The idea that Kabalites and Splinter weaponry are bad seems crazy to me. They're 6 points for something that hits on a 3+ at minimum and can wound almost anything in the game on 4+; that's really strong offense for their price point.

Being able to take them in squads of five for dirt cheap slot filling and objective holding (or stratagem unlocking) is also icing on the cake.

But they dont do anything. Thats why they are cheap, if you have 5 or 50, they dont do enough for what they are.

It takes a 5man unit in Rapid fire range (or a 10man out of RF range) to kill 1 Marine, heck they cant even kill 2 Firewarriors.......... 10 shots is 1.5 Firewarriors and they are basically the same cost. A 10man unit Rapid fire only IG only kills 4, 60pts to kill 16pts. 1 Shredder is 1.86wounds, 1 shredder does more than 5 Kabals.

Kabals are cheap for a reason, they are easy to move wounds.

You have to look at the stats both ways, if you want to do a fair comparison.

10 Splinter shots does 1.66 wounds to Fire Warriors.
10 Splinter shots does 2.22 wounds to Guard.
10 Splinter shots does 1.11 wounds to Marines.

Yeah, on the face of it that doesn't sound great.

But 10 Fire Warrior shots do 1.85 wounds to Kabalites.
10 Lasgun shots do 1.38 wounds to Kabalites.
10 Bolter shots do 1.85 wounds to Kabalites.

Kabalites cost 85% of the Fire Warrior unit, yet in a duel deal 90% of the damage. Against Guard (which is objectively a bad match-up given the Guard's T3!) they cost 150% of the points but also deal 160% of the damage. Versus Marines they cost 46% of the price but deal 60% of the damage. Relatively speaking, against any of the units that you've mentioned Kabalites aren't coming off badly at all. And this is without taking into account that Kabalites get to take full advantage of open topped transports!

They're not an incredibly strong unit - of course they're not, they're 6 point troops - but as disposable chaff, board control units or offensive distractions they're much better than a lot of us give them credit for and I seriously don't think they need any kind of buffs at all.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2018, 19:07

@Burnage wrote:
The idea that Kabalites and Splinter weaponry are bad seems crazy to me. They're 6 points for something that hits on a 3+ at minimum and can wound almost anything in the game on 4+; that's really strong offense for their price point.

Anything in the game... except for vehicles. Or Knights. Or Titanic Creatures (which, incidentally, can be no larger than a Tervigon). All of those can only be wounded on 6s.

What's more, whilst they wound enemies on 4s, that includes T3 guardsmen, gaunts, and other enemies that basic bolters would wound on 3s.

Moreover, their weapons lack any AP and most T5+ targets have good saves and multiple wounds. Hence, you're almost certainly going to be better off firing heavier weapons at those targets, rather than plinking away with Kabalites.

This would normally leave Kabalites free to shoot the lighter targets... except that they suck at that role, too. Because, as above, they're stuck wounding even the most fragile of targets on 4s.

In essence, Poison is as much a detriment as a benefit in this edition. Arguably more so.

What's more, unlike many other races, we're starved of infantry-support abilities. And many of the support abilities we do have are based on buffing melee ability... which Kabalies are atrocious at (even fully buffed).

Finally, whilst they're currently cheap in and of themselves, they're also reliant on having transports in order to actually do anything.

As it stands, Kabalite squads might as well consist of 1 Blaster and 4 ablative wounds.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2018, 22:38

I dont think they need a buff, but they dont need a points increase, thats the point.

Poison in 8th is terrible unless its 2+ poison, or you have full re-rolls, which kabals have neither.

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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2018, 22:45

What do you think of the rumours that -1 to hit sub factions will become count as in cover

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2018, 23:02

I dont think its real, its the only counter to massive re-roll aura shooting. If the power creep of shooting didnt go up 3 fold it would be a problem. But in 8th when you can re-roll all hits/wounds and break armor with double the shots, you need protection that mitigates it.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2018, 23:26

@amishprn86 wrote:
I dont think its real, its the only counter to massive re-roll aura shooting. If the power creep of shooting didnt go up 3 fold it would be a problem. But in 8th when you can re-roll all hits/wounds and break armor with double the shots, you need protection that mitigates it.

Doesn't that just make all the other subfactions irrelevant though?

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2018, 23:46

Multi detachments mean you can have both. Also its there to be there to counter those lists, but itself can be counter easily with fast moving, or melee heavy lists like DE, Smash Captains, Custodes, etc...

Over all its not as strong as it seems, its only strong for casual games if the other player isnt ready for it, but again so is Gun-lines. Its more of a checks and balance trait.

The problem is Alaitoc can have -3 pretty easily, thats the only problem -1 trait. I can see Alaitoc changing to add a rule (can be more than -2 to hit)

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2018, 23:58

The -2 in some cases are the only thing that's keeping the meta in check from being wholly shooty armies.

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 22 2018, 01:23

Am I the only one that thinks Ravagers aren't overpowered? Like at all?

They're decent for their points sure, but I've found they melt nearly instantaneously when anything even remotely powerful breaths in their direction (autocannons come to mind.) It's got a really large vertical profile, so getting LOS blocking cover is difficult, and while a 36" range isn't terrible, I'm often forced to charge them into the fray to draw a bead on backline artillery.

The BH Ravager spearhead is taken not because it's overly powerful, but rather as a steady and cheap means of getting CP regen, AOV, and that generally isn't terrible as a bonus. If you removed the Warlord Trait and Strat, Ravagers would fall off the competitive scene.

Try running Ravagers as Flayed Skull and try to justify a 10-15 point increase on the hull.

I agree with other posters that Dissies need to be brought in line with Lance's, and to leave the Ravagers alone

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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 22 2018, 02:12

Man this thread is an echo chamber in regard to dissys. They are not in need of a hike at all. They struggle to put wounds on high toughness targets even with the muse. Again, it's only with Doom that they get so nasty at the current pricing. The responsible fix is to make doom only effect Asuyani, which incidentally also fixes the skyweaver haywire math.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 22 2018, 09:30

@Red Corsair wrote:
Man this thread is an echo chamber in regard to dissys. They are not in need of a hike at all. They struggle to put wounds on high toughness targets even with the muse. Again, it's only with Doom that they get so nasty at the current pricing. The responsible fix is to make doom only effect Asuyani, which incidentally also fixes the skyweaver haywire math.

They will hike it only b.c no one plays DL's. GW doesnt care if its slightly under power, they see "Players are picking 1 option and not the other, so nerf that option"


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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved   Chapter Approved - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 22 2018, 09:53

@TheBaconPope wrote:
Am I the only one that thinks Ravagers aren't overpowered? Like at all?

They're decent for their points sure, but I've found they melt nearly instantaneously when anything even remotely powerful breaths in their direction (autocannons come to mind.) It's got a really large vertical profile, so getting LOS blocking cover is difficult, and while a 36" range isn't terrible, I'm often forced to charge them into the fray to draw a bead on backline artillery.

The BH Ravager spearhead is taken not because it's overly powerful, but rather as a steady and cheap means of getting CP regen, AOV, and that generally isn't terrible as a bonus. If you removed the Warlord Trait and Strat, Ravagers would fall off the competitive scene.

Try running Ravagers as Flayed Skull and try to justify a 10-15 point increase on the hull.

I agree with other posters that Dissies need to be brought in line with Lance's, and to leave the Ravagers alone

I actually agree with you.


Quite honestly, I think the issue is not with Ravagers but with Doom being able to buff Dark Eldar units.

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