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 IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get?

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Cegorach86
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Cegorach86

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PostSubject: IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get?   IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get? I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 03 2018, 02:10

So Ive been playing since about 6 months before 8th dropped. I have a rare disease called army-itis. Not sure if you have heard of it Razz

I think Ive played most every  army (Ive played Space marines,but haven't necessarily played against salamanders) Ive also played against most every army.  

Except Dark Eldar.  Ive been mulling over playing Dark eldar for a while, but no one i know plays them, so I cant borrow an army or play against it..  Anywho..  Im waiting for the codex to come to read through it..seem battle reports (MWG, TT, SS) etc..

Id like to get a list that assuming I can successfully "learn to play"  Would be a respectable/formidable list..  However the problem is with the units im most interested in that may not be doable... So loosely what a 2k points army might look like (in my head ) is:


  • 1 tantalus full of what 15 CC and 1 hq buff

  • x raiders warriors (blaster boats) (torn between max number of blasters? (anti tank, assault weapon) vs anti-infantry)

  • Y raiders of CC  (depending on restrictions/faq) things like incubi, hellions?

  • Z flyers and/or ravagers


Assuming the Tantalus gets taken out, Id just add more x,y,z. Also assuming that appropriate HQs would be in appropriate transport..

I guess the models Im not so interested in would be ones that look like Talos primarily, mandrakes kind of.. birds seem fun equivalent of nurglings?

With or without the Tantalus, am I too far off?

I tend to favor "max" size units vs alot of 5 mans....  So 5 - 10 mans > 10 - 5 mans (to me, and this maybe why I probably loose more than I win).

-----
How I imagine I might play it... Birds my start deployed on objectives in my zone, Transports depending on contents run up to hide and deal with chaff/meq others run up to blast away at Tanks and related things... maybe a sniper boat if there is someway to do that (beyond that relic for archon?)
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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get?   IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get? I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 03 2018, 21:16

Welcome to the dark side. We don't have cookies - unless you steal them from someone else.

Going from what you are saying, it seems you favor Kabal over Cult and Coven? Just trying to pin that down. Also - you seem to like a lot of CC and mobility?

So I guess these are the questions - Preference of:

Shooting or CC or Balanced?

Durability or Mobility or Hard to hit?

In-your-face-range or Play-keep-away or Mid range?

Also - How CP heavy do you like to play?

Finally - the Tantalus - it is good, but not something I am a huge fan of. Some people love it. I simply think that the firepower it can give can be better spread out elsewhere, and the transport is not really needed
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Cegorach86
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PostSubject: Re: IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get?   IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get? I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 03 2018, 21:57

@Faitherun wrote:
Welcome to the dark side. We don't have cookies - unless you steal them from someone else.

Going from what you are saying, it seems you favor Kabal over Cult and Coven? Just trying to pin that down. Also - you seem to like a lot of CC and mobility?

So I guess these are the questions - Preference of:

Shooting or CC or Balanced?

Durability or Mobility or Hard to hit?

In-your-face-range or Play-keep-away or Mid range?

Also - How CP heavy do you like to play?

Finally - the Tantalus - it is good, but not something I am a huge fan of. Some people love it. I simply think that the firepower it can give can be better spread out elsewhere, and the transport is not really needed

I love stealing cookies Smile

Shooting or CC
I tend to be balanced or want to lean towards shooting.   One of my emperors children tactics (though probably not in a competitive sense due to points cost) is to deep strike a unit of 10 termies, with combi-plasma, a termie lord...  I pop in, at rapid fire range... overcharge + endless cacaphony = fun, then i charge the chaff. I also run Zara in some non competitive games.... so its ~1400pts shooting + 600points of zara.

Durability or Mobility or Hard to hit?
That is kind of a hard   One thing I did appreciate about the harlequins (which I dont do soup armies, and no longer have harlequins anyway) was one of their new chapter tactics, where you advance up the field, and pistols are changed to assault... so Im moving 24 inches or something stupid like that, and then open top transport full of fusion guns.   I ultimately always got mowed down.

I love mobility, but I think with how I wind up playing by default - durability / hard to hit are probably better fits...  I cant seem to really master the "fire and fade", i typically want to always do "fire and delete the enemy"  I might be prone to adopt the EC termie tactic, but instead teleport in hemonculus and a max squad of grotesques..

In-your-face-range or Play-keep-away or Mid range?
IM really torn, but probably 75% keep away, and 25% in your face..If I had to choose one, probably mid-range gunline

Also - How CP heavy do you like to play?
Honestly, since I usually dont do alot of minimum size squads  I dont think ive rarely had more than 10 CP, and never had a CP farm of any kind..  It seems like soup is the only thing on  the menu, but for better or worse I dont do soup, ever.
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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get?   IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get? I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 03 2018, 22:34

Alright - so, if i may - I'd suggest running Kabal and Coven. Don't like MSU or Soup - that is fine. Coven are your in-your-face units. Kabal are your more hang back and shoot.


Here is my first Idea on a list for you


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [64 PL, 1210pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment Attribute: Kabal of the Obsidian Rose

+ HQ +

Archon [4 PL, 79pts]: Huskblade, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter pistol

Archon [4 PL, 89pts]: Blast Pistol, Deathly Perfectionist, Huskblade, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Warlord (Archon)

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors [4 PL, 87pts]
. 7x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Splinter Cannon
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [4 PL, 87pts]
. 7x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Splinter Cannon
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [8 PL, 176pts]
. 15x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with heavy weapon (up to 1 for 10 models): Dark Lance
. Kabalite Warrior with heavy weapon (up to 1 for 10 models): Dark Lance
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Shredder
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Shredder
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

+ Heavy Support +

Ravager [7 PL, 130pts]: Dark Lance, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

Ravager [7 PL, 130pts]: Dark Lance, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

+ Flyer +

Razorwing Jetfighter [8 PL, 135pts]: Twin splinter rifle
. 2 Disintegrator Cannons: 2x Disintegrator cannon

Razorwing Jetfighter [8 PL, 135pts]: Twin splinter rifle
. 2 Disintegrator Cannons: 2x Disintegrator cannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Raider [5 PL, 81pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Shock Prow

Raider [5 PL, 81pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Shock Prow

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [43 PL, 790pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment Attribute: Prophets of Flesh

+ HQ +

Haemonculus [5 PL, 76pts]: Electrocorrosive whip, Splinter Pistol, The Vexator Mask

Urien Rakarth [5 PL, 90pts]

+ Troops +

Wracks [5 PL, 110pts]
. Acothyst: Electrocorrosive whip
. Wrack with special weapon (up to 1 for 5 models): Ossefactor
. Wrack with special weapon (up to 1 for 5 models): Ossefactor
. 7x Wracks

Wracks [5 PL, 110pts]
. Acothyst: Electrocorrosive whip
. Wrack with special weapon (up to 1 for 5 models): Ossefactor
. Wrack with special weapon (up to 1 for 5 models): Ossefactor
. 7x Wracks

Wracks [5 PL, 110pts]
. Acothyst: Electrocorrosive whip
. Wrack with special weapon (up to 1 for 5 models): Ossefactor
. Wrack with special weapon (up to 1 for 5 models): Ossefactor
. 7x Wracks

+ Heavy Support +

Talos [18 PL, 294pts]
. Talos: Macro-Scalpel, Macro-Scalpel, Stinger Pod
. Talos: Macro-Scalpel, Macro-Scalpel, Stinger Pod
. Talos: Macro-Scalpel, Macro-Scalpel, Stinger Pod

++ Total: [107 PL, 2000pts] ++


What this list does:

Kabal:
The two boats full of guys are moving up towards mid-field. They are your fire support base. Fairly durable, and able to re-position as needed - mainly to bring their firepower to bear. Your 20 man team is going to burn 1 Cp to DS in. They will get targeted, and whnen they fail their morale check, you can pop the Obsidian Rose Strat to allow you to shoot with the models that would flee (the Shredders). If they kill a single enemy model, no one flees...

One Archon runs with the raiders, one with the Ravagers that hand back and shoot. Razorwing flanks and snipes any characters left unprotected

Moving down to the Coven:

Wracks are there for objective grabbing. They are stupidly annoying to remove at T5 (With Hamey support) and 4+ invul 6+ FNP. That and their Strat to allow you to completely refresh the unit at full strength and move it to another board edge.

Talos are amzingly difficult to remove, and Urien wants to run with them. 24 str 8 attacks, hitting on a 3+, at Ap -2 and 2 damage.... that is going to hurt a tad. They are fairly resilent as well with a 4++/6+++ at T7, 7 Wounds, and the ability to regen d3 wounds for 1 CP provided a Hamey or Urien is nearby.

Speaking of CP - this list nets you 13. You are burning 1 right off the bat for DS the Warriors. You are also burning 1 to give a Hamey or Urien a Warlord trait in addition to the one your Archon takes. So we have an effective 11 CP (maybe +d3 if you make Urien a Warlord too). Most of the other strats you want to use are all 1 and 2 CP, so you can get a fair bit of mileage out of this list.

I tried to stick to your preferences of larger units (although I prefer more of an MSU style myself). I also tried to replicate, to some extent, you DS bomb.

Finally, I know you said a 3k list. I only built this to 2k so you can play with it and see what parts you like / don't like before committing to the last 1k.
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Cegorach86
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PostSubject: Re: IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get?   IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get? I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 05 2018, 00:19

@Faitherun wrote:
Alright - so, if i may - I'd suggest running Kabal and Coven. Don't like MSU or Soup - that is fine. Coven are your in-your-face units. Kabal are your more hang back and shoot.

What this list does:

Kabal:
The two boats full of guys are moving up towards mid-field. They are your fire support base. Fairly durable, and able to re-position as needed - mainly to bring their firepower to bear. Your 20 man team is going to burn 1 Cp to DS in. They will get targeted, and whnen they fail their morale check, you can pop the Obsidian Rose Strat to allow you to shoot with the models that would flee (the Shredders). If they kill a single enemy model, no one flees...

One Archon runs with the raiders, one with the Ravagers that hand back and shoot. Razorwing flanks and snipes any characters left unprotected

Moving down to the Coven:

Wracks are there for objective grabbing. They are stupidly annoying to remove at T5 (With Hamey support) and 4+ invul 6+ FNP. That and their Strat to allow you to completely refresh the unit at full strength and move it to another board edge.

Talos are amzingly difficult to remove, and Urien wants to run with them. 24 str 8 attacks, hitting on a 3+, at Ap -2 and 2 damage.... that is going to hurt a tad. They are fairly resilent as well with a 4++/6+++ at T7, 7 Wounds, and the ability to regen d3 wounds for 1 CP provided a Hamey or Urien is nearby.

Speaking of CP - this list nets you 13. You are burning 1 right off the bat for DS the Warriors. You are also burning 1 to give a Hamey or Urien a Warlord trait in addition to the one your Archon takes. So we have an effective 11 CP (maybe +d3 if you make Urien a Warlord too). Most of the other strats you want to use are all 1 and 2 CP, so you can get a fair bit of mileage out of this list.

I tried to stick to your preferences of larger units (although I prefer more of an MSU style myself). I also tried to replicate, to some extent, you DS bomb.

Finally, I know you said a 3k list. I only built this to 2k so you can play with it and see what parts you like / don't like before committing to the last 1k.

Thank you for that list,

On the Talos topic How do grotesques(Despite them being ~ $24 a model Suspect ) and scourges do?
On fighters- How does the voidbomber do - specifically the bomb?

Its been a while since I used open tops, I assume there is no re-roll benefit from a (embarked/disembarked) archon to embarked units?

Is there a general rule or thought process when thinkinga bout "how much tank vs infantry shooting"? (I guess besides simply looking at meta and seeing, oh- everyone does knights)..
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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get?   IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get? I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 05 2018, 12:57

@Cegorach86 wrote:

Thank you for that list,

On the Talos topic  How do grotesques(Despite them being ~ $24 a model  Suspect ) and scourges do?

No worries - I love making lists. Grotesques are amazing as well. There are several threads comparing the two units (such as this one http://www.thedarkcity.net/t17672-grots-vs-talos), but the general consensus was that  Grots were for anti-infantry roles and tanking damage while talos for more jack-of-all trades unit - able to threaten all. The loss of fly bonuses to charging hurt the talos a tad, but it is still nice for the in the movement phase

Scourges are quite nice, albeit fragile. My Blaster Scourges have always rolled poor for me for some reason, but my haywire and shredder units do amazing and are less than 100 pts for 4 special weapons! They can really make an impact, but I have never seen them live past 2 turns on the board

@Cegorach86 wrote:


On fighters- How does the voidbomber do - specifically the bomb?
Some people say the bomber is just as good as the fighter. I love my fighters. I take my bomber when I am trying to play down to an easier opponent. The bomb being once per game is just so lack luster - do I want to put 2 wounds on a tank or kill 4 guardsmen?  And then you have to pay for the missiles, which it always wants to take. S9 lances can be nice, but overall I find it to be disappointing.


@Cegorach86 wrote:


Its been a while since I used open tops, I assume there is no re-roll benefit from a (embarked/disembarked) archon to embarked units?
That is correct. Aura's do not impact units embarked, even if they are embarked with the Archon. Also note: embarked units may not fire overwatch. If the raider (or venom) is in CC, and it falls back, while it may shoot, the embarked may not (work around is they disembark before it moves, then they may act normally).


@Cegorach86 wrote:


Is there a general rule or thought process when thinking about "how much tank vs infantry shooting"?  (I guess besides simply looking at meta and seeing, oh- everyone does knights)..

I used to have a rule for that, back in 4th ed. Now though, it's kinda more a feel thing.... Especially with how much cross-over between roles there can be. I would say, most of our infantry weapons (CC and shooting) are good for taking out other infantry. As such, other than a few shredders mixed in, I would focus more on darklight. Also, a lot of people like to do full disentegrators on their vehicles. I like to have a few dark lances there too. I used to run three ravagers, 2 with full dissys and 1 full lance. However, this meant that my opponents would see which was the greater threat and focus on it. Now I run Prow as lance on each and sides as dissys. This makes target priority much harder (and looks cool to boot).
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Cegorach86
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PostSubject: Re: IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get?   IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get? I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 05 2018, 22:55

Okay, so a few different things then... Suppose I was to loosley break up a 2k point list like this.

2 Kabals ~1500 pts (750 each)
1 _____ ~500 pts

If I wanted that 500 pts for assassins, it looks like I would be going "The Dark Creed" / "An Esoteric Kill, Delivered From Afar (2 CP)"?

If I wanted to go night lords (lots of stacking leadership debuffs) is that possible?

IF I didn't want to put in a harlequin patrol (which is all I own of them) but wanted a small 500 pt "harlequin like" experience It seems wych cult --> cult of red grief? ( waiting on codex to arrive, so relying mostly on battle-scribe)
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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get?   IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get? I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 05 2018, 23:17

That is doable - although you will be limiting your armies a bit - you are thinking of 2 Kabals and a cult or and a coven? Why and What two Kabals?

As for LD shenanigans - I find those best when mixed with CWE and Harlies. They can be challenging to pull of but quite powerful.

Can get -3 LD from Coven, -1 from Phantasm Launcher, -1 from CWE power horrify, -1 from Hemlock, -1 from Masque, and -1 from Harley power shards of light for a total of -8. This requires a fair bit (too much in my opinion), but the Eldar Rainbow can do the most LD stuff in the game. We also have Mind War (CWE) which does mortals = to the difference of LD + D6, Hallucinogen Launcher (Harly) that does d3 mortals if it beats opponents LD, and the Torment Grenade Strat (DE) that does d3 mortals if you beat LD.

This all is a lot of work for what amounts to rather minimal return - but can be fun to do nerveless. That being said, you stated you wanted to not soup it up, so with DE alone you are a looking at a max -4 (which isn't to bad).


If you wanted to dump 500 points into harly-esq wyches, Red grief is the most similar. I would ask as well if you were looking at mounting the girls up or foot-slogging them or going in on bikes?

Finally, your Esoteric Kill from afar is a very lack-luster strat imho. It is restricted to Hamey units, so unless you do run the Tantalus, the only real shooting unit they have is Talos. Even then - it's lackluster. If you wanted to go full on character sniping with it.... I guess you could do 6 heat lances... but heat lances are so lack-luster for their main role right now that after you did that one-trick-pony, they would have a rather useless gun.



So - all that rambling to ask - what two Kabals, why two Kabals, and how do you foresee running them and the wyches?
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Cegorach86
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PostSubject: Re: IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get?   IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get? I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 05 2018, 23:42

oh I dont know about necessarily 2 Kabals, just perhaps opening up a little possibility, was kind of thinking from the standpoint of how final detachments kind of work out, and If in other builds I was close to having enough in the list to break up into a second detachment...

I do want to refrain from soup, but once I feel like I understand DE, I do have basically a patrol detachment of harlequins.. no intention in investing in CWE- unless I got a LoW for fun games...

but DE native- coven and phantasm are only stuff it seems then
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Cegorach86
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PostSubject: Re: IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get?   IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 06 2018, 04:32

Okay, Sorry I usually build armies in "unbound" in battle-scribe.  So Here is a 2nd list ive been thinking about:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [64 PL, 1225pts] ++

Detachment Attribute: Kabal of the Obsidian Rose

+ HQ +

Archon [4 PL, 79pts]: Deathly Perfectionist, Huskblade, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter pistol, The Djin Blade, Warlord (Archon)

Archon [4 PL, 72pts]: Splinter pistol, Venom Blade

+ Troops +

3 x Kabalite Warriors [4 PL, 78pts]
. 7x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Splinter Cannon
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Shredder
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

+ Heavy Support +

3 x Ravager [7 PL, 140pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

+ Flyer +

Razorwing Jetfighter [8 PL, 135pts]: Twin splinter rifle
. 2 Disintegrator Cannons: 2x Disintegrator cannon


+ Dedicated Transport +

3 x Raider [5 PL, 95pts]: Dark Lance, Splinter Racks



++ Battalion (Faction) (Aeldari - Drukhari) [48 PL, 676pts] ++

Detachment Attribute: Cult of the Red Grief

+ HQ +

2 x Succubus [4 PL, 50pts]: Archite Glaive, Splinter pistol


+ Troops +

3 x Wyches [2 PL, 40pts]
. Hekatrix: Hekatarii blade, Splinter pistol
. 4x Wych


+ Elites +

3 x Mandrakes [8 PL, 96pts]: 5x Mandrake, Nightfiend


+ Dedicated Transport +

2 x Raider [5 PL, 84pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Shock Prow


++ Total: [112 PL, 1901pts] ++










Basically that should set me up with 13 Command points at start. The Battalion starts off usual, in transports,  (5 CP Battalion detachment x 2 + 3 starting CP )

mandrake squads start in deepstrike, wyches in transports (could add in another transport!).. These race up the field.  Other mandrake squad starts in deep-strike.   Raiders for this wych cult I intend to do first turn charge with (hence the upgrades)

Im hoping with all the firepower that essentially by the time its either time for me to get out of transport and charge and deep strike in that chaff / deepstrike blockers have been dealt with...

Vs a lower non space marines, Im hoping to force some good(for me) leadership checks. Ultimately I might make a few on marines, but with re-rolling failed morale that might be questionable.  Tau wise, their "whole army gets to overwatch" thing I think the same strategy applies, but with alot more concern for their overwatch shenanigans.


Last edited by Cegorach86 on Wed Nov 07 2018, 03:29; edited 1 time in total
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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get?   IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 06 2018, 13:35

Ok - so overall a rather decent list - but some things could use some tweaking.

Archons - they are running rather bare bones - at least push your warlord up to have some decent gear. I would look at giving him Deathly Perfectionist trait instead (all attacks do an extra damage), a blast pistol or blaster if going index style, and at least his husk blade if not the djin blade relic. Your other one can babysit the ravager.

Warriors - why no special weapons? In groups of 10 you get two specials and a heavy - make use of em

3 Ravagers on triple lances is not bad - but so far your only dissy shots are from your flier. I'd look at either some raider or ravagers taking some - which frees up some points too.

Speaking of freeing up points - you have a lot of Phantasm spread out. You have 8 of them - 24 points worth. That is a lot. I'd at least cut that in half. Probably drop all the squad upgraded ones and keep your Archons and Raiders one.

Moving on to your Raiders in your Wych cult - you wanted them to hit in CC yet left off the shock prow! 1 mortal wound on a 4+ is actually fairly good - especially for only 1 point. Trophies and Snares are both, imo, lackluster.

Splinter racks are not a terrible upgrade, but I do think outside of Flayed Skull they are too expensive

So, putting that all together:

Removing:
Phantasm x4 (12 points)
Trophies x2 (4 points)
Snares x2 (4 points)

Exchanging 6 lances for dissys (30 points)

You already had 8 to play with - that will give you 50 point here to mess around with. 80 if you drop the racks as well.

One bit of food for thought too - dropping the hellions (who die stupidly fast) could net you 15 wyches - which would be enough to push you to a battalion.


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Cegorach86
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PostSubject: Re: IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get?   IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get? I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 07 2018, 03:42

I made most of your edits I think (and edited my original post) and reduced mandrakes to min squad level. Added the wyches and another succubus, so now i should have 13 CP to start.

plus 99 pts left over. (another transport?, more wyches, more mandrakes, more cookies and drugs?) I think this is kind of a nice buffer zone as it gives me a few options- as In I could drop a little more things, and then add another jet fighter..
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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get?   IF you had enough money to buy a 3000 point DE army- what would you get? I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 09 2018, 01:33

Nice - from there, just play around and see how it feels to you - what you do and don't like
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THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

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