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 Tormentor vs Bonding Knife Ritual or Daemonic Icon

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Koldan
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PostSubject: Tormentor vs Bonding Knife Ritual or Daemonic Icon   Fri Oct 26 2018, 09:17

What exactly happens if Tormentor and either Bonding Knife Ritual or Daemonic Icon are also triggered.

Tormentor: the unit fail the test and one model flees.
Daemonic Icon: no one flees and the unit gains models
Bonding Knife Ritual: the unit passes the test

How is this handled correctly?
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Gorgon
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PostSubject: Re: Tormentor vs Bonding Knife Ritual or Daemonic Icon   Fri Oct 26 2018, 14:25

Both bonding knife and daemonic icon ignore the result of the morale test on a 6 or 1, respectively, and so tormentor doesn't come into effect.

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Tormentor vs Bonding Knife Ritual or Daemonic Icon   Fri Oct 26 2018, 14:38

@Gorgon wrote:
Both bonding knife and daemonic icon ignore the result of the morale test on a 6 or 1, respectively, and so tormentor doesn't come into effect.

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I'm not sure thats quite right.

The Bonding Knife doesn't "ignore" the the result of the morale Test, it just automatically passes.
"If you rolla 6 when taking a Morale test for this unit, the test is automaitcally passed."
That doesn't ignore anything, so it becomes a conflict between automatically passing and automaitcally failing accoridng to to conflicting rules.

Daemonic Icon also doesn't say that it ignores anything, it just says that no models flee. The unit still fails the test, its just that no models flee, so theres a conflict between two rules. Acording to Tormentors the unit will still automatically fail the test, but theres conflict between whether no models flee or one model flees.

But neither rules says that the the test is ignored.
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Gorgon
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PostSubject: Re: Tormentor vs Bonding Knife Ritual or Daemonic Icon   Fri Oct 26 2018, 16:01

Ignore might not have been the right word. How about interrupts the process and replaces the remaining process with the knife/icon rule, and the interrupt comes into play after the dice are rolled but before the result is processed, and tormentor would come into effect during the dice result processing.

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Tormentor vs Bonding Knife Ritual or Daemonic Icon   Fri Oct 26 2018, 16:09

Thats not right either though.

All three rules apply on the result of a die roll.
Bonding Knife Ritual applies if you roll a 6, Daemonic Icon applies if you rolla  1, Tormentors happen if the roll (with modifiers) equals the Leadership value.
All three are worked out after the roll, not before, so would come at the same time and conflict.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Tormentor vs Bonding Knife Ritual or Daemonic Icon   Fri Oct 26 2018, 22:51

A "win save" and a "lose save" cancel themselve and a normal roll is made. I don't know for the fleing models, tough.
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Koldan
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PostSubject: Re: Tormentor vs Bonding Knife Ritual or Daemonic Icon   Sun Oct 28 2018, 19:53

Thanks for trying to answer, even though i must admit i don't understand the last answer.

For the other two, i know that bonding knife happens before modifiers and tormentor after modifier, but still effects don't interrupt, you can have multiple effects occure on one roll, else plasma weapons would not expolde on a natural 1, as the effect a 1 before modifiers misses, is also triggered. Or are you saying, that the natural 1 rule has also replaced the remaining process, and so the plasma cannot explode anymore because it is not a normal hit roll anymore? Or did i miss anything in your argumentation?

It boils down to does Tormentor overwrites the conflicting effects of the other rules, or if the other rules somehow forbid it?
I am not sure how GW planned it, and even though i was trying to find another similar case in the rules even before i put the question here, i have just now found one other similar problem, the stratagem of the obsidian rose vs tormentor, one rule states no one flees, the other says one model flees. So the effect is quite similar, but this time the order is the other way around, the stratagem is used after the roll so after tormentor, and i am pretty sure GW wants it to overwrite tormentor and anything with similar effects.
But i also don't see any reason for it to overwrite, except for common sense, in real life and in informatics the last one would win. But common sense is not always used in 40k rules.
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