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 9-12 unit Reaver screen viable with toughness, lighting reflexes, and prepared position?

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DingWop
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DingWop

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Location : Minneapolis

PostSubject: 9-12 unit Reaver screen viable with toughness, lighting reflexes, and prepared position?   Tue Oct 02 2018, 17:28

The question- is a 9-12 unit reaver screen with toughness drug and -1 to hit (lightning reflex) and improved save (either prepared position or hunt from shadows) a competitive plan?  (red grief and only adding grav talons)  Looking for pros/cons on the plan from more experienced denizens.  

The idea is that it would be very inefficient to shoot at the first turn, they screen a large front line, are positioned as far forward as possible, and if left alone could perform the flyover stratagem and tie up something shooty.  

List would be something like:

Black Heart Spear
Archon
ravagers with DC x3
razerwing with DC x1
raider with DC x2  

Flayed skull Battalion
Archon
Archon
(5) kab squads with blaster x6
venoms x4

Red Grief Outrider
Sucubus
(7) wyches with shardnet x1
Scourge with haywire/shredder x5
Reaver with grav x3
Reaver with grav x9

Based on my current models available and time before tournament the most likely alternative would be more scourge to fill out the outrider detachment.


Last edited by DingWop on Tue Oct 02 2018, 19:41; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : corrected prepared position effects save not to hit.)
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: 9-12 unit Reaver screen viable with toughness, lighting reflexes, and prepared position?   Tue Oct 02 2018, 18:51

Prepared Positions doesn't give a -1 to hit. It treats a unit as being in cover.

So they would have toughness drug, -1 to hit (with lightning reflexes) and a 3+ armor save. However this would cost you 4CP.

You could also use Hunt from the Shadows on them to give them a 2+ armor save, but that would be an additional CP.
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DingWop
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DingWop

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PostSubject: Re: 9-12 unit Reaver screen viable with toughness, lighting reflexes, and prepared position?   Tue Oct 02 2018, 19:40

Thanks, I have correct the post. Question is still the same, basically can a large reaver squad be competitive. Have people tried this and to what ends? My other options at this point would be multiple min sized reaver squads or more scourge instead. It seems to me that the large squad might justify being the target of lightning reflexes or eviscerating flyby, where the small squads probably wouldn't justify the use of the CP.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: 9-12 unit Reaver screen viable with toughness, lighting reflexes, and prepared position?   Tue Oct 02 2018, 20:18

@DingWop wrote:
Thanks, I have correct the post.  Question is still the same, basically can a large reaver squad be competitive.  Have people tried this and to what ends?  My other options at this point would be multiple min sized reaver squads or more scourge instead.  It seems to me that the large squad might justify being the target of lightning reflexes or eviscerating flyby, where the small squads probably wouldn't justify the use of the CP.      

Another thing to consider is that you might not even have to use lightning reflexes on the bikes. If you go first, then you won't have to spend CP on Prepared Positions either. My tactics for DE have usually always centered around putting a LOT of threats on the table, so that your opponent has to make choices on what to focus on. For example, your opponent might not see the bikes as much of a threat as say, 3 ravagers. However, if they ignore the bikes, then you will probably be in their face with them in round 1. If they ignore the ravagers to shoot down your bikes, then they'll have full-strength ravagers to contend with. Then there are transports full of kabalites/wyches/whatever else to consider as well (a raider w/ 2 blasters on board and a dark lance mounted is basically a mini-ravager).

Regardless, it would seem that expending 2CP for Prepared Positions if you go 2nd is a given.
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DingWop
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DingWop

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PostSubject: Re: 9-12 unit Reaver screen viable with toughness, lighting reflexes, and prepared position?   Tue Oct 02 2018, 20:50

Good points. The one game I've tried this I went second and the opponent spent almost all their resources removing the lightning reflexed bikes off the table. While I never got a chance to move/use them, which was a bit disappointing, they did tank the full first round for me. I felt that was reasonable outcome.
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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: 9-12 unit Reaver screen viable with toughness, lighting reflexes, and prepared position?   Tue Oct 02 2018, 22:06

I think Reavers are probably in a worse position since the FAQ, since they can't charge over units anymore. I think they're ultimately too fragile to be the best contender for Lightning Fast, but they can be deployed out of line of sight or in cover, and if you're putting them deep into enemy lines Stimm Addict for an additional +1T might be more sensible against some opponents since it carries across the whole battle round.
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Cerve
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Cerve

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PostSubject: Re: 9-12 unit Reaver screen viable with toughness, lighting reflexes, and prepared position?   Tue Oct 02 2018, 22:48

They works amazing if you prepare an aggressive list. If you go second, you can protect them pretty well as you said.
If you go first, you force your opponent into deploying his deepstriking units, or your list will eat him down

In fact, Reavers got a really big buff after these FaQs.
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Gorgon
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PostSubject: Re: 9-12 unit Reaver screen viable with toughness, lighting reflexes, and prepared position?   Wed Oct 03 2018, 03:53

Hunt from the shadows is infantry only unfortunately

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: 9-12 unit Reaver screen viable with toughness, lighting reflexes, and prepared position?   Wed Oct 03 2018, 10:26

@Gorgon wrote:
Hunt from the shadows is infantry only unfortunately

Sent from Topic'it App

But Prepare Positions it's not
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: 9-12 unit Reaver screen viable with toughness, lighting reflexes, and prepared position?   Wed Oct 03 2018, 15:13

@Gorgon wrote:
Hunt from the shadows is infantry only unfortunately

Ah damn. That's what I get for assuming that the 1d4chan description is verbatim.

However, that does mean that you can use it to get 3+ armor save hellions on turn 1.

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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: 9-12 unit Reaver screen viable with toughness, lighting reflexes, and prepared position?   Wed Oct 03 2018, 16:21

From a competitive standpoint, Reavers are barely worth taking at all (especially post-FAQ), and are certainly not worth investing any CP to protect them.

I'd say fill out with some Haywire Scourge instead if that's an option.

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DingWop
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PostSubject: Re: 9-12 unit Reaver screen viable with toughness, lighting reflexes, and prepared position?   Wed Oct 03 2018, 16:54

Thanks for the feedback. I'm leaning toward minimizing the exposure to reavers by using a min size squad or two (not using CP on them) and filling out the roster with Scourge and possibly a squad of mandrakes.
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closecraig
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PostSubject: Re: 9-12 unit Reaver screen viable with toughness, lighting reflexes, and prepared position?   Thu Oct 04 2018, 13:50

Don't really see how the FAQ has made them noncompetitive. Yes, they can no longer charge over units, but with a 26" movement before charging - you will certainly be able to get them into position.

I've had nothing but success when running a 12 man squad. I typically use them as a turn 2 charge and let the enemy concentrate on them for a bit. Like Krayd says, if someone concentrates on them, then my ravagers are free - However, if they concentrate on the ravagers then my bikes are free.

A unit of 12 requires a lot of attention before they become ineffective. I typically run mine with 4 blasters so that even with dwindling numbers - They can still perform.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: 9-12 unit Reaver screen viable with toughness, lighting reflexes, and prepared position?   Thu Oct 04 2018, 15:38

Aside from being mildly difficult to kill, what is this squad doing exactly? If It's tying up units then I guess it would work, but I'd far rather have two units of 6, or even 4 units of 3.

If they're supposed to do damage then I'm just not seeing it. 1/3 members of the squad being able to do 1 mortal wound 50% of the time is, what, 1 Mortal Wound per 6 squad members. And then you've got a few S4 AP-1 attacks. Doesn't seem like it's going to threaten any unit that you'd actually want dead.

And with the new rules, you can't even hop over a screening unit.

I don't know, I want to like Reavers but even before this FAQ they never really impressed me on the battlefield.

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closecraig
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PostSubject: Re: 9-12 unit Reaver screen viable with toughness, lighting reflexes, and prepared position?   Thu Oct 04 2018, 15:52

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
Aside from being mildly difficult to kill, what is this squad doing exactly? If It's tying up units then I guess it would work, but I'd far rather have two units of 6, or even 4 units of 3.

If they're supposed to do damage then I'm just not seeing it. 1/3 members of the squad being able to do 1 mortal wound 50% of the time is, what, 1 Mortal Wound per 6 squad members. And then you've got a few S4 AP-1 attacks. Doesn't seem like it's going to threaten any unit that you'd actually want dead.

And with the new rules, you can't even hop over a screening unit.

I don't know, I want to like Reavers but even before this FAQ they never really impressed me on the battlefield.

Sure, so with a single unit I can ensure that they'll also get the +1 toughness. I'll walk you through their turn process:

Turn 1 they get into position. This typically prompts the opponent to pour a large amount of firepower or move large portions of his army to deal with them. I'll often advance but if I can, will fire the blasters.

Turn 2, they'll jump out and attack alongside my other vehicles and scourges. They'll then typically charge.

Turn 3, quickly move to another part of the board to continue attacking.

I'll agree that grav talons is utter crap. But 4 blasters is not something to ignore, and on a unit that can move as much as it can, take as much damage as it can and still remain combat effective - Eventually the opponent has to deal with them.

Having a unit that you can rely on to distract them, forcing your opponent to engage the reavers rather than a dying ravager or scourges is important to me when determining my strategy for that battle round.
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DingWop
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PostSubject: Re: 9-12 unit Reaver screen viable with toughness, lighting reflexes, and prepared position?   Thu Oct 04 2018, 19:52

Appreciate the two different views from souless and closecraig on running large reaver squads. I may have to just try it out in some friendly games to see how they preform with my play style.

However I would make the case that *if* you can justify running reavers (the main point of thread) that for 3pts the grav talon is a very point efficient upgrade. For 3pts 50% of the time you can kill something like a marine. And if not a marine whatever you hit will likely net back more than 6pts. Regardless it should be easy to make up those points if you have already justified the reaver base cost. Grav talons would be one of my preferred upgrades after kitting out my archons and a fair saturation of phantasm grenade launchers.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: 9-12 unit Reaver screen viable with toughness, lighting reflexes, and prepared position?   Fri Oct 05 2018, 09:11

First of all, new FaQs acty boosted Reavers more than nerfing them. Yes they cannot fly in charge now but, seriously, who cares? Even before FaQs, screening units against fly guys were extremely simple, expecially against big flying units. I can see the nerf for BA Captains (just 1 32mm base model), but even screening from them were pretty simple.
So basically this nerf was only for Deepstriking on top of ruins (and charge then by 0), or for some little shenanigans between enemy units (like multicharges etc), but nothing that we can't play around.

But the AiP nerf+the Cover Strategem both really boosted any aggressive strategy. Deploy an army who can jump on you fast (with some shooting support) now force your opponent to deploy their DS units since the beginning, because risking to be the second player against an army that can charge in turn 1-2 means to play with no response at all. Think about a Chaos with Obliterators: it's like playing 2000 vs 1600 for your first turn, his first turn, and your second turn. I lived that with my Ravagers in my last game: I had to deploy them because my opponent were able to hit me hard in their first two turns, and I tought I weren't able to giving him a good response if I was going second. So I had to deployed them and that was a good choice (he goes firts, I lost 1 Ravager and half and 2 Venoms, but the rest were alive and I was able to counter punch him in my first turn).

Reavers are one of our best choices for an aggressive 1-2nd turn playstile (and they works pretty well as a distraction).
About their damages, I never buy blasters for them, keeping them cheap. If in RedGrief they're good in small units just for tying up, but I don't like it (too easy to counter them).
I prefer them from Cult of Strife, and with the +1A drug. Honestly when I play them they are always 8-12 in a single unit and I go for +1 Toughness only in specific games (like vs Tau for example). Otherwise, +1A is the way to go, 4 attacks in charges S4 ap-1 are nasty, T4 2W with Lightning Reflexes (and some times Prepare Positions) are just enough for me.
+1 to to the PfP is a good stratagem too (expecially when you're charging in turn 1-2).

And they just cost 19 per model. Pretty low for their disrupting potential. They will never been competitive just because they're not a safe unit. Not a lot of players will learn how to move and will take the risk. Sitting with Talos and shooting a lot of poison is just more safe.
Not better...just safe. Which I can understand
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